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  1. #1

    Retribution Rotation...CS +1 or CS +2 filler?

    This is probably a pretty obvious question for most of you ret pali's out there...but What would be the optimal way to dps as retribution? I've been using other sites like EJ for some insight, but they only describe the priority, not the rotation.

    For most of my offspec career, i've been doing the CS followed by 2 filler attacks (except on occasion of bloodlust or using any cooldowns that make my rotation viable for CS + 1 filler). Sometimes I feel like i'm cutting it quite close with the cooldown and it would almost be better to just wait for CS...but i'm not entirely sure.

    Since this is my first post (despite using mmo-champ since dawn of the ages) I cant give you guys an armory if you desire to search me up, but my character name is Victosaurus - Blackrock.

    If you guys got any advice for me beyond just the rotation, feel free to criticize.

    Thanks denizens of mmo-champ!

    Victosaurus

  2. #2
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireforce7 View Post
    This is probably a pretty obvious question for most of you ret pali's out there...but What would be the optimal way to dps as retribution? I've been using other sites like EJ for some insight, but they only describe the priority, not the rotation.

    For most of my offspec career, i've been doing the CS followed by 2 filler attacks (except on occasion of bloodlust or using any cooldowns that make my rotation viable for CS + 1 filler). Sometimes I feel like i'm cutting it quite close with the cooldown and it would almost be better to just wait for CS...but i'm not entirely sure.

    Since this is my first post (despite using mmo-champ since dawn of the ages) I cant give you guys an armory if you desire to search me up, but my character name is Victosaurus - Blackrock.

    If you guys got any advice for me beyond just the rotation, feel free to criticize.

    Thanks denizens of mmo-champ!

    Victosaurus
    It depends completely, fillers shouldn't be prioritized over CS/TV unless it's a DP proc that is expiring.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  3. #3
    Do you somehow have enough haste to be on a 3-second crusader strike CD?

    Nope.

    OK, then sometimes you'll just have one filler, other times you'll have two.

    Welcome to a priority rotation.

    It blows.

  4. #4
    First thing, I checked out your armory, stop going for socket bonuses unless they are +20 strength. Gemming on your pants, gloves, boots, belt and shoulders can all be changed to 40 strength gems, they yield the most output. For a yellow socket with +20 strength bonus, use STR+Mastery, if it's a blue socket with +20 strength bonus, use STR+Hit. Also, the enchant on your boots is wrong, you should be using the +50 Mastery enchant, as Pursuit of Justice doesn't stack with the movement speed enchant you have on your boots, so it's totally wasted. And it's also totally worth it to buy the Valor bracers, and put +50 strength on them, don't be cheap. :P

    Other than that, you are pretty well geared. The Firebound Gorget isn't that great, you are losing out on A LOT of Strength for the sake of big mastery. Even the Fireheart Necklace from the first step of Molten Front dailies is probably better, STR > All. (I'm not 100% sure about the actual output, but I think giving up Strength, our main thoroughput stat for mastery is a little silly, as more strength or mastery = bigger HoL numbers EITHER WAY.)

    As for the rotation, The opening sequence to a fight should almost never vary, unless it's highly unusual. The best way I've seen is macro'ing GoAK into Judgement on a separate keybind from the judgement you use in your rotation, and opening with that as you are running into the boss. The opening rotation goes something like Judge > CS > filler > filler > CS > filler > filler > CS > WINGS+ZEAL > Inq if you didn't get a DP proc > CS > Hammer/Exo (Exo gets priority over Hammer) > TV > etc... Then you move to the CS > filler > filler > CS > filler > filler > CS > TV when your cooldowns are up. Now, some of the specifics can change varying on DP procs. The general rule of thumb is getting Inquisition up as soon as you can, and refresh as early as possible after the duration falls under 6 seconds. The most reliable way in my experience with the rotation is accounting for that every three rotations of HP built with CS, you are going to be refreshing Inq. This way, you can keep track of HP and know when the refresh is coming up. Something like power auras helps immensely with this. Unless if I fucked up somewhere, I spend all of my DP on TV, because I know that I can count on my HP generation to be right on time with the refresh of Inq. The only time that this will mess you up is when a string of DP procs makes you play whack a mole before you can spend you can spend a 3 HP charge. If this happens, just spend however many HP you have to refresh Inq when it falls under 6 seconds until you can build up 3 HP again to refresh to full duration.

