Synek's guide to the PvE Subtlety Rogue

[Viglante]

thanks for the response,

it's a shame you can't just have shadowcraft attach a "estimated" gain based purely on your agi and crit to the glyph with a * next to it and a note stating that it's not accurate, it just felt weird pluging in only 2 glyphs

does the gain of the hemo glyph over shadow dance change with 4pc? as going from 6-> 8 secs is a different gain to going from 8-> 10 i assume? compared to the hemo. glyph with just 4pc.

[nextormento]

It's not a matter of what can or cannot be done. Yours is a suggestion much like that of anyone else, and if it gets enough of a following it'll creep over to EJ and possibly eventualy to the web-app. However, in this particular case, I felt compelled to argue against it. To the same effect, we'd need to put asterisks everywhere to point out some minor adjustments that could be done in a miriad of situations; that is (imho) not the goal of the tool (and to be honest, it's been confusing enough for 4.3). For such minute details we have the EJ boards, where we discuss about the tool and about its outcome (for both things that the UI doens't expose, and stuff that we can hack in), and as such it is displayed in the sub compendium that the glyph is the best option. Given the nature of the project, a marriage between the forums and the tool is needed (to provide virifiable feedback to the comunity) and I personaly believe this is the best approach.

The stregth of the different glyphs changes with the tier set bonus, of course, but not enough for it to come ahead. That said, I believe it's current consensus that subtlety rogues are to run with 2pc_t12 + 2pc_t13. As I said, the estimates I posted are upper bounds, and the glyph remains ahead in any gearsetup with Firelands or later pieces; they depend heavily on specific gearsets, which you'd need to run through the engine if you really need to know the exact figures.

[Viglante]

It's not a matter of what can or cannot be done. Yours is a suggestion much like that of anyone else, and if it gets enough of a following it'll creep over to EJ and possibly eventualy to the web-app. However, in this particular case, I felt compelled to argue against it. To the same effect, we'd need to put asterisks everywhere to point out some minor adjustments that could be done in a miriad of situations; that is (imho) not the goal of the tool (and to be honest, it's been confusing enough for 4.3). For such minute details we have the EJ boards, where we discuss about the tool and about its outcome (for both things that the UI doens't expose, and stuff that we can hack in), and as such it is displayed in the sub compendium that the glyph is the best option. Given the nature of the project, a marriage between the forums and the tool is needed (to provide virifiable feedback to the comunity) and I personaly believe this is the best approach.

The stregth of the different glyphs changes with the tier set bonus, of course, but not enough for it to come ahead. That said, I believe it's current consensus that subtlety rogues are to run with 2pc_t12 + 2pc_t13. As I said, the estimates I posted are upper bounds, and the glyph remains ahead in any gearsetup with Firelands or later pieces; they depend heavily on specific gearsets, which you'd need to run through the engine if you really need to know the exact figures.

fair doos, the mentions of the T12 2pc i see generally assume it's Heroic 2pc,

where does normal mode T12_2pc vs T13 3pc go since the base agi/secondary gain from 19-26 ilevels seems massive compared to the 2pc bonus.

[Synexlol]

fair doos, the mentions of the T12 2pc i see generally assume it's Heroic 2pc,

where does normal mode T12_2pc vs T13 3pc go since the base agi/secondary gain from 19-26 ilevels seems massive compared to the 2pc bonus.

T12 2pc (normal) compared to T13 4pc (normal) would probably be similar to the heroic versions. T12 2pc (normal) is almost certainly behind T13 4pc (heroic). Shadowcraft can tell you this anyway if you plug in the different pieces.

[Viglante]

T12 2pc (normal) compared to T13 4pc (normal) would probably be similar to the heroic versions. T12 2pc (normal) is almost certainly behind T13 4pc (heroic). Shadowcraft can tell you this anyway if you plug in the different pieces.

i could but... i can't from work so thanks

[dicertification]

I've tried the Hemo Glyph a couple of raid nights. Personally I don't find it worth it. Perhaps I'm just not weaving it very well, and I did see some dps increase but it was so minor that I don't find it worthwhile. ShD just seems more consistant. Maybe with more practice with it I could get better numbers. At a 395 ilvl.

