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  1. #41
    Thorough and clearly presented. Posts like this make me wish we could +rep.
    Im glad you enjoyed it, thank you for the positive feedback =)

  2. #42
    Legendary! Blueobelisk's Avatar
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    Okay I appreciate your comments Eld and Stant but you're gonna have to give me time to digest that because my mind turned into Bio/Chem memorization, I forgot math for a bit lol...

  3. #43
    for Eldacar on your stamina = hp scale,
    I believe the reason your geting 13.9 per point of stamina is that the "base" or White stamina stil gives the 1 stamina = 10 hp scale and it's only the "green" stamina that gives the 1=14 ratio, this also explains why your equasion breaks under 500 stamina as it gains a larger proportion of the 10 hp stamina.

    ofc thats what my belief about how stamina is and may be off about the white stamina but thats what i thought happened which is why your stamina from gear effectively doubles your health.

    also your equation will not work for all races exactly due to the races having a different amount of the "white" stamina only a 1-5 differance i believe but after buffs and scaling will effect low stamina people more and throw of your equasion another few hp

  4. #44
    As far as I know, EH is supposed to be linear with resilience, which is the whole point of the 4.1 change, so it seems this is wrong.

  5. #45
    As far as I know, EH is supposed to be linear with resilience, which is the whole point of the 4.1 change, so it seems this is wrong.
    That may be what it is SUPPOSED to be, but that's not what it actually is. This is based on hard facts and data from the actual game, I know what Blizzard said with the 4.1 patch and that may have been how it worked back then, but it's just not how it works now.

    If you don't believe me perform your own tests and see what you get, see how it matches up to my data. If you find an error I am happy to make corrections, but I was very meticulous in making this guide and I think you will find it is extremely accurate.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-01 at 04:40 AM ----------

    for Eldacar on your stamina = hp scale,
    I believe the reason your geting 13.9 per point of stamina is that the "base" or White stamina stil gives the 1 stamina = 10 hp scale and it's only the "green" stamina that gives the 1=14 ratio, this also explains why your equasion breaks under 500 stamina as it gains a larger proportion of the 10 hp stamina.
    That may be the case, or it may be that it breaks because my lowest data point was around 500, so below that it didn't have anything to base the equation on. I will test your theory next time I get a chance, I would love it if it's right because it would make my life a bit easier. I remember testing my equation though numerous times at it produced accurate results down to the exact HP, so it would be odd if it's wrong. It's not fresh in my mind atm so it's hard for me to theorize.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueobelisk View Post
    Yeah that shit isn't true. 2 PVP Ruthless rings, both 160 resil each test.

    0 resil to 160 resil -> 0.00% to 2.01% damage reduction = +2.01%
    160 resil to 320 resil -> 2.01% to 3.98% damage reduction = +1.97%

    Threw on some more gear and did the ring test again.

    2669 resil to 2829 resil -> 28.75% to 30.19% = 1.44% damage reduction
    2829 resil to 2989 resil -> 30.19% to 31.59% = 1.40% damage reduction

    Meh. Will have to do something of my own and compare it to yours at some other time. Is it linear? I'd have to do more numbers because it seems to be going down by .04% for each 160 resil you add. Is that "0 to 10 gives you the same as 30 to 40 resil" thing right? Meh I guess that's what diminishing return means.
    The problem is that you're looking not at it in terms of damage taken. Every 1% of damage reduction is more reduction than the previous 1%.

    If you go from 100% damage taken to 99%, you're taking 1% less damage (99 is 99% of 100).
    If you go from 50% damage taken to 49%, you're taking 2% less damage (49 is 98% of 50).

    Under the old model, 100 to 99 and 50 to 49 took the same amount of Resilience, but 50 to 49 was twice as effective. That's called increasing returns.
    Under the new model, 50 to 49 takes twice as much Resilience, because it's twice as effective. That's linear returns.

    0 resil to 160 resil -> 100.00% to 97.99% damage taken = 100/97.99 = +2.05% increase in survival.
    160 resil to 320 resil -> 97.99% to 96.02% damage taken = 97.99/96.02 = +2.05% increase in survival.

    2669 resil to 2829 resil -> 71.25% to 69.81% damage taken = 71.25/69.81 = +2.06% increase in survival.
    2829 resil to 2989 resil -> 69.81% to 68.41% damage taken = 69.81/68.41 = +2.04% increase in survival.

    There's a little rounding up and down but 160 resilience is pretty much constant all the way up. I'll even check right now with my own S10 rings.

    4345 resil to 4505 resil -> 57.59% to 56.43% damage taken = 57.59/56.43 = +2.05% increase in survival.
    4505 resil to 4665 resil -> 56.43% to 55.29% damage taken = 56.43/55.29 = +2.06% increase in survival.

    Constant.

  7. #47
    Baphomette, you have an interesting way of looking at it and I find your results fascinating, but the reason why your gains are remaining constant is you are changing your frame of reference with each comparison rather than comparing to a common baseline. Going from 0 to 160 and 4505 to 4665 may both provide about 2.05% gains in survivability but it is a 2.05% gain relative to the survivability at the previous value. At 4505 you have significantly more effective health than at 0, so in order to gain 2.05% survivability you need to gain significantly more effective health than you do at 0. So while your relative gains may remain fairly constant, your absolute gains have increasing returns as shown in my graphs in the original post.