    There is not enough haste on gear to worry about reaching the 3 second soft cap, so really, you should always be using 2 fillers, EXCEPT during Bloodlust, when you would be clipping CS's cooldown too much.
    Last edited by Handsylton; 2011-09-22 at 07:59 PM.

  5. #5
    Deleted
    It's CS then 2 fillers, make sure you use the fillers in the right order though because that's why EJ is telling you the priority so when your CS is on cooldown you know what fillers to use in what order. Just for a reminder I'll write it out for you on here:

    Inqusition (must ALWAYS be up) > CS > TV (with 3 holy power) > TV (DP proc) > HoW > Exorcism (with AoW proc) > judgement > HW

    So lets say that your CS was ready for use but your DP proced, you would use your CS first to gain the holy power, then use the DP proc on TV (or Inq) for a filler. Well i hope that helped, or maybe it just confused you more :P. Gl

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Handsylton View Post
    First thing, I checked out your armory, stop going for socket bonuses unless they are +20 strength. Gemming on your pants, gloves, boots, belt and shoulders can all be changed to 40 strength gems, they yield the most output. For a yellow socket with +20 strength bonus, use STR+Mastery, if it's a blue socket with +20 strength bonus, use STR+Hit. Also, the enchant on your boots is wrong, you should be using the +50 Mastery enchant, as Pursuit of Justice doesn't stack with the movement speed enchant you have on your boots, so it's totally wasted. And it's also totally worth it to buy the Valor bracers, and put +50 strength on them, don't be cheap. :P

    Other than that, you are pretty well geared. The Firebound Gorget isn't that great, you are losing out on A LOT of Strength for the sake of big mastery. Even the Fireheart Necklace from the first step of Molten Front dailies is probably better, STR > All. (I'm not 100% sure about the actual output, but I think giving up Strength, our main thoroughput stat for mastery is a little silly, as more strength or mastery = bigger HoL numbers EITHER WAY.)

    As for the rotation, The opening sequence to a fight should almost never vary, unless it's highly unusual. The best way I've seen is macro'ing GoAK into Judgement on a separate keybind from the judgement you use in your rotation, and opening with that as you are running into the boss. The opening rotation goes something like Judge > CS > filler > filler > CS > filler > filler > CS > WINGS+ZEAL > Inq if you didn't get a DP proc > CS > Hammer/Exo (Exo gets priority over Hammer) > TV > etc... Then you move to the CS > filler > filler > CS > filler > filler > CS > TV when your cooldowns are up. Now, some of the specifics can change varying on DP procs. The general rule of thumb is getting Inquisition up as soon as you can, and refresh as early as possible after the duration falls under 6 seconds. The most reliable way in my experience with the rotation is accounting for that every three rotations of HP built with CS, you are going to be refreshing Inq. This way, you can keep track of HP and know when the refresh is coming up. Something like power auras helps immensely with this. Unless if I fucked up somewhere, I spend all of my DP on TV, because I know that I can count on my HP generation to be right on time with the refresh of Inq. The only time that this will mess you up is when a string of DP procs makes you play whack a mole before you can spend you can spend a 3 HP charge. If this happens, just spend however many HP you have to refresh Inq when it falls under 6 seconds until you can build up 3 HP again to refresh to full duration.

    There is not enough haste on gear to worry about reaching the 3 second soft cap, so really, you should always be using 2 fillers, EXCEPT during Bloodlust, when you would be clipping CS's cooldown too much.
    Thank you Handsylton. This is the kind of help I needed. All your reasons are insightful and correct. Glad to hear specifics for my rotation! I was doing it right all along. I just needed someone to clarify with! And good catch on the gear/enchant. I already fixed the boot enchant right before you mentioned it. Armory just hasn't updated it. As for the BoE neck peice, I just use it because I had nothing else at the time and it was only 4k on the AH when FL came out so i figured it would be a cheap dual purpose item since I use it as my tank item as well (no good neck peice drop still...).

    I knew I could count on mmo forums, thanks guys!

  7. #7
    I'll be short instead of wall of text. Its completely situation, and depends how many sec or 0.sec you have before next CS. It takes some times, but its all about being active in responding to your procs and spells, in order to provide best possible result. Sometimes its 1, sometimes its 2, there is no clear winner.

