Legendaries

[Khalahn]

We've had many shadowmournes but never downed hc lk 25man. It worked the same with val'anyr and dragonwrath i think. You dont have to have completed the content to have access to the legendary. Sure, high-progress/world first guilds and the like have beaten the content long before they finished their first legendary, but for the average guild that isn't the case. So yes, legendary do support your guild.

---------- Post added 2011-09-22 at 06:30 PM ----------

Who claimed that? And where?

OP claims the MC legendaries were "end of Vanilla" in the OP.

[Liara]

We've had many shadowmournes but never downed hc lk 25man. It worked the same with val'anyr and dragonwrath i think. You dont have to have completed the content to have access to the legendary. Sure, high-progress/world first guilds and the like have beaten the content long before they finished their first legendary, but for the average guild that isn't the case. So yes, legendary do support your guild.

Firstly, that's why I phrased my sentence with "chances are".
Secondly, that still doesn't mean Legendaries are supposed to help the raid progress.
They are still acting as high end rewards, even if in some cases they do help progression (though truth be told, they can only do so much, and aren't likely to make or break a fight).

[Hanto]

I wasn't too big a fan of raiding in BC, kinda didn't do much during that xpansion (although I raided most of my lvl 60 life in Vanilla)... but, is it actually credible to say that for rogues to use that bow from Sunwell (considering how often they sit there and shoot at you n' stuff) was actually an intended design for that legendary? Same for warriors using the glaives (considering the stats on them).

[Omanley]

They could've made Shadowmourne a mace and opened it to Druids. All three classes that got Shadowmourne could use maces. Did Druids post big rants about how unfair it was? Not really.

THAT actually is a good point. To be honest i never even considered that. I think the main reason for both that and blizz not including feral by making it a mace would be them intending feral to share agi staves/polearms with hunters. Not that that would be a fit justification though! The only other imaginable reason would likely be feral not showing legendaries in bear/cat form, though they could've solved that with thing slike i suggested in prior pages.
Yes, now that you said it ferals could and should've had a shot at shadowmourne. If think about it it would've been the perfect and probably last chance for feral to get a shot at a legendary sharing it with other specs without having it designed in a special way, as feral was redesigned in 4.0. to only want agi.

However even if ferals didn't complain back then (something i think none of us both know of of), what makes it less okay for both feral and enh being left out? Some people care, some dont. I care about enh getting an legendary. You dont.

That's the issue. You've decided to be offended on behalf of Enhancement, so you look for ways to justify being so. See also your post about the class balance issues (which we shouldn't get back into, as it's off-topic).

I see what others get. I see what we get. Others got more. Looking for ways to justify me being uncontent? Hardly. I've done 3on3 in s8 and have been frustrated that i couldn't contribute much to our play besides purge spam, dmg, purge spam, dmg some interrupt here and there and occassionally a hex/bl. Those are facts which you cant deny. And the more you are forced to experience such facts, the more you will complain about them.

That's a good thing. Being entirely focused on one spec in the entire game with regards to balance issues is WHY you're so off-base on so many of these things.

Hardly. In fact i've always made sure to look at the big pictures. I could possibly name you 80% of non shaman abilities out of memory alone. Just because i focus on enhance as a player doesn't mean i no nothing about the other classes.

[/You're dismissive about EVERY other class that has similar issues because you wouldn't ever sully yourself by playing anything other than Enhance

No i'm not. I know about pvp issues concerning ele/enh and moonkin and that i am not the only spec that sucks/has issues. Just as i am complaining about shaman's issues (which just so happen to be the most numerous than most other's), others are complaining about theirs. You say that if things are wrong somewhere else, there's nothing wrong if they are here wrong as well, and that doesn't make sense.
I have 10 different classes on my main server. Every single one is a dps. I've never really touched ele, no. But i've played every class ingame to a certain amount and know a thing or two about them.

