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  1. #61
    Mechagnome
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    Early as this is I expect it to get revamped some.
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  2. #62
    It's not so much that I think the damage increase will be huge, it's more that they are rendering an entire aspect of spriest pointless. Once you reach a point where you always have 3 orbs up the orbs don't matter anymore. Like I said before they might as well just get rid of orbs and buff MB to do the damage it does with 3 orbs.

    The point about terrain and the "special" apparitions is sort of what I was getting at and at the basis of my nervousness about that 4pc. Pretty much that unless they do something either mechanicwise or just nerf'ing the proc chance on apparitions we are going to always have 3 orbs up, which I don't think they are intending, and honestly both of those solutions seem awful to me.

  3. #63
    orbs give 30% additional MB damage.

    tier 11 set bonus gives 25% bonus. You could consider that an equivalent to adding 2.5 orbs. Except that this buff stacks with the buff of the orbs, very valuable.

    Now there is the matter of the DOT bonus... which is harder to quantify without someone that can actually test this in a model.

    Again I say, this buff is very questionable, OP? no, I dont think it is at all...

    Anyone have data on their average orb value per MB used on C/D in current content? That would give us a fairly definitive answer to this, if we presumed that we averaged 2orbs, than this would roughly equate to a 10% buff to MB and dots, but not MF. Then you could calculate the % of DPS from dots and MB, and determine the actual bonus this provides.

    This test wouldnt be perfect, because orb generation is directly related to haste, so Tier 13 should see us more orbs on average.

    ---------- Post added 2011-09-25 at 03:49 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Twintop View Post
    My thoughts on the Shadow bonuses:

    2p -- This has got to be in response to us eventually losing the 2p T12 bonus causing Shadowfiend to be used more often in respect to more Shadowfiends = more mana regen. I also have a feeling that the 2p is going to cause SWD to be used on cooldown because of not worrying about excess damage and the improved output. Sub-25% this is going to absolutely rape.

    4p -- This is Blizzard's fix to our crappy RNG. If it was just from Shadowfiend damage, then I'd shrug it off, but because it is from Shadow Apparitions also this makes it almost guaranteed. On this week's H: Shannox 25 kill I had 355 Shadowy Apparitions do damage over 4:09, or nearly 1.5 SAs hitting PER SECOND. This is definitely nothing to scoff at.
    I do not know how you managed this....

    12% chance for each pain tick. At haste softcap SWP gives a tick every 2.25sec, at 12%, that should result in an apparition every 18.75seconds...

    With that said, the idea that we might have full orbs every time all the time is false. Infact, this buff will only come into play once every 3rd MB based on this calculation. Multitarget fights change the game dramatically, if we have 3 targets, we could get it down to about 6 sec per apparition.

    How you got 1.5sec.... thats.... difficult to believe, unless you hit the lottery or RNG that fight, not likely.

    If you dotted all 3 dogs, and ran around the whole fight for the movement bonus, you could get it down to maybe 4sec? lol yeah, 1.5sec is not plausible whatsoever. If you have logs of this, I think you must be misreading them.

    Anyway, just thinking out loud here, getting less and less inspired by this set bonus as it goes. DPS buff for the shortest 25% of a boss fight, and a potential loss on the 4pc bonus from what we have now.
    Last edited by Constantino; 2011-09-25 at 05:52 AM.

  4. #64
    The big thing that I see is that our MB scales not only from number of orbs, but also off of our Int, and Mastery, and crit so efficiently. With the them all going to be rising in stat weights the amount they add to MB becomes just that much more drastic. Its most noticeable in a fight say like Heroic Domo versus normal where you are given a 100% bonus. It is reliant yes on a rng of which provided which number, but its still three values multiplied three times, versus one or two. The bigger the base number, the bigger a jump in damage you'll experience. It was most glaring to me in that with my 4pc MB crits on heroic domo fluctuated so much. 1 orb crit was around 80, 2 was 140k, but 3 jumped me up to 220k+. I'm not counting wings into this, those were numbers I saw just on average popping up and what was shown on recount and WoL's.

  5. #65
    I like the bonuses, a bit puzzled about masochism. Still the bonuses shouldn't be set bonuses, they should be permanent fixes to the class while allowing masochism work under these conditions. 3 orbs would be too much for a permanent solution, maybe make it 1 orb. Still, these seem like a lazy fix for our issues. I prefer straightforward damage increasing set bonuses such as tier 12.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Constantino View Post
    I do not know how you managed this....

    12% chance for each pain tick. At haste softcap SWP gives a tick every 2.25sec, at 12%, that should result in an apparition every 18.75seconds...

    With that said, the idea that we might have full orbs every time all the time is false. Infact, this buff will only come into play once every 3rd MB based on this calculation. Multitarget fights change the game dramatically, if we have 3 targets, we could get it down to about 6 sec per apparition.

    How you got 1.5sec.... thats.... difficult to believe, unless you hit the lottery or RNG that fight, not likely.

    If you dotted all 3 dogs, and ran around the whole fight for the movement bonus, you could get it down to maybe 4sec? lol yeah, 1.5sec is not plausible whatsoever. If you have logs of this, I think you must be misreading them.

    Anyway, just thinking out loud here, getting less and less inspired by this set bonus as it goes. DPS buff for the shortest 25% of a boss fight, and a potential loss on the 4pc bonus from what we have now.
    I was only single-DoTing Shannox the entire time, nothing on either of the dogs. It could be that my WoL parse is lying to me and combining every SPriest in the raid's SAs in to one creature, so between 3 of us we had 1.5 SAs every second. Even if that was the case and they were split evenly, you'd have an SA attack landing once every 2-3 seconds, which is still often enough to have a full 3 orbs when MB comes off CD.