[Synexlol]

I've tried the Hemo Glyph a couple of raid nights. Personally I don't find it worth it. Perhaps I'm just not weaving it very well, and I did see some dps increase but it was so minor that I don't find it worthwhile. ShD just seems more consistant. Maybe with more practice with it I could get better numbers. At a 395 ilvl.

The difference is only ~400 DPS at most. If you feel it's not worth the effort (or is too difficult, which is fine) then feel free not to use it, but I feel obligated to point out it's value in the OP, regardless of how minuscule the difference is.

Even if you find that you're not getting the most out of it in terms of raw damage, it has uses beyond mere damage. Things like Oozes on Yor'Sahj and other adds this tier usually don't warrant a Rupture and other classes can't be trusted to apply a bleed on the first GCD (or at all), and in that case, the 16% extra damage you get from simply having a bleed up far outweighs any gain of another glyph.

[Dimgo]

One thing that I dont get, I know I have to use hemo at the start of the fight to get the buffed rupture, but after I have the buffed rupture rolling should I use hemo to apply rupture again? Or the initial buffed rupture with the 30% more bleed from hemo stays all the fight even if the hemo debuff is not applied again?

[Synexlol]

One thing that I dont get, I know I have to use hemo at the start of the fight to get the buffed rupture, but after I have the buffed rupture rolling should I use hemo to apply rupture again? Or the initial buffed rupture with the 30% more bleed from hemo stays all the fight even if the hemo debuff is not applied again?

DoTs (namely Rupture) update on a per-tick basis with boss debuffs, so you have to keep the Hemorrhage debuff up all the time. If you have an Arms Warrior or a Feral Druid, they will probably be applying it for you, so you don't have to -- unless you're using the Hemo Glyph, in which case you should be keeping the DoT (and thus the debuff) up yourself.

[Dimgo]

DoTs (namely Rupture) update on a per-tick basis with boss debuffs, so you have to keep the Hemorrhage debuff up all the time. If you have an Arms Warrior or a Feral Druid, they will probably be applying it for you, so you don't have to -- unless you're using the Hemo Glyph, in which case you should be keeping the DoT (and thus the debuff) up yourself.

Thank you for the answer!

So if I dont have someone to apply the bleed debuff I have to apply by myself via hemo every minute, but if Im using the hemo glyph I should apply hemo every 24secs because of the bleed?

[niteline]

Thank you for the answer!

So if I dont have someone to apply the bleed debuff I have to apply by myself via hemo every minute, but if Im using the hemo glyph I should apply hemo every 24secs because of the bleed?

Yep! and clipping is not really a dps loss. but try to refresh it as late as possible

[chuwule]

very nice guide synek but Sub is still the illegitimate nephew compared too the other 2 specs.
Probs for the guide tho

[Loktarok]

To expand more on on Hemo and Bleed effect. My question is: If i don't apply Hemo before Rupture on pull will that rupture be without 30% damage then to a rupture i applied after hemo? I feel really stupid asking this question.

I really should know this by now, but i did notice a dps increase in applying hemo before rupture. I was just a little concerned about losing the combo points on pull (Prem+Ambush=5 and 1 from initiative if it procs and then hemo crit for 2 more).

Basically does applying hemo first outweigh the combo point loss?

PS. I've read up online and found my answer sorta. I still think this question is relevant to others and myself. So i'm going to ask it anyway ;p

[Synexlol]

To expand more on on Hemo and Bleed effect. My question is: If i don't apply Hemo before Rupture on pull will that rupture be without 30% damage then to a rupture i applied after hemo? I feel really stupid asking this question.

I really should know this by now, but i did notice a dps increase in applying hemo before rupture. I was just a little concerned about losing the combo points on pull (Prem+Ambush=5 and 1 from initiative if it procs and then hemo crit for 2 more).

Basically does applying hemo first outweigh the combo point loss?

PS. I've read up online and found my answer sorta. I still think this question is relevant to others and myself. So i'm going to ask it anyway ;p

Boss debuffs (such as the Hemo debuff) don't work like that. DoTs (Rupture) update on a per-tick basis with boss debuffs, so putting up Hemo after Rupture is fine as long as you put up Hemo ASAP. You will lose 30% on one tick at most. I don't know if that damage is worth wasting a CP over (I doubt it is).

