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  1. #61
    High Overlord mpaskin1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [-Spiritus-] View Post
    This is all speculative, of course. As I said, you're going to do damage in GW2 regardless, but I think someone will be able to focus on support & control, do it very well, and still be a valuable member of a group. Also, don't forget, that a bunch of support and control abilities also do damage.

    Where I think Ynna and I differ is, while I love supporting & controlling, I also like doing damage, because making enemy healthbars go down is essential to any MMO experience, and a dead mob is the ultimate form of control. It's dead.
    hoho well said sir!
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  2. #62
    Herald of the Titans theredviola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mif View Post
    I would NEVER play a healer, but I'm legitimately excited at the idea of support.

    As a Rogue, I would always try to be a smart DPS. On Marrowgar when an idiot hunter standing way out by himself got bonespiked, I would always be the one to rocketboot out and blow all my cooldowns to save his stupid ass. Or when my healers pulled agro, I would be the one to dash in and try and evasion tank for them. Even if I died doing it, to me it was better than topping a meter (and I used to parse top 200 on WoL), because I felt my actions had contributed more to our victory.
    This x100. I've been doing this since I started raiding in BC. My old guild leader even benched me for not toping charts (was a ret pally in BC... plus he was a dumb ass). When I switched guilds at the beginning of Wrath, my guild leader always used me as an example of good raid awareness.

    But what you described, and what I'm sure a fair amount of raiders do, is exactly what we -should- be doing.
    "Do not only practice your art, but force yourself into its secrets, for it and knowledge can raise men to the divine." -- Ludwig Van Beethoven

  3. #63
    Well I kinda like the whole wack-a-mole healing style


    Like another guy in this thread said, I really enjoy just standing in the background doing my thing, coordinating with the other healers and making sure everyone is alive and well, usually without them knowing just how much work that was. I mean I'd assume most of the people who has played a healer seriously actually like the way healing works, so for the Guildwars devs to dismiss it as being boring just concerns me a bit.

    Ill probably choose whichever class is going to provide the most support to the group, simply because dpsing doesn't interest me all that much.
    He only employs his passion who can make no use of his reason.

  4. #64
    Scarab Lord Arkenaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowgale View Post
    Well I kinda like the whole wack-a-mole healing style


    Like another guy in this thread said, I really enjoy just standing in the background doing my thing, coordinating with the other healers and making sure everyone is alive and well, usually without them knowing just how much work that was. I mean I'd assume most of the people who has played a healer seriously actually like the way healing works, so for the Guildwars devs to dismiss it as being boring just concerns me a bit.

    Ill probably choose whichever class is going to provide the most support to the group, simply because dpsing doesn't interest me all that much.
    I play a healer seriously and have since BC. In fact I have 4 healers and only 2 dps. The system is flawed and any illusion of fun has simply been ingrained in us by blizzard. There is literally no comparison available right now.

  5. #65
    Herald of the Titans Snow White's Avatar
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    I don't know how anyone can think healing in WoW is fun. And if you think you're going to be able to sit back and support in GW2, you are sorely mistaken. You will have to be fighting and dodging and dpsing and CCing - keeping yourself alive. Sure you can support your eammates with aoe effects, but there are no direct heals. You cannot target friendly players. You are responsible for yourself first in GW2.

    Now that I think about it, nothing in wow is fun. Tanking is an easy simple standing agaisnt a wall or simply taunting when you have a certain amount of stacks. Dpsing is hitting 11111111211111123 and healing is whack-a-mole. I cannot wait for wowers to pick up guild wars and have their eyes blasted open with how fun a game can actually be. I'm really excited about the lack of holy trinity.

    My only concern is for people wanting to only support and complaining about having to contribute to a fight in any other way. If you want to play whack a mole, by all means PLEASE stay and play wow. I'm really worried about the players who will insist on certain classes doing certain things during a fight. I really really hope supports have LONG cool-downs and harsh energy penalties so the whole group is forced to work together. I do not want one person being able to support the other 4. That is not what I signed up for.

  6. #66
    I presume Support is going to be, For example; An Elementalist who attacks in Water Attunement, healing his allies nearby, freezing down and kiting mobs or perhaps creating a lightning shield or Flame wall to buff a friendly Rangers Arrows. The ranger could then see said Elementalist low on Health after some kiting gone wrong and send a Barrage of arrows at them, crippling and hindering the mob long enough for the Necromancer to consume his poison and bleeding conditions, healing himself. Our hero the Guardian would then rush back, create a bubble, trapping the mob inside while the Thief finishes mopping up the over group of enemies with Death blossom.