"There's been no weapons like that except the two that were exactly like that."
You're arguing against yourself again. Thank you for convincing me that I am, in fact, right and that you were wrong.

No i am not. You just like to pick little parts of my argument, twist them a little and then make weird claims. In the entirety of wow-loot which encompases thousands of epics, two items are slow caster fist/mace/axe weapons and you said something like "why do you complain, what tells us they wont make (of all weapons they could make) such a weapon?" My point was it was more than just unlikely for that to happen.

Yours was "You're contradicting yourself, lol" which isn't any really answer at any point.

Not if they're trying to make a niche weapon. Kind of like what they're doing with the daggers.

They apparantly wanted to make rogues more popular and because of that wanted to include combat as well i'd say. If they had those intentions for shamans specifically at any point, we would've goitten our class specific legendary long ago. Also the daggers are still an agi weapon, it is just weapon speed on the mh that doesn't match with combat. Even the eye is a caster weapon designed for casters though. I've not seen at any point a blue response saying that the eye was specifically designed like that to be used as enh like i've seen people claim it. The only way of making it a equally designed for each spec legendary would have to involve some int/agi highest stat always chosen mechanic and spellpower only applying for resto/ele, which is the kinda thing they've stated they wont do, as it is essentially different items for different specs.

The only time they've done a Rogue-oriented weapon set with a dagger was back in Vanilla, with the Spider's Kiss set. Prior to announcing it, people could have easily said "they'll never do another weapon set for rogues, it's an exotic thing they almost never do so they won't do it for a Legendary". And they'd have been wrong.

Yes they would've been. And it was really unexpected as well because no one would ever have bet on that because it is just that unlikely. So yeah you can go ahead an gamble on that <1% chance of us getting a shaman tailor-made niche weapon for all specs but i am staying realist, look at what shaman received over the last 7 years and complain now rather than waiting 3 years and then going: Hey, where's my legendary, still waiting.

I don't assume either way. You're making assumptions. You're literally trying to say I'm being presumptious by not assuming anything, and I should instead presume that your baseless assumption is correct.

You said i shouldn't complain because one might never know, blizz might make a completely unlikely to create niche weapon. Bringing such an unlikely scenario up as a means to shut my complains up should at least back up the claims of being an assumption.

It's like you are betting on the apple just falling down from the tree never reaching the ground because someone might stand right behind the tree just waiting for it to fall to catch it.

Me expecting us not getting any legendary in the next couple of years when looking at the facts is realism, you suggesting of weird niche weapons speaks of wishful thinking.

[AceofHarts]

@ Majyqman: Thanks for supporting my view. Taking a closer look at your link to hc options for rogues, 11 items are resil gear, so we're down from 36 items to 25 items
Assuming that 4pc bonus in both specs is worth taking, even with changing off-set pieces three tier pieces would remain unchanged, which would eliminate three off-set pieces, putting us at 22 items.
Now if we assume that the rogue generally wears the throwing weapon to be able to aoe, we're down to 20 items after excluding the crossbow and bow.
If we then exclude combat mainhand options as assa or vice versa, we're down to 18 options for 16 slots which essentially means in two slots we're having options (and those choices are between two fast daggers as OH for both specs, a mace or axe as mh for combat or two slow daggers as mh for assa.)

Now that is one hell of a gear swap out. DAAA-YUM

except you know, the part where we need different stats entirely between the two most commonly played specs in teh game.

[Omanley]

OP claims the MC legendaries were "end of Vanilla" in the OP.

Oh, okay, thought it was aimed towards something i said.

[KrazyK923]

Mind you, most people who complain have never achieved a legendary in the past and probably will never obtain one so cry more.

Pretty much this.

[Omanley]

Once and for all - a spec's viability in raiding during a time when a Legendary was available to them does NOT mean they didn't have a legendary.
This is getting frustrating, as you seem to be purposely ignoring it through the entire thread, just so you can justify Enhancement's "entitlement" over rogues.

