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  1. #161
    Stood in the Fire Ujio's Avatar
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    Hi guys, thought I'd contribute to my favorite specs thread!

    Since i recently went night elf for more aesthetically pleasing rogue looks and an extra opener with shadowmeld i had a hard time finding how you actually get to use your openers from it (since you don't go to your stealth bar when using it). Anyway here are some convenient macros to replace your abilities on your non stealth bar:

    #showtooltip
    /startattack [nostealth]
    /cast [nostealth] Backstab; [stealth] Ambush

    #showtooltip
    /startattack [nostealth]
    /cast [nostealth] Hemorrhage; [stealth] Garrote

    #showtooltip
    /startattack [nostealth]
    /cast [nostealth] Eviscerate; [stealth] Cheap Shot
    "You’ve shown great conviction. Strength. Courage. All noble qualities. I should have killed you long ago."

  2. #162
    Fluffy Kitten Siri's Avatar
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    I use a castsequence macro on my druid, like this:
    #showtooltip
    /castsequence reset=10 Shadowmeld, Pounce
    should work by just replacing Pounce with Ambush.

    That way I don't have to use up a ton of extra macro slots for things.

    -----------------------------

    Back to the topic of DI again.
    Mugajak pointed out a flaw in simcraft to me and I redid the numbers.
    Actual rdps contribution from putting DI on a sub rogue should be around 4000, still below the very top but not complete crap.
    Last edited by Siri; 2011-12-22 at 04:07 AM.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Matutin View Post
    I was talking about sub being way below the other 2 rogue specs, on DS there are a few fights where sub way better than combat/mut.
    in DS Assasination is best on 0 fights
    sub best on 1/2 and combat the otehr 1/2 due to cleave on 2 targets all fights for rogues are either single or 2 targetish leading it to be sub or combat. assasination does not win against single targets anymore agaisnt sub.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Viglante View Post
    in DS Assasination is best on 0 fights
    sub best on 1/2 and combat the otehr 1/2 due to cleave on 2 targets all fights for rogues are either single or 2 targetish leading it to be sub or combat. assasination does not win against single targets anymore agaisnt sub.
    I think Kin used Assas Rogue for their Madness of Deathwing World First

  5. #165
    This thread is just a well of info

  6. #166
    Just a bit OT but since its about SUB I thought to ask here. Is the crit chance you see on armory calculated with just pure gear/stats/gems or does the 5% crit chance from HaT affect the percentage there?
    @ Topic: nice work mate. Thanks for keeping it up2date

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by BondGirl View Post
    Just a bit OT but since its about SUB I thought to ask here. Is the crit chance you see on armory calculated with just pure gear/stats/gems or does the 5% crit chance from HaT affect the percentage there?
    @ Topic: nice work mate. Thanks for keeping it up2date
    HaT/raid buffs aren't counted on the Armory; it's just your raw, unbuffed stats.

  8. #168
    When you reached the crit cap of 40%, so your ambush always crits, is it benificial to continue prioritizing crit over spell hit?

    My apoligizes when this has already been told, I must have missed it then.
    Last edited by Mieopah; 2011-12-26 at 05:09 PM.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Mieopah View Post
    When you reached the crit cap of 40%, so your ambush always crits, is it benificial to continue prioritizing crit over spell hit?

    My apoligizes when this has already been told, I must have missed it then.
    Hitting the Ambush crit cap won't change your stat priority.

  10. #170
    Hey, gang. If you have way more hit than necessary, is it beneficial to drop a point (or 2) from Precision to fill out Coup de Grace, or do you get enough more out of poison/white damage to make keeping the hit talent worthwhile?

    Edit: there was some discussion earlier in the thread about the value of Precision being in the reforgable stats it gives you. I'm talking about a case where, when you have too much hit to forge out of, is Precision or Coup de Grace (or some other talent) a higher dps gain?
    Last edited by Amuramie; 2011-12-27 at 03:31 PM.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Amuramie View Post
    Hey, gang. If you have way more hit than necessary, is it beneficial to drop a point (or 2) from Precision to fill out Coup de Grace, or do you get enough more out of poison/white damage to make keeping the hit talent worthwhile?

    Edit: there was some discussion earlier in the thread about the value of Precision being in the reforgable stats it gives you. I'm talking about a case where, when you have too much hit to forge out of, is Precision or Coup de Grace (or some other talent) a higher dps gain?
    I don't think it's possible to get enough hit this tier to be able to drop a point in precision and still be above the yellow cap in ideal reforging. Even if it was, the 2% spell hit is worth more than any other talent you could put that point in, last I checked.

  12. #172
    Stood in the Fire Ujio's Avatar
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    Disregarding needing a combat offspec for DS - is it possible to vendetta prepull via assass then switch to sub? or do you lose the vendetta on the target?
    "You’ve shown great conviction. Strength. Courage. All noble qualities. I should have killed you long ago."

  13. #173
    Mechagnome Tekloth's Avatar
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    I'd assume that you'll lose Vendetta on the target after changing specs, since as far as I know they fixed the pre-pull CP buildup with Sub and then changing specs to either Combat or Assa.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by totoat View Post
    You don't lose energy for every second Recuperate is up. You lose damage for every second SnD is not up, but Recuperate doesn't work like that. There is no benefit to keeping Recuperate up with 2-3 CPs when you sacrifice efficiency. As long as you're not neglecting putting Recuperate up ASAP, using only 5 CP Recuperates is the best thing to do, in all situations.
    Admittedly, I thought the same as you, initially. Energy per second is what matters, however, and the longer it takes you to get from 4 to 5 Combo Points, the less efficient that 5CP Recuperate is relative to the 4CP one. In most cases, a 5CP Recuperate is best, but if Recuperate would otherwise be down for more than 2-3 seconds, using a ~3CP Recuperate is better. It's very small gains, though, so it doesn't really make much difference.