    That, is Guild Wars 2 Support for me.

  7. #67
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkenaw View Post
    I play a healer seriously and have since BC. In fact I have 4 healers and only 2 dps. The system is flawed and any illusion of fun has simply been ingrained in us by blizzard. There is literally no comparison available right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitewolfbeauty View Post
    I don't know how anyone can think healing in WoW is fun. And if you think you're going to be able to sit back and support in GW2, you are sorely mistaken. You will have to be fighting and dodging and dpsing and CCing - keeping yourself alive. Sure you can support your teammates with aoe effects, but there are no direct heals. You cannot target friendly players. You are responsible for yourself first in GW2.

    My only concern is for people wanting to only support and complaining about having to contribute to a fight in any other way. If you want to play whack a mole, by all means PLEASE stay and play wow. I'm really worried about the players who will insist on certain classes doing certain things during a fight. I really really hope supports have LONG cool-downs and harsh energy penalties so the whole group is forced to work together. I do not want one person being able to support the other 4. That is not what I signed up for.
    To both of you: I can decide what I do and do not find fun on my own, thank you very much.
    If Blizzard has ingrained an illusion of fun about healing, how do you explain that I found healing fun from the first time I tried it? And I don't find every healing class equally fun, so it's not just the filling of the healthbars that floats my boat. As I've said previously in this thread I get the most enjoyment out of multiplayer games when can enable other people to do their thing and help other people securing victory. I played a Cleric in Dungeons & Dragons and I'd stayed safely out of the frontlines, making sure my allies survived the incoming damage and occasionally sending a lance of radiant light towards a foe,that also healed an ally.
    When playing Team Fortress 2 I am a Medic, standing slightly behind the frontline, keeping my allies alive and strategically using my Ubercharge/Kritzkrieg to advance my team or stop the other team in their tracks.
    In Minecraft I make sure to have plenty of food available so no-one on my server will get hungry and run around with little health.

    It seems that is too hard to explain to people who do not think like this, but I truly favor Supporting my team above anything else. I'm not wanting to lazily stand in the back just healing. I want to help my team, cover their backs, avoid enemy damage, make sure my team is victorious by buffing and shielding my allies and hindering my enemies with stuns, slows and freezes. I want my presence increase the overall efficiency of the team. What I do not want is swinging weapons into enemies. I don't enjoy dealing damage myself, and for this I truly hope that a strong focus on support is a viable build.
    Retired Holy Priest
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  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Ynna View Post
    To both of you: I can decide what I do and do not find fun on my own, thank you very much.
    If Blizzard has ingrained an illusion of fun about healing, how do you explain that I found healing fun from the first time I tried it? And I don't find every healing class equally fun, so it's not just the filling of the healthbars that floats my boat. As I've said previously in this thread I get the most enjoyment out of multiplayer games when can enable other people to do their thing and help other people securing victory. I played a Cleric in Dungeons & Dragons and I'd stayed safely out of the frontlines, making sure my allies survived the incoming damage and occasionally sending a lance of radiant light towards a foe,that also healed an ally.
    When playing Team Fortress 2 I am a Medic, standing slightly behind the frontline, keeping my allies alive and strategically using my Ubercharge/Kritzkrieg to advance my team or stop the other team in their tracks.
    In Minecraft I make sure to have plenty of food available so no-one on my server will get hungry and run around with little health.

    It seems that is too hard to explain to people who do not think like this, but I truly favor Supporting my team above anything else. I'm not wanting to lazily stand in the back just healing. I want to help my team, cover their backs, avoid enemy damage, make sure my team is victorious by buffing and shielding my allies and hindering my enemies with stuns, slows and freezes. I want my presence increase the overall efficiency of the team. What I do not want is swinging weapons into enemies. I don't enjoy dealing damage myself, and for this I truly hope that a strong focus on support is a viable build.
    I highly doubt GW2 is going to be your cup of tea then. No profession can be sitting back and just putting down buffs on the floor and warding circles so their team does better. You are part of the team, your damage is equally important to reach the set goal. Just sitting back and using support skills will actually CRIPPLE your group more than help them. Everyone is damaging, controlling, and supporting. Some professions just have 1 extra support or control skill.