I dont ignore it, i just dont accept that way of thinking. If a spec realistically speaking would never during his entire way of obtaining said legendary raid as the spec it is aimed at, or even raid with it, why would you consider said raid spec having a legendary? If its just about having it in your inventory, you would be right, but it's just not that way. A legendary is supposed to be weilded and sulfuras was not weilded during raids.

---------- Post added 2011-09-22 at 07:16 PM ----------

Secondly, that still doesn't mean Legendaries are supposed to help the raid progress.

Right, since better loot doesn't help with progress... *laugh*

---------- Post added 2011-09-22 at 07:21 PM ----------

except you know, the part where we need different stats entirely between the two most commonly played specs in teh game.

Only one of each stat benefits from agility, exp, hit, crit, haste, mastery, weapon dps and weapon speed?
If one spec has agility and the other has entirely different stats on it, what has it then? strenght?
You also seem to have missed the heroic item list posted by another poster earlier. Even after switching between assa/combat, rogue gear would stay the same aside from the weapons and maybe an offpiece item because there are not more than one choice for each slot. It's all up to regemming and reforging.

---------- Post added 2011-09-22 at 07:23 PM ----------

Pretty much this.

Actually that made me laugh because your quote was just THAT dumb. I mean what kinda genius would get the idea that someone that complains about his spec getting cheated out of his only chance of obtaining a raid legendary would never had a raid legendary before?

priceless

[Khalahn]

Oh, okay, thought it was aimed towards something i said.

Nah, just didn't see anybody else pointing that out when I was reading through pages.

[AceofHarts]

It was. It would have been enough had Steady shot not been changed to benefit from ammo damage. As it happened though, it ended up not being enough to put it in the Best in Slot position for Hunters. It was however supposedly BiS for Warriors and Rogues >.>

Edit: Upon more research it looks like Steady Shot was changed in this way in the pre-wrath patch. So it was BiS before 3.0, but when 3.0 hit whichever the epic bow was became better.

so the bow was bis from late april (first drop) until around october. and the problem is?

[Endus]

No i am not. You just like to pick little parts of my argument, twist them a little and then make weird claims.

It's a well-known and long-used logical critique system called reductio ad absurdum. Reduction to the absurd. You take the premises of the opponent's argument, reduce them to their relevant points, and draw a ridiculous conclusion. The fact that their premises can lead to such a ridiculous conclusion means there's a logical error in their argument, because if there weren't, you couldn't do so.

The reason I'm making "weird claims" is because your premises don't hold up.

Even the eye is a caster weapon designed for casters though. I've not seen at any point a blue response saying that the eye was specifically designed like that to be used as enh like i've seen people claim it.

We don't need a blue post. It originally was itemized with Expertise, which ONLY makes sense on a Spellpower axe for Enhancement. It's also an odd speed; most caster weapons are fast, this is slower. The only reason for an unusual speed would again be to make it attractive to Enhancement. Both factors make it clear enough without a blue coming straight out and saying "this is good for Enhancement, guys, and we totally didn't do that by accident".

You said i shouldn't complain because one might never know, blizz might make a completely unlikely to create niche weapon. Bringing such an unlikely scenario up as a means to shut my complains up should at least back up the claims of being an assumption.

You said it couldn't happen. I provided an example that follows the precedent of the Eye of Purification to show it could. That's not an assumption. If you say "X can not happen" and I can prove any case where X could happen, then you were wrong. That's how logical argument works.

I dont ignore it, i just dont accept that way of thinking. If a spec realistically speaking would never during his entire way of obtaining said legendary raid as the spec it is aimed at, or even raid with it, why would you consider said raid spec having a legendary? If its just about having it in your inventory, you would be right, but it's just not that way. A legendary is supposed to be weilded and sulfuras was not weilded during raids.

You are not correct. I know people who raided as Enhancement. In Vanilla. It was unusual and admittedly suboptimal, but pretending it never happened is just flat-out dishonest and false.

