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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    And you keep refusing to see the connection between: 1) Made mistake 2) consequences of mistake.
    But the consequence that property values went down is not inherently related to private sector waste. Successful or unsuccessful construction can bring that about.

    Dropping property values, because of a situation like this, brings about the discussion of people should have bad looking properties or not. But that's another discussion.

    Because infact, private sector efficiency is what made the property values drop. If he had demolished & cleaned his property or finished the building, he would've wasted much more resources than he used when he just boxed it up. But because he was efficient after realising his mistake, he just boxed it up which was aestethically unpleasing which caused property values to drop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells
    Don't assume the two are mutually exclusive, its just lazy.
    It's harder accepting anyone elses view when you have an emotional connect to the situation.

  2. #122
    Titan smrund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    It's harder accepting anyone elses view when you have an emotional connect to the situation.
    Considering that about summarizes your entire breadth of opinion, I'd say you're not one to talk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    People in cars cause accidents. Accidents in cars cause people.
    Sometimes life gives you lemons, other times life gives you boobies. Life is always better with more boobies.
    The most accurate history of the USSR ever.
    And thus I give you: MALE contraception!

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by wooshiewoo View Post
    The point is, that
    People are making an issue out of a non-issue. That's what the entire point is: this wouldn't even be talked about if it wasn't for politics, plain and simple. It happens everywhere, it happens all the time, and it's a non-issue.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    Considering that about summarizes your entire breadth of opinion, I'd say you're not one to talk.
    You're always the johnny-come-lately that can't manage to do anything else than attack other's person, but never the argument.

  5. #125
    But the consequence that property values went down is not inherently related to private sector waste. Successful or unsuccessful construction can bring that about.
    Are you really saying the property value crash can't be a consequence of the blight in this case because other things can cause property value crashes?

    You're always the johnny-come-lately that can't manage to do anything else than attack other's person, but never the argument.
    i could literally write your arguments for you so its ok.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by eErike View Post
    We have a saying in Sweden: "Det är lätt att se stickan i andras ögon men inte balken i sitt eget". Roughly it says "It's easy to see the splinter in others eyes but not the beam in your own" and I think it fits very good in situations like this :P
    "And why do you look at the splinter in your brother's eye, and not notice the beam which is in your own eye?" -- Matthew 7:3

  7. #127
    Fluffy Kitten conscript's Avatar
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    You know, I can understand $16 muffins. A good muffin is normally like $5 from a place so I could see a really good muffin being $16. Look at Neiman Marcus (spelling) and their super expensive cookies. But how on earth do you make a $5 Swedish meatball? Is it made from kobe beef? Is the gravy laced with gold?

  8. #128
    Fluffy Kitten Dacien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Our government actually performs better in many ways than it did in the past.
    Do you think the public sector pension system in, say, New Jersey, is sustainable? How about Rhode Island? Government performs, in many ways, much worse than they have in the past.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    Do you think the public sector pension system in, say, New Jersey, is sustainable? How about Rhode Island? Government performs, in many ways, much worse than they have in the past.
    Man compared to some of the shit that happened in our past pension programs are small fries. We used to use military force against striking workers.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Are you really saying the property value crash can't be a consequence of the blight in this case because other things can cause property value crashes?
    No. I'm saying you can't pin the problem of fluctuating property values on malinvestments by the private sector. Any investments, good or bad, can have such effects. A bad investment can cause property values to go up or down, a good investment can cause property values to go up or down. In your anecdote it wasn't the success of the investment that was crucial, but how the investor handled the aftermath.

    What if his investment had been successful, but it would still have caused lower property values because of the customers the mall attracts? Stuff like this happens, but it's not related to the fact that private, for-profit, investors also make mistakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells
    i could literally write your arguments for you so its ok.
    Yeah more insults - always best to resort to them when you can't respond.
    Last edited by Diurdi; 2011-09-22 at 10:25 PM.

  11. #131
    Yeah more insults - always best to resort to them when you can't respond.
    Well since I have been responding your post would dictate that it was in fact not an insult I suppose.

    I'm saying you can't pin the problem of fluctuating property values on malinvestments by the private sector.
    Wait wait wait. So when he bulldozes a block and leaves a dirt field full of weeds with a boarded up half built store in the middle and property values tank immediately after I can't link the two?

    Even when property values in the rest of city were stable?

    What if his investment had been successful, but it would still have caused lower property values because of the customers the mall attracts?
    But it didn't so its irrelevant.

    So I guess my point stands. Waste in the private sector can effect people outside the immediate circle of involvement. So why do we single out government waste as so much more horrible?

  12. #132
    Herald of the Titans zcks's Avatar
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    Times like these make me glad I qualify as a native American Indian, we don't have to pay taxes & the rez is not subject to American laws since we write our own & have our own government.

