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  1. #1

    Do you think Blizzard succeeded with whole rotation mini game in Cata?

    With rotation mini game I mean mostly PvE rotations as these don't work well in PvP. In my opinion whole rotation mini game they tried to enchant in Cata failed and I didn't find it interesting. Pressing 123 or 321 doesn't seem much fun to me. I prefer where you use skills when situation ask for it like you use distracting shot to save healer after tank died or you frost nova group of mobs that could else kill healer/tank etc.

    I am not saying that rotation mini game doesn't require any skill. Actually I think it take some skill to learn and master your rotation, but it's just I find it very dull game mechanic. I also think it's too easily exploited and it's getting out of control how many are exploiting it.

    So some of you may say "What there is no exploit's in WoW, Blizzard bans bots/exploits!!!", it's true they ban sometimes (quite slow if you ask me), but there are some exploits they don't seem to care much or don't want to invest money to deal with (investing money to ban subscribers is like paying to lose more money). There is a lot of exploits that simplify that rotation mini game to single button pressing or completely automate it, if Blizzard was dealing with the problem and banning players using these then there wouldn't be so many of these programs. There is macro programs that do it simple sending keystrokes/click and using addons to get info out of game, there is bots and then there is lua hacks that let players to use protected functions.

    These lua hacks that let you make custom one button macros have become very common and last I checked there was several of these in some well known websites (don't ask links in pm). There is even program that is designed to do optimal rotations for you. Here is screen shot of one such program (I removed name of the program).

    In my opinion Blizzard should either start working on detecting these exploits or move away from whole rotation mini game. Right now they are doing either and there is players who use these exploits and gain advantage of these and players who don't use or know about these exploits. Many players who use these exploits are able to join good raiding guilds and seem like better player they actually are.

  2. #2
    In what way does other players ways of using their rotations affect your gameplay? I fail to see a problem here, if there's programs that helps people perform better I think its just for the good. What about people who are handicapped that wants to play, arent they supposed to get a chance too? I think this is where blizzard could actually implement this for those who can maybe only use one hand or have a similar handicap.
    Last edited by Trollfaced; 2011-09-26 at 01:09 PM.
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  3. #3
    There is no such thing as a fixed rotation anymore.
    Sure certainly some classes or specs have due to mechanics rather simple priorities approaching a fixed roatation, but it isnt quite that.
    Certainly there is too little reason much of the time to actually respond to something unexpected, but thats more an encounter design issue rather than class design.

    Any such exploit is risking, and will usually be a loss in dps.

    There is no excuse for someone to resort however to automation to play the game for them.
    If someone has difficulties in playing the game for whatever reason, it does not justify them being able to break the rules that others are supossed to abide by.
    Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2011-09-26 at 04:01 PM.

  4. #4
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    Are you refering to PvE in WoW as a "mini-game"? If so, my brain just imploded AND exploded.

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  5. #5
    I've actually tried the exact program you showed in your screenshot...not because I wanted to use it but because I wanted to see if it was really optimal.

    It's not, although it did good DPS compared to most noobs who play this game, it is a drop from what progression dps'ers do. DPS is situational at times, and you just can't immitate it with a program.

    If you want the most DPS you can get out of your toon, then you need to perfect your priority action list, no program can do that...atleast not yet.

    Edit: ALSO, this program makes you COMPLETELY forget how to play your class because it is essentially playing it for you. Once the developper stops supporting this exploit or blizzard finds a way to counter against it, anyone who uses it will be screwed.

  6. #6
    People have always used macros (hunters in vanilla, fury 1 button dps macro in wotlk) and external programs (autohotkey, hotkeynet) to automate dps, doesn't matter if you have fixed rotations (the Elemental Shaman rotation used to be CL, LB, LB, LB, LB [with a bolt more if you had haste] in TBC - how easy is that to put into a macro?) or dynamic priorities like we have now, the latter is just far more interesting to play than spamming your [Frost/Fire/Shadow/Lightning] Bolt over and over.

    However neither of those should affect dynamic gameplay like you describe because tanks still die and adds still exist (skeletons on nef come to mind, worms on Corborus, cultists on High Priestess Azil, blood on Cho'Gall) that need to be dealt with using Frost Nova/Ring of Frost/Blizzard/AoE.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollfaced View Post
    In what way does other players ways of using their rotations affect your gameplay? I fail to see a problem here, if there's programs that helps people perform better I think its just for the good. What about people who are handicapped that wants to play, arent they supposed to get a chance too? I think this is where blizzard could actually implement this for those who can maybe only use one hand or have a similar handicap.
    You might want to ask that from Blizzard and why they haven't yet allowed such programs. I am only saying my opinion about whole rotation mini game and how I think it failed, it being so easily exploitable is just part of reason why I think it failed. Mostly I don't like whole rotation mini game because it's so dull game mechanic.

    ---------- Post added 2011-09-26 at 01:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by falasteen View Post
    I've actually tried the exact program you showed in your screenshot...not because I wanted to use it but because I wanted to see if it was really optimal.