    I think it's safe to assume that Vendetta will drop when you change spec, much like a Subtlety-buffed Slice and Dice will drop when you change spec (they changed this in mid-T11 after people abused it).

  15. #175
    something worth noting from the warlock forums ->
    if your warlock is Affliction Sub rogues are ahead of Fire mages in terns of raidgain from DI.
    if not affliction we are 4th for raid dps gain.

    i hope your looking forward to another 3% haste and inc hemobleed/rupture/deadly ticks

  16. #176
    i was playing around in shadowcraft and surrdnely realised it would only let me either completely ignore Hemorrhage or it would only use Hemorrhage and not use backstab, is there anyway to get it to "only refresh hemo for glyph" ?

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Viglante View Post
    i was playing around in shadowcraft and surrdnely realised it would only let me either completely ignore Hemorrhage or it would only use Hemorrhage and not use backstab, is there anyway to get it to "only refresh hemo for glyph" ?
    It's not modeled in the live version of Shadowcraft. The OP is based on tests ran by Nextormento (who you should direct Shadowcraft-Hemo related questions to). With the modeling issues surrounding the daggers and some trinkets/weapons this tier, I doubt that working the Hemo glyph into the live version is a high priority.

  18. #178
    Just to reiterate, as Synex pointed out, the live-app doesn't have a way to tell the engine to weave hemorrhage into the cycle. The engine does model it to a certain degree and I keep monitoring the behaviour of the glyph with every update; so far, general consensus is what you can read in here or in Pathal's compendium in EJ. Not much work has been done since the 4.3 update but, if anything changes our mind about the cycles, or the hemo glyph or anythign else, I'll promptly post in either or both of these guides.

    And yes, if you have unanswered questions that you think I could help with, feel free to pm me and we'll see what can be done.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by nextormento View Post
    Just to reiterate, as Synex pointed out, the live-app doesn't have a way to tell the engine to weave hemorrhage into the cycle. The engine does model it to a certain degree and I keep monitoring the behaviour of the glyph with every update; so far, general consensus is what you can read in here or in Pathal's compendium in EJ. Not much work has been done since the 4.3 update but, if anything changes our mind about the cycles, or the hemo glyph or anythign else, I'll promptly post in either or both of these guides.

    And yes, if you have unanswered questions that you think I could help with, feel free to pm me and we'll see what can be done.
    would it be posible to do a "quick fix" in shadowcraft and just apply a dps gain value to the hemo glyph which represents a guess at how much dps it gains you from using? or if not is there an external estimator for hemo for glyph refresh only use? i imagine it's the damg differance between backstab and hemo once every 24 secs and that damg lost is taken away from the damg the glyph would do on average if it ticked for the whole fight. this wouldn't model it compeltely ue to the reduction in energy cost of hemo with the counterside that a hemo crit doesn't give a 5 energy return. or the workings that x number of backstabs are actualy ambushes your turning into hemos. but it would be nice to have an idea how much it gains us.

  20. #180
    Some other web tools do such things as guesses and incremental factors to represent what the 'theorycrafting consensus' look like. In ShadowCraft we cannot, o should not, do that since this is the tool that is broadly used to construct such guesses in the first place. There are more issues in place as to why it isn't still implemented; for instance, many users *do* expect to see the glyph scoring something (other than 0), when selecting a pure backstab cycle in a fashion much like what you'd like it to 'guess' even if you have no way of choosing the interweaved cycle. Unfortunately I only work on the engine side, so any update to the UI is out of my reach.

    As for how much of an impact the glyph has: when Synexlol and I studied the glyph, it was deemed as a very slight upgrade but we also noticed it scaled pretty well. As of this writing, the engine is computing ~1200 dps from the hemorrhage dot in a reasonably close to BiS gear setup, refreshing the dot every 24'' sharp (which would be the highest it could get). Now, this is not to say the glyph is worth 1.2k of your dps, as you're swapping it for another glyph (namely Shadow Dance); all in all, the difference is about ~650dps in favor of the glyph.

    Now, this 24''sharp refresh is not a realistic figure to start with (as you'd be refreshing it at around ~23''), and the value is lower if you're not sporting the BiS setup, but it's always higher than the next best option if your gear is t12 normal or higher. Also, the model expects the refresh to occur out of shadowdance, which is not always the case (you'll clip the dot prior to shd, thus the figure would be lower), so this number should be treated more as an upper bound of what the glyph can achieve. See that the dps difference is ~1.3%, so it is certainly worth considering but, given the current 'too many buffs to juggle' stigma that the spec carries (it's very much doable, don't get me wrong, but I see some people still struggling with it), its usage is more of a personal preference than anything: if you are the bleed debuff provider, or have long periods during which you cannot backstab, the glyph is a must have; in every other case, I just see it as a good thing to be able to do, but not a deal-breaker.

    *Edit: I must admit the figures I'm posting are a tad too high for what I would expect. I still need to cleanup my repo a bit so I might update/tweak these findings.
    Last edited by nextormento; 2012-01-17 at 02:21 PM.

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