  9. #69
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJekyll View Post
    I highly doubt GW2 is going to be your cup of tea then. No profession can be sitting back and just putting down buffs on the floor and warding circles so their team does better. You are part of the team, your damage is equally important to reach the set goal. Just sitting back and using support skills will actually CRIPPLE your group more than help them. Everyone is damaging, controlling, and supporting. Some professions just have 1 extra support or control skill.
    Well, going over the skills for the Guardian it seems that you can take a pretty support heavy build, similar to a melee based D&D cleric, which should be something I enjoy.
    My reply wasn't really: "I want Guild Wars 2 to give me the opportunity to stand back and support", but more a reply to the persons above me who didn't seem to understand the strong preference for support, especially healing in WoW. The Guild Wars developers said that healers would enjoy a support based Guardian and from what I've seen this seems true, since most offensive attacks have some kind of supportive bonus, which is an interesting way of baking support into a more damage dealing-based paradigm.
    Retired Holy Priest
    As a rule, I try to act on the internet as I would in real life. If I have offended you, feel free to point it out. Unless I meant to offend you, I will probably apologize.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowgale View Post
    Well I kinda like the whole wack-a-mole healing style


    Like another guy in this thread said, I really enjoy just standing in the background doing my thing, coordinating with the other healers and making sure everyone is alive and well, usually without them knowing just how much work that was. I mean I'd assume most of the people who has played a healer seriously actually like the way healing works, so for the Guildwars devs to dismiss it as being boring just concerns me a bit.

    Ill probably choose whichever class is going to provide the most support to the group, simply because dpsing doesn't interest me all that much.
    The thing is, healing isn't actively doing something, it's just reacting to this and that, which limits what you can do a lot. By focusing more on support/cc, you are able to actively prevent damage, and you actively contribute towards winning, instead of just standing there and tending to green bars.
    The way GW handles it is a much more enganging method, that takes "healing", and turns it from bar pushing to something that's actually active, and by that "fun". I can totally understand where they come from when they say that healing is boring.

  11. #71
    I think it will not be a problem to create let's say a guardian and "spec" him for support. This build might work for open world DEs or even for WvWvW, but I'm afraid it will gimp your party heavily in dungeons. You see GW2 is all about adaptation, that's why you have access to two sets of weapons/skills during combat. One moment you will be required to support your group with AoE protection, but a minute later there is a dps race and if you will not change to you higher dmg set of weapons (or for more AoE dmg), your group will fail.

  12. #72
    Honestly, considering there's stuff like dodging in the game, I'm willing to say that pretty much anything would be "viable".

  13. #73
    Herald of the Titans Snow White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jac_Arcanis View Post
    I presume Support is going to be, For example; An Elementalist who attacks in Water Attunement, healing his allies nearby, freezing down and kiting mobs or perhaps creating a lightning shield or Flame wall to buff a friendly Rangers Arrows. The ranger could then see said Elementalist low on Health after some kiting gone wrong and send a Barrage of arrows at them, crippling and hindering the mob long enough for the Necromancer to consume his poison and bleeding conditions, healing himself. Our hero the Guardian would then rush back, create a bubble, trapping the mob inside while the Thief finishes mopping up the over group of enemies with Death blossom.

    That, is Guild Wars 2 Support for me.
    Sounds a lot more fun then standing behind your group wiggling your your fingers.

    I hope anyone who is going to try and force support-only builds in GW2 just sticks to wow. I do not want them in my game ruining it. And they will ruin it if they insist on forcing roles like some posters seem to intend on doing. Like I said before, if you want to heal please stick to WoW or Rift, or any other game. Do not come in GW2 and try to change something that so many of us are looking forward to.

  14. #74
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitewolfbeauty View Post
    Sounds a lot more fun then standing behind your group wiggling your your fingers.

    I hope anyone who is going to try and force support-only builds in GW2 just sticks to wow. I do not want them in my game ruining it. And they will ruin it if they insist on forcing roles like some posters seem to intend on doing. Like I said before, if you want to heal please stick to WoW or Rift, or any other game. Do not come in GW2 and try to change something that so many of us are looking forward to.
    Hold on just a second. I do not want to force roles on anyone. That's one of the things that has me excited about Guild Wars 2, that everyone can play however they like. You want to be a melee Ranger, go for it. A Ranged Warrior, no problem. A supportive Elementalist, great, should work. A control-y Engineer, good, do it. But as soon as I say how I want to play my Guardian (a very heavy support build) that's going to ruin the game?
    Let's just take a look at the PvP build I'd like to take.
    1. Sword and Shield: Flashing Blade gives me great mobility, especially when traited and has the benefit of blinding enemies as well. The Shield gives me two abilities to protect my enemies from incoming damage. This weapon set should keep me in the front line, while protecting my allies and annoying my foes.
    2. Staff: Gives me a couple of ways to remove conditions from my allies and protect them. I can also trait Orb of Light to blind enemies as well, which makes my allies stay alive longer as well. Line of Warding can be used to protect my allies and locations, but can also double as a way of controlling enemies.