    It's not, although it did good DPS compared to most noobs who play this game, it is a drop from what progression dps'ers do. DPS is situational at times, and you just can't immitate it with a program.

    If you want the most DPS you can get out of your toon, then you need to perfect your priority action list, no program can do that...atleast not yet.

    Edit: ALSO, this program makes you COMPLETELY forget how to play your class because it is essentially playing it for you. Once the developper stops supporting this exploit or blizzard finds a way to counter against it, anyone who uses it will be screwed.
    I suppose it depend a lot on class that use it and how you use it. Also I didn't meant my post to be about just that specific program, but generally about how exploitable whole rotation mini game is. Lua hacks allows you to make macros that use protected lua to prevent lot of mistakes for example preventing accidentally using some ability like not using kick/wind shear/cs unless boss is casting spell you are supposed or even can interrupt.

    ---------- Post added 2011-09-26 at 02:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Are you refering to PvE in WoW as a "mini-game"? If so, my brain just imploded AND exploded.
    No
    Last edited by leipuri; 2011-09-26 at 02:00 PM.

  8. #8
    I think that my mind imploded and exploded also. What exactly do you mean with the term 'rotation mini-game'? Is this a complaint on single-target tank n spanks? You want to run around more? Would you like to see certain attacks only available at certain times during encounters? I'm supposing that you prefer pvp and that is cool if so. But... Do you have any suggestion for an alternative to having a rotation for classes? It seems that you're not happy that others are out dps'ing you because they use macros/add-ons or that you don't like having a rotation at all. I use macros and add-ons mostly for the purposes of customization and ease of use of my interface. I don't use them much for my rotation, if at all. If I did use them to handle my rotation for me it would make my performance worse, plain and simple. There are too many variables involved in dps for a macro/add-on to be able to out perform a player that knows their class. As far as I'm concerned, if someone wants a program to play their character for them, more power to them. I'm still going to blow them out of the water on damage. The only advantage I can see to playing that way would be that you'd be able to log on, go raid, and do it while not having to do anything at all. (The term 'Gear Whore' comes to mind.) That doesn't make for rewarding game play. Having a rotation does make for rewarding gameplay though. Because without it, well, hmm, I don't think WoW would be much of a game at all. I guess you could turn encounters into a first-person shooter setup, lol. Taking macros/add-ons out of the game isn't an option either because many of those improve and innovate gameplay. If you're upset that someone is getting something that you want because they do things different from you then why not go do what they do?
    Last edited by trippy524; 2011-09-26 at 03:09 PM.

  9. #9
    ...your bitching/complaining did nothing but make you look like a whiny kid. Most of the morons on here kvetch and complain but offer ZERO solutions to their perceived problem. Again, if you have an issue with the "mini-game", why not present a solution instead of just saying how you hate the game. No one is listening to you. If you went into your boss and started complaining about something at work, the first thing any good manager would do is ask "Well, what solution do you offer? If you have none, get out of my office please".

    BTW, that program works wonders as I'm one handed (due to a war injury) and it's made me love the game again as I can control everything now with my razer naga and raid just fine. Whomever says it is a DPS loss is partially correct, but my dps is just fine to drop guys in HM Firelands.

    Not having to worry so much about 20 button combos (with the exception of arcane mages....who shouldn't complain AT ALL) really helps to be situationally aware. Before the "hardcore" come out of their shells, I don't give a rat's ass about how "pro" you are at playing a videogame. At the end of the day your "Firelord" title and $4 will get you a coffee at Starbucks...nothing more.

    Infracted; watch your language and don't get so vitriolic.
    Last edited by Zaelsino; 2011-09-26 at 04:28 PM.

  10. #10
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    This is stupid. If arcane mage is to hard for you, you are retared. I dont care if there is a program that can help handicaped people to play better, I dont even mind noobs having this. All that program does is dps and time it well. If all this is great for PVE, damn i hate slackers and people that join for PVE and help for shit.

    And i bet u 100$ that any one above 1200 rating can play better PVP than that bot.

    I dont see a problem here, nothing to see here, move along.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by jackus View Post
    This is stupid. If arcane mage is to hard for you, you are retared. I dont care if there is a program that can help handicaped people to play better, I dont even mind noobs having this. All that program does is dps and time it well. If all this is great for PVE, damn i hate slackers and people that join for PVE and help for shit.

    And i bet u 100$ that any one above 1200 rating can play better PVP than that bot.

    I dont see a problem here, nothing to see here, move along.
    Exactly, it's more for PVE than anything. But I must ask, what is retared? Or handicaped? The forums do have spellcheck guys. When trying to post an argument, at least don't come across as (INFRACTION HERE). Serioulsy, noobs is somehow not flaming but what I said was. Bite me MMO Champion.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by leipuri View Post
    With rotation mini game I mean mostly PvE rotations as these don't work well in PvP. In my opinion whole rotation mini game they tried to enchant in Cata failed and I didn't find it interesting. Pressing 123 or 321 doesn't seem much fun to me. I prefer where you use skills when situation ask for it like you use distracting shot to save healer after tank died or you frost nova group of mobs that could else kill healer/tank etc.
    It seems to me that you want more interesting fight mechanics rather than ability rotations.

