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  1. #1

    Synek's guide to the PvE Subtlety Rogue

    Read: I've quit playing, so this won't be updated past 4.3.

    Contents
    1. Introduction
    2. Spec
    - Glyphs
    3. Gear
    - Weapons/Poisons
    - Hit cap
    - Expertise cap
    - Gems
    - Enchants
    4. Rotation
    - Opener
    - Priority
    - Cooldowns
    - HaT and you
    - Macros
    5. Updates

    1. Introduction

    So with Sub looking to be the must-be spec with Legendaries, I decided it's time to do another guide. This is intended for experienced Rogues looking to play Subtlety. If you find a flaw or have anything to add I'll edit it in if it's not silly. This isn't the be-all and end-all either, I'm very much aware that some stuff will be wrong blah blah you know the deal.

    2. Spec

    There's quite literally no filler points in the standard Subtlety DPS spec. However, if you want to put some points into Enveloping Shadows or something else (personally I drop one in), Initiative is the least DPS, followed by Elusiveness.

    http://www.wowhead.com/talent#fMhcZ0bZcGcsdu0RGo:zkmrob

    2.1 Glyphs

    Listed in order of DPS; highest->lowest

    Glyph of Backstab
    Glyph of Hemorrhage
    Glyph of Slice and Dice

    Shadow Dance/Eviscerate was your third glyph (in the place of Hemo) up until recently. Hemo comes out ~100-200 DPS ahead of Slice and Dice and 400+ DPS ahead of ShD/Evis at the moment. It's viable to run without Hemo glyph, as it makes the (already tough) rotation easier. It's a relatively small loss in DPS to run without it.
    3. Gearing

    Agi>>Yellow Hit>Haste>Expertise>=Crit (Without Legendary Daggers)

    It's a toss-up between Crit and Expertise. As a rule of thumb, I think that if you're using T12 2pc, go for Crit, otherwise gear for Expertise. Expertise also improves cycle stability, so feel free to go for Expertise regardless, if you value cycle stability. The difference between the two stats is small anyway, and it could go either way depending on your gear.

    Reforge to Haste after you get Yellow Hit cap, then go for Crit/Expertise. Reforge out of Mastery then Spell Hit.

    3.1 Weapons/Poisons

    Main hand - 1.8 Speed - Instant Poison
    Off Hand - 1.4 Speed - Deadly Poison
    Thrown - Wound Poison

    In a straight single target fight, Instant is ~1% ahead of Wound in the main hand (relatively old figures but still mostly relevant). It's safe to assume that if you're going to be target switching much, Wound will be your best bet on Main Hand, though I'm not sure at what point Wound becomes better.

    3.2 Hit cap

    2/3 Precision - 481 (Yellow hit)

    3.3 Expertise cap
    - 781 (Gnomes - 691)


    3.4 Gems

    Agi
    Agi/Hit (Purple)
    Agi/Haste (Orange)

    You should only ever go for a +20 Agi bonus, or so. I advise doing the EP math if it bothers you that much, but Agi is likely to be the best gem for most slots.

    3.5 Enchants

    Head: 60 Agi/35 Haste (Ramkahen)
    Shoulder: 50 Agi/25 Mastery (Therazane)
    Cloak: 65 Crit (Slightly ahead of 22 Agi)
    Chest: 20 all stats
    Bracer: 50 Agi
    Gloves: 20 Agi
    Legs: 190AP/55 Crit
    Feet: 35 Agi (25 Agi/Run Speed (Assassin's Step) for movement fights where ShS doesn't suffice)
    Main Hand: Landslide
    Off Hand: Landslide

    4. Rotation

    Firstly,

    Serrated Blades causes your 5CP Eviscerates to refresh your Rupture, it's assumed that you use Rupture once at the start and roll it throughout the fight. When you Rupture, it's 'power' is kept when it's refreshed, so if you have an AP/Crit buff when you Rupture, your Rupture will keep that damage as long as you keep it rolling with Serrated Blades.

