View Poll Results: Is the gear grind necessary in PVP?

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  • Yes

    47 52.81%
  • No

    42 47.19%
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  1. #1
    Dreadlord Magewang's Avatar
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    Is the gear grind in PvP necessary?

    Had an extended debate about this on Teamspeak, just want some additional opinions on the subject. I won't clarify my position as it tends to bias the debate on these forums.

  2. #2
    Warchief mrgummage's Avatar
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    Character progression is an integral part of RPG games, getting gear is the main way of doing this. Therefore the progression of gear in PvP (ergo: the grind) is required.

  3. #3
    Field Marshal borgarr's Avatar
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    Yes but no imo there needs to be some kind of gear grind be it xmog or what ever but in my honest opionion i believe PvP gear should not contain stats and that everyone should be given a PvP set once they enter arena /Bgs so every one has equal gear and then its more based on skill rather than "lolol hes green geared im 600Ilvl lets crush him" it would also solve the imbalance of bgs since if you have a team of newly dinged 90s you won't beat a full pridefull team espcially in flag carrier games they should just replace PvP honour/conq points gear with Xmog and make them really nice and throw in some pets and toys and maybe a mount or two to keep peoples incentive high

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgummage View Post
    Character progression is an integral part of RPG games, getting gear is the main way of doing this. Therefore the progression of gear in PvP (ergo: the grind) is required.
    Character progression for PvP is rankings. The only reason there is a gear grind is so that the less skilled have something to work toward, thus keeping them subbed longer, that they believe will suddenly help them in progression(Rankings).

  5. #5
    Brewmaster Wass's Avatar
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    I do think gear progression is fine tbh. It gives more incentive to play during the season at the very least. Not just mash it the last few weeks.

    But ofc, in the end arena rating is a measurement of your progression.
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  6. #6
    A lot of people, myself included, has their motivation to play this game drop considerably when the there is no more PVP gear upgrades to buy.

    The grind is just a mechanism to keep people subscribed, nothing more, nothing less.

  7. #7
    My first MMO was Guild Wars, so I'm inclined to say no. I used to play for fun, at some point it became playing for gear more than fun.
    One cannot simply quit wow his way into Mordor.

  8. #8
    Herald of the Titans DiscoGhost's Avatar
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    gear progression is ok. grinding is ok. i think its the amount of grind and waiting that should be discussed. i dont want to spend a month of bgs to get fully geared up. thats too long. on diablo 3, going from cap to getting a decent amount of gear takes about a week. thats more preferable to me.
    You can tune a piano, but you can't tuna fish.

  9. #9
    I'm fine with the grind but the gap between good PvP gear and someone just entering the PvP scne in the middle of a season should be much smaller. No one likes to lose over and over again before they can start having fun. In PvE this issue is completely non-existant yet it has a grind aswell. Why the discrepancy?

  10. #10
    Legendary! Thelxi's Avatar
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    Ougearing people in PvP is a core feature of WoW PvP, always has been. Modern games try to focus more on skill not gear, but WoW is WoW.

  11. #11
    98 from 100 my friend list doing arena only for cap.

    Killing gear grind gonna kill majority of arena participant ( my opinion only not fact ), and making longer arena que.

    Beside it's an easy 200g/win, another way to make gold.

    so yes, it's necesary

  12. #12
    Gear should not be a factor in pvp. Everyone should be under equal footing in pvp. The notion that "Ones with best gear should destroy others because it is RPG" is archaic notion and most games are moving away from it (to cosmetic / vanity reward) and wow should do it too.

    Things like starcraft or lol have zero stuff that lets you outgear your opponent, yet it is massively popular. People will not suddenly magically stop playing if there is no gear attached to it. In fact if people can jump into pvp without any restrictions it could pump up participation more.
    Last edited by PrairieChicken; 2014-10-12 at 02:55 AM.

  13. #13
    Dreadlord Magewang's Avatar
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    Nice to see opinion so divided on this subject. I'm pretty sure its something Blizzard will have to address in the future. Personally I don't mind it for my main its when I level ALTs that the gear disparity becomes unpleasant. I think prestige is a bigger driving force than gear for motivating people to pvp. Mostly because if people want gear LFR provides that with minimal effort.

  14. #14
    Bloodsail Admiral Thundertom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrairieChicken View Post
    Gear should not be a factor in pvp. Everyone should be under equal footing in pvp. The notion that "Ones with best gear should destroy others because it is RPG" is archaic notion and most games are moving away from it (to cosmetic / vanity reward) and wow should do it too.
    I would like to feel a bit more powerful when I've put in some work into my PVP gear, I personally do not pay attention to who I'm facing in Arena's, so I would feel pretty bummed out when rewards would be purely cosmetic.

    However, as it currently stands, I don't like it. I would, for instance, like my friends to try out PVP as well, but it's just not fun when you have 0 gear. You get obliterated. Once you get Grievous it's a bit better, but the real fun starts only when you get at least 50% Prideful. It's too unforgiving to get into, and once you hit the sweet spot you've already become so bitter that you pity anyone that's lower than you.

  15. #15
    Brewmaster Wass's Avatar
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    You could make it so that the 27k conquest points achievement per season would have to be unlocked on one character only for the entire account to be able to purchase CP gear with honor.