  8. #8
    Thanks guys!

    Handsylton pretty much answered everything I needed. Glad to know I was on the right track.

    Time to fix some stuff!

    Victosaurus

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Handsylton View Post
    First thing, I checked out your armory, stop going for socket bonuses unless they are +20 strength. Gemming on your pants, gloves, boots, belt and shoulders can all be changed to 40 strength gems, they yield the most output. For a yellow socket with +20 strength bonus, use STR+Mastery, if it's a blue socket with +20 strength bonus, use STR+Hit.
    Not true anymore with 378+. If you can get one orange or one purple gem to get a strength bonus, it's worth it.

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireforce7 View Post
    Thanks guys!

    Handsylton pretty much answered everything I needed. Glad to know I was on the right track.

    Time to fix some stuff!

    Victosaurus
    He answered your information but half of it's wrong.

    There are plenty time when you won't be using 2 fillers it really is 100% situation based, there is no one and done for Ret.

    For the gemming there are certain ways to address it, You are currently reforging -199 Hit Rating yet you are gemming for 100 Hit Rating. So that being said you should always consider what you have and what you are dropping. In this case there is clearly no point in socketing str/hit gems.

    1. Are you on or over the hit cap? You are over it by 30 so more reasons not to be socketing for hit.

    2. Are you reforging off more hit than you are adding? Why socket hit if you are reforging it to a lesser stat than strength?

    Never socket for Crit or Haste bonus so in your case currently No reason to socket Hit/Str because you are just reforging it trading strength for a secondary stat. But that will change as your gear changes.

    Unless if I fucked up somewhere, I spend all of my DP on TV, because I know that I can count on my HP generation to be right on time with the refresh of Inq. Don't follow that advice it works for him he may or may not have lower inq uptime I don't know but to assume that hopo generation will always sync up with inquisition don't do that never assume.

    For the rotation Handsylton is using his own method that isn't the recommended method it works for him and it may work for you as well. I would suggest using the suggested priority system and then making changes to it as you see fit.

    Here is what you should base your rotation/priority off of.

    inq application -> inq refresh using hp-> cs -> inq refresh using dp -> tv using dp -> tv using hp -> exo -> how -> j -> hw

    Now how vs exo changes by gear changes on fights changes all over the place they can go either way.

    PS - Handsylton your personal opinion you felt so needy to express in the other thread I don't care what you think your opinion holds 0 value to me so keep your personal insults to yourself.
    Last edited by Requital; 2011-09-22 at 10:30 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    He answered your information but half of it's wrong.

    There are plenty time when you won't be using 2 fillers it really is 100% situation based, there is no one and done for Ret.

    For the sake of clarification, I'm speaking of the rotation as CS > attack > attack > CS. TV is counted as a filler to make the understanding of what I'm talking about easier. Unless under Bloodlust/Heroism, you should be using two attacks between each CS. Waiting 1 second or longer for CS to come off cooldown is a waste of a GCD and a dps loss.

    For the gemming there are certain ways to address it, You are currently reforging -199 Hit Rating yet you are gemming for 100 Hit Rating. So that being said you should always consider what you have and what you are dropping. In this case there is clearly no point in socketing str/hit gems.

    1. Are you on or over the hit cap? You are over it by 30 so more reasons not to be socketing for hit.

    2. Are you reforging off more hit than you are adding? Why socket hit if you are reforging it to a lesser stat than strength?

    Never socket for Crit or Haste bonus so in your case currently No reason to socket Hit/Str because you are just reforging it trading strength for a secondary stat. But that will change as your gear changes.


    I agree completely. With reforging available, there is no need to ever gem for hit. Getting hit capped through gemming gives a lesser output of Str, which is easily our most desired stat, and far greater than any secondary stat. The only time you should use a Str+Mastery or Str+Hit gem is when the socket bonus is +20 Strength or greater. Gemming otherwise yields less Strength, and therefore is a dps loss.

    Unless if I fucked up somewhere, I spend all of my DP on TV, because I know that I can count on my HP generation to be right on time with the refresh of Inq. Don't follow that advice it works for him he may or may not have lower inq uptime I don't know but to assume that hopo generation will always sync up with inquisition don't do that never assume.