    4.1 Opener

    1. 5 Combo Points from healer crits -> Slice and Dice
    2. Pre-pot
    3. Stealth
    4. Premeditation->Shadow Step->Ambush
    5. Hemo->Rupture
    6. Build to 3-4 CPs - Let Hat fill the rest->Recuperate
    7. Shadow Dance when Find Weakness is about to drop
    8. Vanish when Find Weakness is about to drop
    9. Prep right after you vanish
    4.2 Priority

    Buffed Rupture>Slice and Dice>Unbuffed Rupture>Recuperate

    5pt Recuperates are ideal, and should be used always, unless going from 3pt to 5pt will cause Recuperate to be down for more than ~3 seconds. For example, if SnD (or Rupture) is at ~6 seconds left and Recuperate is about to drop, get Recuperate up with ~3 pts, then refresh SnD and continue.

    4.3 Cooldown use

    Subtlety's damage output is very much reliant on cooldown use. Not so much for their raw damage, but for Find Weakness. Maximizing Find Weakness uptime will quite literally make or break your DPS. Thus, you should always focus on maximizing FW uptime, and not efficient use of ShS/Premeditation.

    Shadowstep should be used on the second (or later) Ambush in a Shadow Dance. It's also a very valuable mobility cooldown. Don't be forced to save it for DPS - While it is a DPS increase, maximizing time on the boss is FAR more important.

    Shadow Dance should be used when you are near full energy. Ideally you will refresh both Slice and Dice and Recuperate during Shadow Dance to maximize energy during the 6s window, and Eviscerate later while Find Weakness is still up.

    Preparation should be used right after you Vanish/Ambush.

    HaT and you

    Honor among Thieves is a staple talent in the Subtlety tree, giving you a Combo Point every time someone in your raid crits, with an internal cooldown (ICD) of 2 seconds. It is a very dynamic mechanic, and mastering it is one of the more difficult things in the Subtlety playstyle. In a raid setting (which is assumed) it gives you 1 Combo Point every ~2.2 seconds. Because of this, you always want to be at or above 35 energy when you hit 5 Combo Points, so you don't waste any Combo Points. There's a couple of laws that you can apply to this idea:
    1. When at 3 Combo Points and below 40 energy, pool energy and let HaT fill your last two Combo Points.
    2. When at 3 Combo Points and above 50 energy, Backstab for your 4th point and let HaT fill your last Combo Point.
    3. If HaT has just procced your 4th point and you're above 50 energy, Backstab your 5th.
    It's hard to give a set of rules to follow when working with HaT, but as a rule of thumb, you should always try to be a position such that once you hit 5 Combo Points you can use your finisher before HaT is due to proc again. It may be worth considering Find Weakness when deciding whether or not to Backstab; if you're sitting at 3CP and 40 energy with Find Weakness about to drop, it's probably worth it to Backstab your 4th and HaT the 5th and try to Eviscerate before Find Weakness falls.

    4.4 Macros

    To Always Use Premed When Available

    Not a huge fan of Premed macros, personally. It can often lead to wasting your Premed, unless you have Ambush bound somewhere else (and that undermines the point of the macro in the first place).

    #showtooltip Garrote
    /cast Premeditation
    /cast Garrote

    ---

    #showtooltip Cheap Shot
    /cast Premeditation
    /cast Cheap Shot

    ---

    #showtooltip Ambush
    /cast Shadow Step
    /cast Ambush


    Various Tricks Macros

    ---

    #showtooltip Tricks of the Trade
    /cast [target=focus] Tricks of the Trade

    ---

    #showtooltip Tricks of the Trade
    /cast [target=PlayerName] Tricks of the Trade

    ---

    #showtooltip Tricks of the Trade
    /cast [target=targettarget] Tricks of the Trade

    ---

    #showtooltip Trick of the trade
    /cast [help][target=mouseover, exists, help][target=focus, help][target=targettarget, help] Trick of the trade



    ([@targettarget]/[@focus]/[@playername] also works, to my knowledge(?))

    Shadow Dance anti-bar lag

    #showtooltip Shadow dance
    /cast shadow dance
    /cast ambush
    /startattack



    This will cast Ambush as soon as you pop Shadow Dance, allowing you to pool higher at a lower risk of capping, and essentially removes the issue of bar lag (ie. popping Shadow Dance and having to wait a second for your bar to change to the Shadow Dance bar).