  7. #67
    wow blizzard actually listened what you wrote in the forum, every1 were complaining about shadow orbs at the start of the fight, and there you go... I'm happy for you guys!

  8. #68
    I already have to use a cancel aura macro with my sw:d in order to get it to damage me for mana return. This bonus needs to change.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyashley View Post
    Mindblast cooldown: 4s.
    Uhhhhhhhhh... No. It's 6.5 seconds.

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  10. #70
    The Patient Leaftwig's Avatar
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    These bonuses look interesting. It's too early to say what impact the bonuses will have on our dps tho.
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  11. #71
    2p: This will actually be realy helpful while progressing on content even though the change to our over all dps won't be that high. New prio with Shadow word death before starting to fil with mind flay pre 25% anyone?

    4p: Worst I've seen in ages. SAs? That's just even more rng than it is now. SF? That's retarded, we will gain the bonus every 5th hit from our SF (1,5s hit speed and a 6,5s cd + 1s cast time) and that's just wasted.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by eErike View Post
    2p: This will actually be realy helpful while progressing on content even though the change to our over all dps won't be that high. New prio with Shadow word death before starting to fil with mind flay pre 25% anyone?

    4p: Worst I've seen in ages. SAs? That's just even more rng than it is now. SF? That's retarded, we will gain the bonus every 5th hit from our SF (1,5s hit speed and a 6,5s cd + 1s cast time) and that's just wasted.
    I don't get what you mean by SF? In the opening we use SF, it means we won't be praying the god of orbs for 30 seconds for an orb, instead we'll have it for the initial dotting-redotting according to what trinkets etc you have. If you are referring to the MB bonus of orbs, I seriously couldn't care less. Most of the MB casts already benefits from multiple orbs. The initial benefit should be the main focus of this 4set.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by eErike View Post
    4p: Worst I've seen in ages. SAs? That's just even more rng than it is now. SF? That's retarded, we will gain the bonus every 5th hit from our SF (1,5s hit speed and a 6,5s cd + 1s cast time) and that's just wasted.
    I really wonder what this will do for secondary damage targets. DoT the boss up, use MB on cooldown on them, and Mind Spike an add to make use of the extra Shadow Orbs?

  14. #74
    I'm just wondering with this change will there be a incorporation of SW: Death into our non-execute rotation

  15. #75
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyashley View Post
    Shadowfiend lasts 15 seconds and has an attack speed of 1.5; 10 hits per usage. 10 hits = 30 orbs. Mindblast cooldown: 4s. Mindblasts in 15s: 3, assuming good playstyle and timing. Orbs thusly used by mindblast: 9. Wasted orbs: 21, excluding all other orb procs during the shadowfiend duration.

    Assuming each hit generated one orb instead: 10 hits = 10 orbs. thus you'll get 2 full orb minblasts and one 2-orb minblast, excluding all other orb procs during the shadowfiend duration. 0 wasted orbs.
    Your math is way off, Mind Blast is a 6.5 second cooldown (initially 8 second cooldown with 1.5 second reduction from talents) - the number of orbs wasted is therefore way higher, and true even if Fiend only returned 1 orb per hit - but that's not the right direction here to go anyways - the problem isn't that we need Less orbs - it's that while people keep going "ZOMG MOAR ORBZ AMAZING!1" 90% of them are going to be wasted as it stands, reducing the number of orbs this 4-piece procs would if anything make it worse - while the problem is that it's already actually pretty bad - and needs to be improved: not nerfed.

  16. #76
    I seriously urge people who are thinking of the wasted orbs we are going to have to think about the thing that really matters. With 4pc, we will have DIRECT CONTROL over orbs we generate via cooldown, SF. This is what we have been asking for the entire expansion. Apparition part of the 4pc can be restated like this: Chance to spawn orbs are increased.

    Still, I believe orb generation should be fixed. It shouldn't be a part of a tier set bonus. Tier set bonuses should be exciting and damage boosting. While these bonuses boost damage in a way, that trait of them is secondary. The primary things achieved through the bonuses are purely quality of life and class mechanics improvement - which in my opinion shouldn't be through tier sets.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaise View Post
    I don't get what you mean by SF? In the opening we use SF, it means we won't be praying the god of orbs for 30 seconds for an orb, instead we'll have it for the initial dotting-redotting according to what trinkets etc you have. If you are referring to the MB bonus of orbs, I seriously couldn't care less. Most of the MB casts already benefits from multiple orbs. The initial benefit should be the main focus of this 4set.
    Fixing our opener that is 0.05%(?) of our total dps isn't realy my hopes out of a 4p

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by eErike View Post
    Fixing our opener that is 0.05%(?) of our total dps isn't realy my hopes out of a 4p
    the times I started rag heroic with no orbs until after the trap i have to take, and the times I went into p3 heroism with NO orbs and just praying are countless. You have to see this is a huge difference in that matter.

    Still, as I stated above, I do NOT believe these fixes should be through tier set bonuses, and are terrible damage boosters for direct usage of the spells. - We agree on that part.
    Last edited by Jervaise; 2011-09-25 at 08:20 AM.

  19. #79
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eErike View Post
    Fixing our opener that is 0.05%(?) of our total dps isn't realy my hopes out of a 4p
    ^ This. Yes, bad RNG on the opener can suck - and it can take up to a minute or two before your average dps normalizes on recount from a bad opener, but an opener that provides people who are tunnel visioning their recount some peace of mind is Not a good set bonus - a good set bonus has a measurable effect on dps or provides us some minor new utility (increased movement, more mana, etc) that indirectly benefits our dps. It's a very weak bonus - especcially compared to Tier 12 4-piece, or the Tier 12 2-piece we will need to break to gain this.
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  20. #80
    Hmm... with 2p masochism will be totally useless unless they change it.

    Overall... I think I like these bonuses.

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