    The US government is just full of idiots, selfish b@stards, & corrupt officials on both sides & none of them really care about the people who vote for them. I mean why should they when they all get campaign contributions from companies & wall street & repay them with fat government contracts while those companies continue to lay of Americans & care more about the cheap labor forces that they sent jobs overseas to or brought in themselves (or told to come up here) from down south.
    The way balancing for WOW PVP works is allot like American politics.
    1: Be lazy & ignore problems till the yelling is so loud your cant concentrate.
    2: Refuse to do the things you have Said need to be done, then make up reasons why they cannot be done.
    3: Lay the blame for problems on someone else even when it's your fault because you did all of the above.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Wait wait wait. So when he bulldozes a block and leaves a dirt field full of weeds with a boarded up half built store in the middle and property values tank immediately after I can't link the two?
    Yes, you can absolutely link those two. That's what I've been trying to communicate all the time. The problem is the aestathic appearance of his property, not how successful or unsuccessful he was. If he'd built a successful strip-bar there it could've lowered the value of the property as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells
    So I guess my point stands. Waste in the private sector can effect people outside the immediate circle of involvement. So why do we single out government waste as so much more horrible?
    Because governments waste alot more, and when they do waste, they don't get outcompeted. Yes, your evil contractor did not go out of business, but it put him that much closer to doing so. They're not even remotely the same. When a private investor fails, he bears most of the burden. When the government fails, everyone bears the burden.

    You can't argue based on one anecdote that government waste is the same as private waste. The government wastes your money. The private investor wastes his. The property owner's money was not wasted in your anecdote.

    You're still arguing the completely wrong point. Yes the market connects everyone. Yes every action, successful or not, can cause property values to go up or down. Just because it went down in your anecdote does not mean anything really.

  14. #134
    Yes, you can absolutely link those two. That's what I've been trying to communicate all the time. The problem is the aestathic appearance of his property, not how successful or unsuccessful he was. If he'd built a successful strip-bar there it could've lowered the value of the property as well.
    So what? That isn't even close to relevant.

    Because governments waste alot more, and when they do waste, they don't get outcompeted. Yes, your evil contractor did not go out of business, but it put him that much closer to doing so. They're not even remotely the same. When a private investor fails, he bears most of the burden. When the government fails, everyone bears the burden.
    And for good reason. When a business fails we aren't nearly as fucked as when a business fails.

    You can't argue based on one anecdote that government waste is the same as private waste.
    I can indeed, unless you refuse to accept that private waste can effect people outside its origins. If you want to argue scale then go ahead, but functionally they're the same.

  15. #135
    Fluffy Kitten Dacien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    And for good reason. When a business fails we aren't nearly as fucked as when a government fails.
    So the importance of the stability of a government justifies wasteful spending? (Took some liberties with your post, hope I got it right)

    I think we can have a stable and efficient government with much less waste by lessening it's responsibility.
    Last edited by Dacien; 2011-09-23 at 12:07 AM.

  16. #136
    $16 muffins is misleading tbh. Catering is not cheap. As someone who's worked in catering, it HAS to be expensive or the people serving your food would get literally shit for pay (its already kind of low). Either way, its going back into the economy, and into the sector I work no less, so good deal there. Keep buying expensive shit and stimulating the economy gov't I'm all for it.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    I can indeed, unless you refuse to accept that private waste can effect people outside its origins. If you want to argue scale then go ahead, but functionally they're the same.
    Private waste, private success, government waste, government success, all affects people outside its origins. But the investment is lost by the investors, not the surroundings. When government fails, the investment comes from the populations' pockets.

    Look, if government had made the investment, the "innocent" population would've lost the invested money. Furthermore the property values would've gone down thanks to people not liking the visual looks of the outcome.

    But because a private entepreneur with his own money made the bad investment, the innocent population did not lose the money. The property value still went down.

    The other important thing is that the value of properties did not go down specifically because his investment failed, but because his property was ugly. People are allowed to build ugly properties (unless they have signed contract not to do so).
    Last edited by Diurdi; 2011-09-23 at 09:30 AM.

  18. #138
    What about the bail out of the big car companies we had a while back? Those private companies are not going to pay us back in full....

    I am pretty sure we can find wasteful spending on their end.

  19. #139
    So the importance of the stability of a government justifies wasteful spending?
    Somewhat. We should always try to reduce it but we need to also accept that it will happen.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Hedleyazg View Post
    Don't forget all the PS3s Odumba gives away to foreign diplomats.
    100 PS3s is at most $50,000. I kinda doubt it was even that many.




    About the muffins, they obviously didn't really cost $16 each, they cost $0.50 each and the rest of the money is going to alien coverups!
    *dons tinfoil hat*

    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    You're always the johnny-come-lately that can't manage to do anything else than attack other's person, but never the argument.
    This post amused me. You're doing exactly what you accused him of doing.
    Last edited by Bergtau; 2011-09-23 at 04:30 PM.

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

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