    To burn Sprint if you are using Preparation

    #showtooltip Preparation
    /cast Sprint
    /cast Preparation

    It's advised that you add /startattack to all your offensive abilities that you use when moving to a new target to make sure you are auto attacking. Also, adding /cast pickpocket to your stealth openers is handy for picking up lockboxes/random junk.



    5. Updates
    24/09/11 - Typos, edited talents link.
    06/10/11 - Added Index, tidied up a few things, changed Recuperate usage point.
    12/10/11 - Added HaT tips.
    11/12/11 - Changed the stat priority and changed subsequent parts. Re-worded some parts.
    05/01/12 - Changed the stat priority a little to suit people keeping T12 2pc.

    To-do
    -BiS list
    -Index (Complete)
    -Macros (Complete)

    -Synek

    Drop me a PM or post here if you have any questions/want to see logs/whatever.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Credit to EJ/Omniwank/Shadowcraft for the values that this is based on and a compendium which helped write this.
    Credit to Nextormento for Hemo glyph value.
    Credit to steale, Dalarius and Nilmar for macros.

    EJ Discussion:
    http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t119013-...ty_compendium/
    Last edited by Synexlol; 2012-02-28 at 05:50 PM.

  2. #2
    Use Hemorrhage Glyph? Not buying it.

    If I recall the numbers correctly, it's a horrifically minor gain because you have to trade in some Backstab damage for the Hemorrhage bleed as opposed to Eviscerate + Shadowdance who boost your dps with no trade offs (except the 2 seconds in Shadowdance where you trade Ambushes + Find Weakness for Backstabs which would always be worth it).

    I want to see some math behind it please.

  3. #3
    It was actually modeled in Shadowcraft (ie. Hemo'ing every 24 seconds w/ the glyph) and came out ahead of Slice and Dice glyph. Nextormento may have the logs still if you want to shoot him a PM (or he may just stumble across this). There's also a few posts about it on the EJ thread if you root around.

  4. #4
    I was under the impression that it wasn't accurately modeled at all, but it's been awhile since I looked into it. However, the benefit of the Hemo glyph cannot be understated on fights where there is multiple target swapping, as being able to produce a bleed for 35 energy instantly is amazing.

  5. #5
    where did you get the idea that only doing 5 CP recuperates with some downtime is better than maintaining 100% uptime? the only reliable subtlety guide I know of, the one on elitist jerks, says this:

    Priority

    Slice and Dice > 5 CP Rupture > Recuperate > 5 CP Eviscerate
    since it specifically says 5 CPs for the moves that obviously need to be 5 CPs, but doesn't for recuperate, that implies to me that 100% uptime is more important than using a 5 CP recup every time. obviously, 5 point recups are preferred, while 1-point recups should be avoided at all costs (a 1 CP recup costs an average of 25 energy, while only refunding 24), but 2-4 CP recups all cause you to gain energy, so it can't possibly be a bad thing to use them instead of letting recup fall off.

    I was under the impression that it wasn't accurately modeled at all, but it's been awhile since I looked into it. However, the benefit of the Hemo glyph cannot be understated on fights where there is multiple target swapping, as being able to produce a bleed for 35 energy instantly is amazing.
    depends how good of a player you are. you always want to refresh your hemo bleed when find weakness is up, and if you do that it's a really good glyph.
    Last edited by Neazy; 2011-09-23 at 09:23 PM.

  6. #6
    Nice guide! It pretty much covers what you need to know. One thing you might want to consider adding as a sub note is that depending on your gear you might be able to drop a point out of Precision and throw it somewhere else. I know that in my particular situation I have enough hit where I can afford to lose 2% hit and still be right at the 8% specials hit cap without having to adjust my reforginges for it.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahdehl View Post
    I was under the impression that it wasn't accurately modeled at all, but it's been awhile since I looked into it. However, the benefit of the Hemo glyph cannot be understated on fights where there is multiple target swapping, as being able to produce a bleed for 35 energy instantly is amazing.
    Hemorrhage is 29 energy (Slaughter from the Shadows reduces cost by 6 at 3 ranks) and SV activates off any bleed, meaning a Warrior or Feral Druid can take care of that for you last time I checked.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    where did you get the idea that only doing 5 CP recuperates with some downtime is better than maintaining 100% uptime?
    I am inclined to agree with this guy. The EJ guide does not say anything about waiting on a 5 point Recup, and in my own experiences with the spec, you are much better off refreshing SnD and Recup as they fall off, and not waiting for 5 CPs. This is especially important when both are about to fall off at the same time. You can clip a Recup with a new one just as it ticks under 3 seconds, giving you enough to to get 2 CPs (one from BS and the other from HaT) to throw up a 2 point SnD as it wears off, minimizing downtime on both buffs.