    For the rotation Handsylton is using his own method that isn't the recommended method it works for him and it may work for you as well. I would suggest using the suggested priority system and then making changes to it as you see fit.

    Here is what you should base your rotation/priority off of.

    inq application -> inq refresh using hp-> cs -> inq refresh using dp -> tv using dp -> tv using hp -> exo -> how -> j -> hw

    Now how vs exo changes by gear changes on fights changes all over the place they can go either way.


    I agree that our rotation has a lot to do with what feels comfortable, and my rotation may not work for a lot of people, but works for me. With a vast lack of gear, I am able to do 36k burst, and about 24k sustained dps over a 5 minute fight. Other people may not be able to do this with my priority and rotation. The amount of information you can take in at once is a big factor in how comfortable you can be with ret, as there is a lot of management required to perform well. I say that AS A RULE OF THUMB, you can be pretty confident about Inq needing refreshing on the 3rd rotation of HP, but this is not definite. DP procs pushing back using 3 HP and uptime on the boss plays a much bigger role than anything in when you will be refreshing Inq. Therefore, this rule of thumb may not work for you. It's all about feeling it out, as your latency and uptime play a far bigger factor than anything else.

    PS - Handsylton your personal opinion you felt so needy to express in the other thread I don't care what you think your opinion holds 0 value to me so keep your personal insults to yourself.

    It was not meant to be an insult Requital. I regularly see a lot of negativity in your posts, and as a fellow member of these forums, I just wanted you to know how you come across in your posts. That is all.
    10 characters.

  12. #12
    The Patient Karmian's Avatar
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    I use some haste though it is not recommende so I use CS + 1 filler most of the times.
    Duting a long battle, when Ineed 2 fillers I sue a dps booster such as Avenging Wrath or Guardian of the Ancient Kings or Zealotry if I have 3 Holy Power.
    The only times I put other spells above CS: When my inquisition drops or is about to drop and I have 3 HP and when I am very low on mana and Iuse judgement + Divine Plea.

  13. #13
    Scarab Lord zealous's Avatar
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    There is no end all be all of a fixed rotation for a long time now. You can't count on a 1 or 2 filler rotation to be any kind of standard, you just have to keep the priority in your head.

    What Req posted is pretty much the correct one:

    inq application -> inq refresh using hp-> cs -> inq refresh using dp -> tv using dp -> tv using hp -> exo -> how -> j -> hw
    - Looks like they took him to some bolt hole in the Wounded Coast.
    - I wonder if it's near the Injured Cliffs? Or the Limping Hills? Massive-Head-Trauma-Bay? No? Just me? *sigh* Forget I said anything.

  14. #14
    Thanks everyone.

    I shall keep everything in perspective. I dont always go CS +2 fillers, I just go with whatever suits the timing (ret fcfs is very helpful with that stuff). I never expected the ret rotation to be a "one and done" kind of thing. A lot of this information is a good reminder for me (since i havent done ret since ICC days) so collectively, I've taken everyones advice into consideration.

    However, just keep in mind, this is just my offspec (i'll be using it for Heroic fights that dont require 2 tanks) so please, dont flame eachother's opinions XD...we're all gentlemen/?gentle-women? here!

    Completely forgot I should be reforging a secondary stat for hit, not GEMMING hit (unless equal strength bonus)...I've been losing strength all this time!

    Again, this has been very insightful for me as a player and I appreciate all your inputs. Thanks again,

    Victosaurus

  15. #15
    Inqusition (must ALWAYS be up) > CS > TV (with 3 holy power) >
    You might want to look *REALLY* hard at that rotation. I mean REALLY hard. And tell me whats wrong. Hint, look at the position of CS and TV on that. Because god knows I won't mash CS if I have 3 holy power already.