    Gearing should be a part of pvp, it provides some variation in the builds players choose. Even at the top of the arena bracket people run different sets of gear that they equip depending on what comp they face in the arena.

    But as it is right now the gearing is beyond retarded. Camping 150 wins at low rating in 2v2 just to be able to play for real is bad game design. But this is just an effect of the season being too long.
    All I would ever want and need is a hug.

  16. #16
    Mechagnome Zippoflames's Avatar
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    I think players should have an arena tab on the char that when you hit 90 is the current set, you can gem it and enchant it but it only works in arena.. In bgs its wear what you like with honor letting you buy a bg set of pvp gear.

    I think arena is too small (3v3) to warrant having to grind gear before you can play properly

  17. #17
    Yes, but the current grind is flawed... and can't say I've looked too much into PvP in WOD.

    The current PvP system is a breeding ground for bots. It's all about honor per hour, if you lose you get almost nothing, people get sick of it/bored so they bot for honor gear, then spam trade looking for a 2's carry for cap... then after they're 550 geared (current example), the start to play seriously for Elite gear. Or, they simply use PVP gear as a means to inflate their ilvl for PvE.

    What's worse, is the whole "Random BG" system, where players who want honor or conq, are forced into BG's they don't even enjoy or want to play because queing for specific is next to pointless.

    There has to be a better way, I just don't know what it is... but I gather WOD has addressed some of the above.

  18. #18
    Herald of the Titans Matt0193's Avatar
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    I wish gear was no longer a factor for PvP but it'll stay sadly.
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgummage View Post
    Character progression is an integral part of RPG games, getting gear is the main way of doing this. Therefore the progression of gear in PvP (ergo: the grind) is required.
    This.

    Also, it feels good to feel your char getting gradually more powerful + it's fun to slaughter undergeared people in random BGs.

  20. #20
    I believe PVP should be about skill instead of gear. It would make for a more meaningful play experience if everyone had normalized stats and gear didn't matter in PvP.

    However, the same is true for PvE. Your accomplishments mean more if your gear is normalized and you can't just overgear content and so on. It's one reason I really liked Challenge Modes and with the additional tweaks in WoD where socket inflation won't be a "thing", it'll help things out even more with challenge modes being, in my opinion, some of the best content available in the game.

    However, when you take away the gear and leave everything to skill, what reason do you have to play? You might form a raid team and go clear SoO, but why would you clear it a second time after you did it the first? You have already proven you have what it takes to win. Raiding is fun to an extent, people might clear multiple times just for the lulz, but history has shown without some reward for doing something, people won't do it more than once.

    I know countless people that won't raid normal mode, like at all, after they're fully heroic geared. They won't do it for fun and it's hard to get most people to even go help out a friend, when they don't get anything out of it directly. They always wanna bring shitty alts when you ask them to go do normal mode. Why? To gear them.

    WOW's whole design philosophy and core concept is constantly doing shit for gear. It's why they hide all the gear beyond multiple layers of RNG, layers of RNG they are increasing further by adding the new bonus stats you can sometimes roll up.

    People are also infected with the whole "im better than you" problem. People wanna get the best gear so they can go meander with people with less gear and crush them. It's no different than heroic raiders queueing for LFR or doing flexes just to laugh at everyone else's dps and its true for PVP as well when you have the best gear possible for pvp and going up against people without any PVP gear. That disparity has to exist so people can feel good about themselves for collecting their gear. It's the whole reason twinking was insanely popular back when it was still possible to twink properly. People liked to outgear their enemy and win. Fairness is not a concern, it is justified by saying "you have the same opportunity to get the same gear" but in reality it just translates to "i enjoy killing people less geared than I am".

    That is the bulk of the community, both PVP and PVE. They have a NEED to look better than other people, whether they even realize it on the conscious level or not.

    PVP is already just a mini-game in WOW. Working toward getting that PVP gear is what keeps people queueing for battlegrounds. Once you're in the best PVP gear possible you more or less stop doing random battlegrounds. You might queue up on occasion if you're bored or just want to go wreck tons of people that you KNOW aren't gonna be geared. But for the most part, you stop doing it because it doesn't benefit you anymore.

    Arena is the same way. Why do you do arena? For rating which ultimately equals rewards. After you get enough rating you think you're sure to get gladiator, you basically stop doing arenas too for fear of losing your rating. Even if you get an itch to go do arena for the lulz, you don't want to do it on your main PVP character and risk losing your rating, so you go do it on an alt instead. One that probably still needs gear and you're doing it more for conquest than anything else.

    It's just the shitty design WOW has used from day one. Everything you do must reward you. It has conditioned people that they must be rewarded for everything they do, and if they aren't rewarded they don't want to do it. It created the entire entitlement generation of MMO players.

    If you took away gear from PVP and made it so the gear didn't matter, overnight 90% of PVP participation would disappear. I mean think about it, when you queue up for something like a battleground or an arena, why are you doing it? Chances are, it's for honor or conquest points. The LONG TERM goal being to gear up and try to raise your rating in the arena. You might PVP for the lulz now and then, but you're only likely to do this AFTER you're geared for it.

    It's just how the game works.
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