    Anyone who has played Subtlety for any period of time knows that the scenario of SnD and Recup falling off is hardly rare. Trying to wait on 5 CPs for either ability is just gonna jam up the rotation.

    ---------- Post added 2011-09-23 at 06:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by The Chad View Post
    Hemorrhage is 29 energy (Slaughter from the Shadows reduces cost by 6 at 3 ranks) and SV activates off any bleed, meaning a Warrior or Feral Druid can take care of that for you last time I checked.
    Even if the Hemo glyph works out to be the same as the Shadowdance or Eviscerate glyph, it is still totally worth it to me to have the ability to throw up a bleed with minimal energy. You are not always privy to a warrior or Feral druid to bleed stuff for you, and Rupture takes to long to get up on a fast swap.

    Yeah, it is a little more work to maintain yet another buff/debuff in an already complicated dps cycle, but it is hardly the end of the world, and a well practiced Subtlety rogue is going to be able to manage it well with only a little practice.

    I have also seen some math on EJ suggesting that the Hemo glyph is ahead of ShD and Evis, although I read it awhile back (after Hemo got buffed), and haven't followed up on it much since. I do believe Shadowcraft only models Hemorrhage OR Backstab rotations, and does not model the Hemo refresh well in a Backstab rotation, at least if I remember correctly, so the math is all hypothetical.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    where did you get the idea that only doing 5 CP recuperates with some downtime is better than maintaining 100% uptime? the only reliable subtlety guide I know of, the one on elitist jerks, says this:
    since it specifically says 5 CPs for the moves that obviously need to be 5 CPs, but doesn't for recuperate, that implies to me that 100% uptime is more important than using a 5 CP recup every time. obviously, 5 point recups are preferred, while 1-point recups should be avoided at all costs (a 1 CP recup costs an average of 25 energy, while only refunding 24), but 2-4 CP recups all cause you to gain energy, so it can't possibly be a bad thing to use them instead of letting recup fall off.
    If you actually think about how Recuperate energy ticks work, you'll find that there is absolutely no benefit in sacrificing efficiency to keep 100% uptime. It's a simple trade off - You invest 30 energy and 5 Combo Points and get a return of 120 energy, giving a net gain of 90 energy. Ideally you will have 100% uptime, but it's not worth sacrificing energy efficiency to get a higher uptime. It's the same logic as using Rupture as Combat - You use it if it's down, you don't aim for maximum uptime (though ideally that's the case).

    One thing you might want to consider adding as a sub note is that depending on your gear you might be able to drop a point out of Precision and throw it somewhere else. I know that in my particular situation I have enough hit where I can afford to lose 2% hit and still be right at the 8% specials hit cap without having to adjust my reforginges for it.
    This point comes up a lot, actually. I know that this may not be what you're referring to, but many people see the value of Precision lying in the hit it gives you. That's not the case. It's value comes from the itemization that the extra 2% hit gives you when reforging. Assuming you are dumping hit when reforging, you usually end up around the 9% mark at very most. Unless you are still at over 10% hit while reforging fully out of hit, it's not worth dropping a point in Precision. That situation is quite rare and doesn't exist in BiS gear, so it's not really worth mentioning. Elusiveness and Initiative are both still your best bets if you want to drop some DPS points for survival/utility.
    Last edited by Synexlol; 2011-09-23 at 11:09 PM.

  10. #10
    We dont have any Information about Bosses and possible Buffs/Nerfs and yet you say Sub is looking to be the Orange Spec ?

    Good Guide but better wait for PTR atleast

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ripslyme View Post
    We dont have any Information about Bosses and possible Buffs/Nerfs and yet you say Sub is looking to be the Orange Spec ?