[AceofHarts]

@ Vat: And it wouldn't have been exciting for enh to have a shot at it? Wouldn't they have worked hard for it to get it? To earn it?
It's reality that blizz catered to healers casters and the tons of people freshly playing deaht knight by making legendaries for them.

The reality is that now that they've catered to rogues only, enh is robbed of its last chance getting one at all. I doubt there'll be another 1h agi weapon among the next 4 or 5 legendaries and assuming the comming x-packs follow the tradition of 2 legendaries per x-pack, it'll be another 3 or 4 years at the least before you can even hope for a legendary and who knows if wow still runs by then.

---------- Post added 2011-09-22 at 04:34 PM ----------


That's bullshit. A legendary does not fix bad class design. Even if it where enough to motivate rogues playing as class that became uninteresting for them, there wouldn't be any hurt including enh in the scheme. Enhance isn't ~that~ common a spec that rogues would've been cheated out of a chance at a legendary either.
Rogues being in bad shape is no reason for them to get a legendary and it is even less justification to exclude enh from having access to it either.

so how would you fix rogues than? they gave us some raid buffs (minimal), and most of our utility is null and void on most boss fights in the game. what would you do to bring the rogue population back up?

[Seranov]

I'm beside myself trying to understand why this thread is fifteen pages long.

99% of WoW's population will never earn a Lengendary when it's cutting edge, so who cares if our spec gets one or not? Wouldn't it be far better if the time spent making a huge quest chain for a couple specs be put into making awesome quest chains that ANYONE can do? Or the time spent itemizing a weapon of awesome quality be spent on making better itemization for everyone? This isn't just about you, and a Legendary is the epitome of that. You can't earn it on your own, you need help from your raid.

tl;dr: Legendaries don't matter. Working together, having fun and killing bosses is what matters.

[Uttrik]

so how would you fix rogues than? they gave us some raid buffs (minimal), and most of our utility is null and void on most boss fights in the game. what would you do to bring the rogue population back up?

How are Rogues broken? Unless you mean the positional aspect of backstab and Assassination Rogues? The Combat Rogue in my guild does just fine.

[Sanguinare]

Tanks cant have a legendary if you had a tank with it they would become your main tank no question . If you lose a tank with it game over on progression to big a risk for blizz to do it. if it is a rare ass drop the luckiest guild gets to be sever first. if it is a Quest chain every main tank would get it and all content would be nurfed to match. Now just look at TF no tanking stats on it but the dps out put made it bis for WARRIOR tank (was only tanking class at the time) was still bis for Rogues but OP tank VS OP dps tanks won most of them.

Now if you look at dps vs heal 10man is 2tanks 2 heals 6dps that means we should see 3 dps legendarys for every one healing one(and that as a see it is a ratio
favering healers the most PS i am a healer and i did get the mace)
The first was dps 2hander mace((most given to enhance shammys/paladins for pvp)).
The second was dps but worked best in the hands of a tank.
The 3rd was caster dps and heals so one for the healer.(only one removed from the game but gear only count for its tier).
The 4th and 5th were a set so i am only couting as the achiviment dose it as one all dps here rogue and war.
The true 5th a bow range dps.
The 6th all Healer
The 7th 2hander all the way back to the first but shammy no longer use 2 handers or str but melee dps
The 8th caster DPS
The 9th rogue DPS.
that makes it 2healer and 8dps looks to me that they are keeping it about right.

shammys can get 3 that is 1/3 of them all

[Radux]

I'm beside myself trying to understand why this thread is fifteen pages long.

I'm pretty much at this state myself.

/Modhat

Ok since this has turned into nothing but QQ-tears-no-Enh-legendary or arguing against stupid semantics or whatever, I'm just going to close it. Frankly this thread went from bad to terrible. I'm done with it. I just get angry every time I open it.

Locked.