    I agree completely. With reforging available, there is no need to ever gem for hit.
    Plenty of reasons. Such as a +20 strength bonus. What else am I going to gem for if I need a blue? Stam? Besides, 20 Hit on a gem is 20 more rating. Unless *ALL* your hit is reforged off and you are above the cap, more hit rating is a bonus. Reforging can get you nearly spot on for hit most the time. It's pretty silly to say you needn't ever gem for hit, because you're closing off valid options for better gearing. For a 20 Str bonus, a 20 Str/Hit gem is a solid gain unless you can't reforge away 20 hit somewhere else. At *WORST*, it draws even, and can be a valid option incase future upgrades mean you lose hit rating on other gear. I don't think there is really anything else to gem for with a blue socket for the bonus. Also, depending on your specific gear set up, a 20Str/Hit gem could be worthwhile for a 10Str bonus. That extra 20 rating could be another 20 Mastery (in which case, 20 Mastery is better than 20 Str). Assuming you free up ~20 of ANY DPS stat, it's (in higher gear levels) at worst, a very minor loss, but occasionally a minor gain. This is very situational on your own gearing.

    The only time you should use a Str+Mastery or Str+Hit gem is when the socket bonus is +20 Strength or greater.
    The Oops. Shoulda read a couple lines further before responding. Too late. Anyways, the higher your ilvl, the more your secondary stats are worth compared to strength. We're at the point where good reforging options (or an outright +20 mastery) is worth using a hybrid gem over a pure for a +10 Str bonus. I can NOT stress this enough though, it depends on how your personal gear situation.

  16. #16
    Did the weight of strength go down or something? Because last time I checked, which was about a month ago, Strength was still weighted at 235, while Mastery was weighted at 99. So technically, if you gem 20 str/20 mastery for a +10 str socket bonus, you are effectively losing dps... I may have outdated information, but the increase of strength and secondary stats is somewhat linear, so the relationship between the stats and their weights should remain the same..

    Unless if the increased hit/exp naturally on gear has allowed mastery to balloon at higher ilvls or something? What you are saying makes no sense to me, because 10 str > 20 of ANY rating. Now a 30 mastery socket bonus, yes it is worth it, because 10 str < 30 mastery, but I'm pretty sure that is the only scenario where it is worth gimping your strength for more secondary stats. I'm still running around in like 367 ilvl so I haven't really checked the math on that, but I am definitely feeling skeptical about the math on that one.

  17. #17
    Did the weight of strength go down or something? Because last time I checked, which was about a month ago, Strength was still weighted at 235, while Mastery was weighted at 99.
    No. Str didn't go down. Mastery/haste/crit go *UP*. The More STR you have, the more they're worth.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by zealous View Post
    There is no end all be all of a fixed rotation for a long time now. You can't count on a 1 or 2 filler rotation to be any kind of standard, you just have to keep the priority in your head.

    What Req posted is pretty much the correct one:
    There is also an additional rule, but this only applies to fighting demons/undead. Where the guarenteed crit from Exorcism pushes it higher in the priority list. But this is irrelevant to virtually current content except Baradin Hold.

  19. #19
    Scarab Lord zealous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrahero View Post
    There is also an additional rule, but this only applies to fighting demons/undead. Where the guarenteed crit from Exorcism pushes it higher in the priority list. But this is irrelevant to virtually current content except Baradin Hold.
    I certainly do miss ICC and Naxx in that regard. =)
    - Looks like they took him to some bolt hole in the Wounded Coast.
    - I wonder if it's near the Injured Cliffs? Or the Limping Hills? Massive-Head-Trauma-Bay? No? Just me? *sigh* Forget I said anything.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    inq application -> inq refresh using hp-> cs -> inq refresh using dp -> tv using dp -> tv using hp -> exo -> how -> j -> hw

    Now how vs exo changes by gear changes on fights changes all over the place they can go either way.
    Large ammounts of AP favor Exo.

    Exo takes over HoW when the target is UD or Demon, it's own dot isn't up or when it procs during execute phase as HoW isn't limited to a cooldown timer.

    HoW takes over when building AoK in regular circumstances.

    Inside of the rotation it's a judgement call. IE - less than 3 HP, with a DP Proc up and an Exo Proc up but CS cooling down.

    Exo would follows up to a CS, to a DP TV, to a HP TV to possibly get more Exos.
    Even tho DP TV is a bit higher, Exo's DPET is a lot higher and any procs you can force by getting rid of it before the next swing will net you noticeable larger ammounts of DPS compared to what you stand to lose, etc etc.

    Then again this isn't the baby steps the OP needs to take so... Post count 1+ !
    >.>
    Last edited by Veliane; 2011-09-23 at 03:32 PM.

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