    Good Guide but better wait for PTR atleast
    I said that it's 'looking to be', and it is; it's scaling ahead of the other specs and it benefits more from higher item level weapons (which the Legendaries will no doubt be).

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Synexlol View Post
    If you actually think about how Recuperate energy ticks work, you'll find that there is absolutely no benefit in sacrificing efficiency to keep 100% uptime. It's a simple trade off - You invest 30 energy and 5 Combo Points and get a return of 120 energy, giving a net gain of 90 energy. Ideally you will have 100% uptime, but it's not worth sacrificing energy efficiency to get a higher uptime. It's the same logic as using Rupture as Combat - You use it if it's down, you don't aim for maximum uptime (though ideally that's the case).
    like I said, I get that 5 point recuperates are better, but using at least 2-point recuperates is always a net gain in energy, so there's no way it can be a dps loss to use a 2-pointer or a 4-pointer.

    it's not at all like combat's rupture because as combat a 5-point rupture does more damage per energy than a 4-point rupture. having 100% uptime on rupture is irrelevant as combat, because 5-pointers give you more damage. in the case of subtlety, using a 2-point recup gives you more energy than not using it at all and more energy equals more damage.

    if you were in a situation where your SnD has 20+ secs left, your recup is about to fall off in about 1s, and your rupture hass 14+ seconds left, I could see it being a gain to wait til 5 CPs to use recuperate instead of refreshing it with whatever CPs you have at the moment. but 95% of the time you don't have time to wait until 5 CPs because you have to refresh rupture/SnD and you would regen more energy by keeping 100% uptime, even if it means you have to use 2-4 CP recuperates.

    edited for clarification.
    Last edited by Neazy; 2011-09-23 at 11:35 PM.

  13. #13
    It's not about a 2 CP Recuperate being a DPS loss - It's not. However, it's an opportunity loss because you could have spent that 30 energy on a 5 CP Recuperate rather than a 2 CP one at no extra loss.

    A 2pt Recuperate is needed for it to be even worth using. In the case where Recuperate is about to drop and you have 2 CP, refreshing Recuperate with 2CP will give you a gain of 18 energy for spending 2CP. You could also wait ~3 seconds, lose a tick of Recuperate and thus 12 energy but gain 60 energy overall because you invested 5 CP rather than 2. I really don't know how to make it clearer.

    I still don't understand where you get the idea that uptime is more important at all, to be honest. Energetic Recovery doesn't work like that. Sure, Slice and Dice has to be kept up to a certain degree because you lose damage for every second it's not up, but Recuperate doesn't work like that - It's return is based entirely on how many Combo Points you invest in it.

  14. #14
    but you can't always wait 3 seconds and use 5 combo points or your rupture/SnD will fall off. that's my point. if those two things are NOT in danger of falling off, then yea, you should use a 5 CP recuperate. I even said that exact same thing:

    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy
    if you were in a situation where your SnD has 20+ secs left, your recup is about to fall off in about 1s, and your rupture hass 14+ seconds left, I could see it being a gain to wait til 5 CPs to use recuperate instead of refreshing it with whatever CPs you have at the moment. but 95% of the time you don't have time to wait until 5 CPs because you have to refresh rupture/SnD and you would regen more energy by keeping 100% uptime, even if it means you have to use 2-4 CP recuperates.
    however, I have played a lot of subtlety, and I know it doesn't work out perfectly like that. let's pretend you are be in a situation where your SnD has 8 seconds left, your rupture has 12 seconds, and your recuperate has 1s left. you have 2 combo points and 20 energy. you could build up to 5 CPs and use recuperate, but then SnD and rupture will both fall off for a huge DPS loss. you could ignore recuperate and just refresh SnD and rupture, but again that's a DPS loss. this is where you use a 2 CP recuperate.