  13. #13
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    I think Brightamethyst hit it on the head. And for what it's worth, I still find myself using my ranged taunt and kiting ability often on my hunter.
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  14. #14
    I'm the developer of the application you posted a screenshot of, so maybe I can share my thoughts on the rotation system and why I released that program.

    The program was originally designed for a friend who played WoW who was handicapped, he loved raiding but simply couldn't perform a rotation well enough to be allowed into any real raiding guild. I made the program, he could suddenly DPS (and DPS well, might I add), and he enjoyed raiding for a couple of years until he was bored with WoW and quit.

    Myself on the other hand, I had been raiding for about 3 years and I was just tired of all the repetition the rotation system gave. I still enjoyed raiding, but I was tired of spamming my rotation for hours on end in raids... it just sucked the fun out of it. After developing the first versions of my application I immediately started to enjoy raiding again, you could actually sit back and enjoy the actual content in the game rather than mindlessly spamming keys.

    In the end, some people like pressing their keys to push their 'skills' to the max. I've actually been raiding in a top 20 world guild until early Cataclysm (it died... like so many did.) and I have found that only the very top tier of raiders have been able to consistently play better than me(and my program), and it was minor.. VERY minor. Only in the area of a few hundred DPS.

    The program is actually an assistant more than it is a bot, I consider bots to have full control over the character... determining target, moving, etc. The program (intentionally) only acts as an aid. You still move your character, you still control if you should single target or AOE, you still control targetting, you still need to react to debuffs, environment changes, etc, etc etc. It just does the DPSing for you.
    Last edited by Xelper; 2011-09-26 at 08:19 PM.

  15. #15
    I think they are doing quite well for a lot of classes. Having a priority system that can and does change with procs makes for more dynamic gameplay. The ones who not only have the knowledge of their character but the skill to back it up become very formidable against other players.
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  16. #16
    So, you miss the days of Frost Nova and Distracting Shot?






    Where did those go again? Oh yeah, they're still there. The only thing that changed was classes like Warlocks in BC that literally hit one button for an entire fight (not like Arcane Mages with mana management, they literally spammed Shadowbolt and nothing else) now have 4+ buttons to hit to do effective DPS. Elemental Shamans used to do nothing but spam LB and hit LvB on cooldown and keep FS up. Then they added in a proc and managing Shock cooldowns to blow Fulmination charges.

    Even Arcane Mages used to just be ABx4/ArB over and over again, now they adjust what they do based on their mana and have to time burn phases and regen phases.

    Blizzard didn't remove utility skills from the game, people just got better so they aren't needed anymore.
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  17. #17
    Xelper makes a lot of good points about his application here. Since Arcane Mages are being brought up I'll reference to that. First off, using add-ons for my rotation is not something I'm interested in doing at all. However, I really really enjoy playing my arcane mage in Cata because my focus isn't on my rotation as much as it is on situational awareness. Improperly timed CD's and bad mana management will destroy an arcane mages dps drastically. I'm not saying other classes have to manage those things less, but my focus is definitely not on my rotation as much as it is on everything else. I don't do this personally, but making a macro for spriests/locks that applies whatever dot is missing is a great idea. Who cares if your hitting less buttons. You still have to take care of the issue. If the macro/add-on isn't deciding for you how to handle a situation, (moving your character, targetting, choosing single target/aoe attacking, etc.), then there is no dps advantage/disadvantage of using it. I can hit buttons faster then a global cooldown all day long. An add-on like that isn't going to make me more efficient unless I wasn't paying attention in the first place. I'm tired. Hope I'm making sense. Jumping back to what I started saying, lol, I really really enjoy playing my arcane mage in comparison to my other chars because I'm focusing on different things it seems. It's a refreshing difference in dps design. And from what I'm getting from Xelper's comments about the application, the main thing it does is provide an experience that focuses less on rotation and more on situational awareness. That's a plus in my mind. I really can't see it as cheating, taking advantage of the system, etc, because it still won't allow someone to handle situational gameplay any differently then I would. I don't really care who had to push more buttons if both players had to pay attention to what was going on.
    Last edited by trippy524; 2011-09-26 at 10:46 PM.

  18. #18
    blizz eliminated rotations in cataclysm, not the only way around. there are only shot priorities now

    and anyone using a 3rd party program to automate their abilities will do sub par dps

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Are you refering to PvE in WoW as a "mini-game"? If so, my brain just imploded AND exploded.
    +1 for reading my already imploded and exploded brain!

    On topic. There are no rotations that are currently 100% the same every time. Every class has procs now that they do something with those procs for more dps. PvE is not a minigame if anything was it would be PvP.
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  20. #20
    The "game" of it is fun sometimes, but other times it makes me scream"Why the fuck did they do this stupid RNG bull shit" Because I play fury as an OS and strings of misses, and then strings of extra rage, and having to rely on enrage as part of the rotation. It really doesn't become a game, it becomes a"How hard are the RNG gods going to fuck me on this fight?"

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