The KB+M vs Controller blog post....

[hakujinbakasama]

This isn't to rehash the flame war that started but to list what everyone couldn't find/produce but either kept mentioning or denouncing.


The article was probably this one...
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/xbo...ood,10924.html

The direct link was...
http://www.rahulsood.com/2010/07/con...gainst-pc.html

Now notice first and foremost what Rahul says and who Rahul is. The only "debate" is that Rahul doesn't give up his source. Which frankly, happens all the time in journalism; so take it as you will. I'll also point out that this was posted over a year ago on Rahul's personal blog and was never removed. That actually lends some credence to some and means nothing to others.

Never the less, that's what people refer too.

As an additional note...

I've done a lot of looking over the last couple of days and spoken with both CS and Engineering friends of mine. The general position they both hold is that unless someone from the industry, with regards to a product they've already produced, comes forth and says specific, with regards to their programming, we actually cannot have any "valid" debate on this issue, on the grounds of console controllers.

As a brief summation I'll explain why.

A potentiometer is the device used to in analog controllers such as your PS3, 360, or even PC control device since the 80s. The problem is that most people (ie video game players) don't understand that these do not exactly measure in "degrees" of movement. So while the device has a "360 degree rotation" that isn't the number set that is sent over and read.

In the generic forms of Trigonometry, if we considered a left control stick on a modern console controller with relation to plane movement in a modern fps (Forward, Backward, Strafe Left, Strafe Right), we closely relate this to movement on the (X,Y) axises, which it closely is. However, if we consider the stick to be at rest at the Origin and we apply a 62 degree directional force, we assume the translation in the game is a N62E movement. The problem in short is that this is not guaranteed direct relation to what happens on screen.

There is a great chance that the extra 2 degrees (lost in programming translation) gets rounded down to something resembling 60degree movement for example. This is done because of how potentiometer works and is translated in code. So what we are potentially left with in our modern games is more of a 36 point position of movement on the left stick due to rounding rather than what is perceived as 360 degrees.

Again, it isn't that this is speculation persay as it is one possible method due to the hardware and software being worked with. As said before, unless anyone from the development side of CoD goes on record somewhere explaining how they program their movement values, we will never really know the answer, and even then, it probably differs from game to game depending on the team working on the project.

I'd really like to point out that this doesn't "prove" one is better than the other. This is just merely pointing out some information which usually gets left off. It's worth noting that none of this takes into account any information processed and translated by the right stick which in similar function acts as the equivalent of a Mouse. If anything, it only further points out that it is up to each development team on both sides to program around the hardware and decide just how retentive they want to be in their numerical values.

[Caiada]

THEORETICALLY SPEAKING ONLY

Even 36 degrees of motion is still higher precision than the 8 of WASD, and the transition time is probably not significant enough to make up for that precision.

But, again just theoretically, the mouse is only limited by hand speed, where analog camera movement is restricted by the game itself. This can be slower or faster than hand speed, but usually slower. It's heavily dependent on the game, but in general, I'd imagine that the mouse is more accurate than the analog stick.

So, WASD<Analog, but Mouse>>Analog, on a strictly technical basis. HOWEVER, I'd be very hesitant to make any judgments on this past the strictly technical bottom level or extrapolating this to actual in-game performance, unless an openly exposed and documented test is done, reported, and rigorously tested.

My personal opinion is that it is very game-dependent.

Specifically referring to points you made, I don't trust any blogs, which probably sounds (and may very well be) irrational, but I just can't trust anything hardly open to scrutiny or even expected to post sources. The 'gentle nudge towards the Palm iOS' was.... well, highly suspicious, along with having the balls to say the PC is a completely superior game plaftorm, when this was a test specifically about just FPS games, from what I've heard.

The technical aspects of the analog stick were quite enlightening though; I'd be interested in hearing more about how specifically accurate the analog stick is.

[hakujinbakasama]

Specifically referring to points you made, I don't trust any blogs, which probably sounds (and may very well be) irrational, but I just can't trust anything hardly open to scrutiny or even expected to post sources. The 'gentle nudge towards the Palm iOS' was.... well, highly suspicious, along with having the balls to say the PC is a completely superior game plaftorm, when this was a test specifically about just FPS games, from what I've heard.

The technical aspects of the analog stick were quite enlightening though; I'd be interested in hearing more about how specifically accurate the analog stick is.

Here is the only problem I have with a lot of people with this. It isn't so much a measure of "what is the better platform" because, as you and I seem to agree on, it actually comes down to the software.

As it was mentioned back during the development of Shadowrun, it is extremely complicated to program "fairness" for two completely different input devices. And again, it all comes down to the tech and math each use to take and yield measurements.

The part that I think we all agree on is that the competition to make PC and Console even (which I don't think they will ever do well) is actually hurting us since it closes doors. As the comments in the article support, what about sports games or rpgs or adventure games where this sort of input/reaction/precision isn't needing to be measured as highly?

[Caiada]

Here is the only problem I have with a lot of people with this. It isn't so much a measure of "what is the better platform" because, as you and I seem to agree on, it actually comes down to the software.

As it was mentioned back during the development of Shadowrun, it is extremely complicated to program "fairness" for two completely different input devices. And again, it all comes down to the tech and math each use to take and yield measurements.

The part that I think we all agree on is that the competition to make PC and Console even (which I don't think they will ever do well) is actually hurting us since it closes doors. As the comments in the article support, what about sports games or rpgs or adventure games where this sort of input/reaction/precision isn't needing to be measured as highly?

In the hopefully-not-to-distant future, I can imagine this discussion being completely irrelevant as both platforms get uncomfortably close to each other in capabilities. Probably 2-3 console generations from now. I'd prefer developers worked on this instead of taking the relatively round-about way of getting parity by giving console players more handicaps.

If consoles supported, legitimately, keyboard+mouse controls along with whatever proprietary controller the developer wanted to have, everyone would be better off. Then all you need is mod support, and the only notable difference would be how technically difficult one or the other was, which I think would be, to most people, up to personal opinion.

[Zeta333]

Wasnt the last thread closed cus it turned into a flamefest?

[Caiada]

Wasnt the last thread closed cus it turned into a flamefest?

Ideally, this won't be turned into one.

(As if we can prevent that.)

[mmatrix]

how many ppl preferred to play FPS on their PS3 with mouse/kb
and
how many ppl preferred to play FPS on their PC with controllers?

[hakujinbakasama]

how many ppl preferred to play FPS on their PS3 with mouse/kb
and
how many ppl preferred to play FPS on their PC with controllers?

I've heard complaints that it seems the PS3 doesn't seem to be extremely responsive with the Mouse and Kb depending on the game. Which probably leads back to the main point that they weren't really developed too heavily for that sort of support.

Conversely, I've heard it said that many people do enjoy certain PC games with controllers under single player just out of comfort now and then.

[Caiada]

I've heard complaints that it seems the PS3 doesn't seem to be extremely responsive with the Mouse and Kb depending on the game. Which probably leads back to the main point that they weren't really developed too heavily for that sort of support.

Conversely, I've heard it said that many people do enjoy certain PC games with controllers under single player just out of comfort now and then.

Most 2D games, roms and emulation, some 3rd person action games, possibly racing games, fighting games. That's all mostly personal opinion though. If it makes good use of the mouse, the mouse will *usually* be better for that game.

If developers just made the game with a specific sort of control in mind and that control was available to every platform with maybe a few other alternatives, I imagine games in general would be better.