  15. #15
    In a situation where waiting 3 seconds will cause SnD to drop (you should never be in a position where Rupture could drop because of this), you refresh SnD with whatever you have (and as late as possible I might add) and then put up a 5pt Recuperate. In a hypothetical situation where waiting 3 seconds to put up a 5pt Recuperate would cause both your SnD and Rupture to drop, you should refresh Rupture (assuming it's buffed), then Slice and Dice, then put up a 5pt Recuperate. If you put up a 2pt Recuperate then try to refresh both SnD and Rupture, one of them will drop, and the loss from dropping either is far greater than the grand total of 18 energy you gain from a 2pt Recuperate.

    The only situation that should arise is one where both Recuperate and SnD are going to fall off within a few seconds of each other. In that situation, you have a two options; refresh Recuperate at just under 3 seconds, then build 3-4 CPs and Slice and Dice (that is if SnD is behind Recuperate), or refresh SnD and then put up a 5pt Recuperate. No need to put up a 2pt Recuperate because the CPs are better spent keeping SnD up and then putting up a 5pt Recuperate.

    You don't do 2pt Recuperates. Ever.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    but you can't always wait 3 seconds and use 5 combo points or your rupture/SnD will fall off. that's my point. if those two things are NOT in danger of falling off, then yea, you should use a 5 CP recuperate. I even said that exact same thing:.
    This is what I was referring to in my last post as well. Sometimes it simply is not ideal to wait for a 5 CP Recup, if you have any interest in maintaining Rupture. Even in a 25 man raid with HaT proccing every ICD, things can get tight with Rupture, and not constantly having to rely on a 5 CP Recup loosens up spare CPs to guarantee Rupture's uptime. At least in my experience.

  17. #17
    so you're telling me that in the situation I described:

    however, I have played a lot of subtlety, and I know it doesn't work out perfectly like that. let's pretend you are be in a situation where your SnD has 8 seconds left, your rupture has 12 seconds, and your recuperate has 1s left. you have 2 combo points and 20 energy. you could build up to 5 CPs and use recuperate, but then SnD and rupture will both fall off for a huge DPS loss. you could ignore recuperate and just refresh SnD and rupture, but again that's a DPS loss. this is where you use a 2 CP recuperate.
    you would refresh SnD with a 5-pointer, then do a 5-point evis, then do a 5-point recuperate, giving you 10-15 seconds where you do not have recuperate up at all?

    I don't see any logical reason for doing that. if you do a 2-point recup, then refresh the other two, nothing would fall off. if you refresh the other two first and go all that time without recuperate, SnD/rupture don't fall off but you lose 24 energy by not having recuperate up. same outcome, except you have less energy.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Synexlol View Post
    You don't do 2pt Recuperates. Ever.
    I agree with this. I don't necessarily agree a 5 point Recup is always the best course of action in an actual raid setting however.

  19. #19
    Here's a few things.


    • 2 things about enchants:
      65 crit on cloak has a higher EP value for pretty much any setup with T12 4pc (and 2pc obviously). Next tier this might change back to 22 agility, however should currently be noted in my opinion.
      Assassin's Step maybe should be noted for movement heavy fights. There's not many right now where you'd play Sub and would not have ShS for the movement parts ready, but there may be some in the future tier again. Up to you if you'd like to note it.
    • You could add glyphs for your wowhead spec, even if you discuss them afterwards which would make the link look like this. In my opinion, a nice "one look for everything" feature.
    • Little typo at the cooldown section: preparation
    • You could add an index for quicksearch purposes, e.g.:
      #1 Spec
      #2 Glyphs
      #5.2 Opener
      With this people could just CTRL + F for "#5.2" and get to the Opener part. Quality of life.
    • You could add a BiS list if you plan to keep this thread up to date (and hopefully soon stickied).


    While this may look like a lot, you'll notice the "you could" pretty much everywhere. It's kind of how you want to have your guide look like and I just stated the things I liked about other guides/compendiums, etc. But I hope you understand those are all just propositions and that you have the freedom to decide if you'd like to use them or not. (While this may be obvious I've seen reactions to propositions you may not believe )

    This guide is well writen and structured, has the correct information and in my opinion should be stickied.
    Last edited by Ashvael; 2011-09-24 at 02:21 AM.

  20. #20
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    Might be a good idea to add useful macroes into the guide, for example to add Premeditation into your in stealth abilities to save keybindings, etc.

    oh btw, stickied!

    "Friends don't let friends be gnomes."

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