-------------------

Just a heads up; I'm quitting raiding/WoW in general. I won't be updating this thread with future updates to the Sub spec. Feel free to un-sticky this whenever you feel that it is out of date. I'll stick around on the forum for a little while to answer questions, though.

Best of luck pals.

[Viglante]

does anyone know whether garotte ticks can proc spellweave on madness?

because if so does it make it worth doing a single garotte (to apply the find weakness debuff) per shadow dance as the extra spellweave procs cover the damg differance between a garotte and a (no weaknes) ambush?

[Mugajak]

Unless I've missed something, basic LFR testing on Madness showed me doing approximately 0 spellweave damage when attacking only targets with no others in 6 yards, which would indicate that spellweave doesn't hit the target that it procs on, but only surrounding enemies. To this end, I can't imagine what you'd Garotte that would remain alive, whose center would remain within 6 yards of another target's hitbox, and I think you'd just be garotting one enemy as a result, or blowing a bleed on a single blood rather than just spamming FoK /w wound poison up.

[Viglante]

Unless I've missed something, basic LFR testing on Madness showed me doing approximately 0 spellweave damage when attacking only targets with no others in 6 yards, which would indicate that spellweave doesn't hit the target that it procs on, but only surrounding enemies. To this end, I can't imagine what you'd Garotte that would remain alive, whose center would remain within 6 yards of another target's hitbox, and I think you'd just be garotting one enemy as a result, or blowing a bleed on a single blood rather than just spamming FoK /w wound poison up.

thats quite impressive and inaccurate.

using the standard(at least for ones i run) green->red->yelloe->blue
i can have spellweave proc from my hemo and rupture left on the yellow claw while i am dpsing red. displayed by a blue bolt leaving my body and flying of to the right ( a nice visual effect showing the proc).

since it can proc this way on targets even over 40 yards away from dots your post does not answer my question.

is it worth using a single garotte on the corruptor tentacle to aply the find weakness debuff as the damg lsot from not ambishing is covered in the fact that garotte ticks proc spellweave-> does garotte proc spellweave as if it does it works out like

max ambush damg = ambush + spellweave
min ambush damg = ambush

max garotte damg = garotte+ 6 spellweaves
min garotte damg = garotte

obviously it will fall some where between the two but going of spellweaves 35% proc chance with 5 ticks your average will be 2.1 procs while the average for ambush will be 0.35,

is the damg from (2.1-0.35=) 1.75 spellweave procs more than the damg lost from using garotte instead of ambush to apply find weakenss.

spellweave procs seem to hit for "about" 24k so thats a 42k damg from spellweave that garotte does more than ambush assuming it can proc it.

comparing one single ambush (with no weakness already up) compared to a single garotte(which weaknes does not effect)
would you do 42k more damg with that ambush?

[Mugajak]

Who said anything about it not proccing? I said it wouldn't do any damage.

i too was wondering this, as firemages consistently do double the amount of spellweave hits than me.

The facts from the tooltip:
Spellweave does not hit your current target
Spellweave only hits something that is in 6yd range

*cough*

It's the same way you can cast FoK at the Maelstrom before engaging in combat. Sure, you can AoE, but that doesn't mean you're doing damage.

Edit: if it's unclear, this makes the calculations above moot, unless you've kept something alive to proc Spellweave off of, but then you're comparing putting up garotte on a secondary target to ambushing a main target... which between CP from ambush, HAT, Find Weakness, and not hitting the mob in the first place, is almost certainly a DPS loss.

[Viglante]

Who said anything about it not proccing? I said it wouldn't do any damage.



*cough*

It's the same way you can cast FoK at the Maelstrom before engaging in combat. Sure, you can AoE, but that doesn't mean you're doing damage.

Edit: if it's unclear, this makes the calculations above moot, unless you've kept something alive to proc Spellweave off of, but then you're comparing putting up garotte on a secondary target to ambushing a main target... which between CP from ambush, HAT, Find Weakness, and not hitting the mob in the first place, is almost certainly a DPS loss.

Edit: after checking tooltip it didn't say anywhere "not the target it procs on" but wol confirms it doesn't damg the target it procs on making this workings out moop except for possibly using a "garotte" on the claw tentacle right before a wave of regen blood comes in (through vanish saving dance for the cataclysm) but that stil breaks down if your raid fails to stack and so bloods arn't near enough claw.

[riojano0]

Wow! Nice guide. Thanks