    To illustrate what I am talking about take the base EH percentage of 100% which is what you have with 0 resil and increase it by 2.05%, then take the result and increase that by 2.05% over and over. It would go 100, 102.05, 104.142, 106.2769, 108.4556, etc etc. When you do that, and count each repetition of the process as an increase of 160 resilience, you end up with a graph that looks like this:



    Now that curve probably looks very familiar if you looked at my graphs, because it is roughly the same curve you see for EH% in my graphs as you can see in this overlay of the two data sets:



    I hope this clears up your understanding of whats going on here mathematically, but if you have any further questions I would be happy to answer them to the best of my ability.
    Last edited by Eldacar; 2011-11-01 at 10:48 AM.

  8. #48
    This will all change next xpac when res is added as a baseline stat and all stats will normalized. Awesome post BTW
    Last edited by Skandulous; 2011-11-01 at 12:46 PM.

  9. #49
    This will all change next xpac when res is added as a baseline stat and all stats will normalized. Awesome post BTW
    TY, and it would change regardless as ratings scale differently at different levels, just going to lvl 90 will alter how it scales. Anyways as soon as I am able to get data for 5.0 I will update all of this. Anytime resil changes you can count on an update here as soon as its possible for me to do it.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldacar View Post
    I hope this clears up your understanding of whats going on here mathematically,
    I do understand, I wouldn't be at 4.6k if I wasn't well aware of how good it is heh just trying to explain to the fellow who thought the smaller increases per 160 resilience somehow meant it was becoming less effective.

  11. #51
    Do you think you could make a graph which would compare effective health of resilience and effective health of stamina? Perhaps also add in healing, as that would be important as well?

  12. #52
    were you able to test my theory about white and green stamina 10/14hp differances?

  13. #53
    were you able to test my theory about white and green stamina 10/14hp differances?
    Yes I performed a quick test and it does seem your theory is correct, "green" stamina add's 14hp per point. Thank god too, that 5th degree logarithm was way too complicated lol, surprisingly thought the equation does produce extremely accurate results for predicting total health, like you can plug in the total stamina of a character and it gives you an almost dead-on number for total health. Anyways, this makes things a bit simpler explanation wise but really doesnt change anything number wise. Because of the way I performed my initial calculations for the resil vs stam guide they are still valid and unaffected, and my recommendation is still to go with Resil =)

    Great catch Viglante =) I am glad I shared some of my preliminary finding here before finishing the guide, it's always good to have extra eyes on things!

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldacar View Post
    Yes I performed a quick test and it does seem your theory is correct, "green" stamina add's 14hp per point. Thank god too, that 5th degree logarithm was way too complicated lol, surprisingly thought the equation does produce extremely accurate results for predicting total health, like you can plug in the total stamina of a character and it gives you an almost dead-on number for total health. Anyways, this makes things a bit simpler explanation wise but really doesnt change anything number wise. Because of the way I performed my initial calculations for the resil vs stam guide they are still valid and unaffected, and my recommendation is still to go with Resil =)

    Great catch Viglante =) I am glad I shared some of my preliminary finding here before finishing the guide, it's always good to have extra eyes on things!
    /cheer less brain melting all round. (and more chance more people will be able to understand the formula you use with this "base" hp section i assume a simple (total stam - base stam x 14)+(base stam x10) * [resi co-efficients] equasion instead of wht you had before with the many digits

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodejjj View Post
    4132 resil still doesn't stop frost mages and T2 idiots from blowing me up.
    Seriously...had one do about 84k damage in 3~ seconds vs 3,987 res. Outplayed I guess.

  16. #56
    any news on the stam vs resi guide?

  17. #57
    any news on the stam vs resi guide?
    Sorry, right now RL is eating up all my time. Quite frankly this stuff is very low on my priority list, it's something I enjoy but RL has to come first, so I just work on it when I can.

    Here is the main graph of the guide for you to chew on while you wait, I don't have time to really put it in context or explain it properly right now, as that's what the guide is for, so hopefully you will be able to gain some insight from it on your own in the mean time. I have not decided on 3D vs Contour yet for the final guide, let me know which one you like better.





    I wish I could give you an ETA on when the guide will be done but as I said, I just work on it when I can =/

  18. #58
    I propose you test a "gemming color code". For each point on the surface (Stam, Resi, EH), color depend of the ratio r=EH(Stam+30,Resi)/EH(Stam, Resi+20), blue tones if r>1, yellow tones if r<1.

  19. #59
    looking good on the EH workings,
    i prefer the 2D one as it shows that while the horivontal colour changes stay relitavly the same width the vertical colour changes change with rating.

  20. #60
    Good news, the stamina vs resil guide is done! Took me another 20 hrs of work to finish it but the monster is finally slain lol. I ended up going with a contour map based on craaaazy long equation to determine which was best to gem at each of 3600 test points. As much work as is was to make the graphs though I still think resilience is pretty much always the best way to go, so they are not terribly useful rofl. I will be posting it up here on the forums soon!
    @EldacarJS - Warcraft PVP Enthusiast, Theorycrafter, and Blizzard PVP Forum MVP

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