    Other skills: My healing slot will be taken by Healing Breeze, since that also heals those around me. Next is Smite Conditions, which combos nicely with the Martyr on the staff. Wall of Deflection give me a way to protect bases and high grounds and gives my ranged allies something to hide behind. Stand your ground protect and heals my allies, giving them more time to deal damage themselves. Lastly: Sanctuary, which gives me and others time to heal and resurrect and can block key locations in a pinch.

    As you can see I plan to give up quite some offensive power, but I do gain a lot of defense, support and control. I don't plan on just running around never hitting stuff, I know it's not that kind of game, but by choosing to go very supportive or defensive, I give my friends the opportunity to pick up more damaging abilities. In PvE I might even go more defensive, by swapping the sword with a mace. Most people prefer offense, so I can give them the opportunity to deal more damage by focusing more on defense and support so they don't have to. And since you can change builds more or less on the fly I can easily swap out my shield for a torch or something in case my group has more than enough support.
    Retired Holy Priest
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  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Ynna View Post
    Hold on just a second. I do not want to force roles on anyone. That's one of the things that has me excited about Guild Wars 2, that everyone can play however they like. You want to be a melee Ranger, go for it. A Ranged Warrior, no problem. A supportive Elementalist, great, should work. A control-y Engineer, good, do it. But as soon as I say how I want to play my Guardian (a very heavy support build) that's going to ruin the game?
    Let's just take a look at the PvP build I'd like to take.
    1. Sword and Shield: Flashing Blade gives me great mobility, especially when traited and has the benefit of blinding enemies as well. The Shield gives me two abilities to protect my enemies from incoming damage. This weapon set should keep me in the front line, while protecting my allies and annoying my foes.
    2. Staff: Gives me a couple of ways to remove conditions from my allies and protect them. I can also trait Orb of Light to blind enemies as well, which makes my allies stay alive longer as well. Line of Warding can be used to protect my allies and locations, but can also double as a way of controlling enemies.

    Other skills: My healing slot will be taken by Healing Breeze, since that also heals those around me. Next is Smite Conditions, which combos nicely with the Martyr on the staff. Wall of Deflection give me a way to protect bases and high grounds and gives my ranged allies something to hide behind. Stand your ground protect and heals my allies, giving them more time to deal damage themselves. Lastly: Sanctuary, which gives me and others time to heal and resurrect and can block key locations in a pinch.

    As you can see I plan to give up quite some offensive power, but I do gain a lot of defense, support and control. I don't plan on just running around never hitting stuff, I know it's not that kind of game, but by choosing to go very supportive or defensive, I give my friends the opportunity to pick up more damaging abilities. In PvE I might even go more defensive, by swapping the sword with a mace. Most people prefer offense, so I can give them the opportunity to deal more damage by focusing more on defense and support so they don't have to. And since you can change builds more or less on the fly I can easily swap out my shield for a torch or something in case my group has more than enough support.
    I'm completely with you on this, but, have you considered that you might be on your own for a big chunk of the game? You can't rely on people killing stuff for you 'all the time'. Just wondering what kind of setup you are going to use for those situations.

  16. #76
    Immortal Maklor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ynna View Post
    Hold on just a second. I do not want to force roles on anyone. That's one of the things that has me excited about Guild Wars 2, that everyone can play however they like. You want to be a melee Ranger, go for it. A Ranged Warrior, no problem. A supportive Elementalist, great, should work. A control-y Engineer, good, do it. But as soon as I say how I want to play my Guardian (a very heavy support build) that's going to ruin the game?
    Let's just take a look at the PvP build I'd like to take.
    You are misunderstanding the concept completely.

    You do NOT get to chose a gameplay style that is static using the same skills all the time, you are supposed to do EVERYTHING, you are supposed to constantly change your skills depending on what is needed.

    You are basically just re-inventing the trinity which is NOT what is the intention of the developer.

    So no you cannot play "however you will", you will be a liability to the group if you don't do what is NEEDED, for the easier content it probably won't matter but in the harder stuff it won't work.

  17. #77
    Herald of the Titans Snow White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maklor View Post
    You are misunderstanding the concept completely.

    You do NOT get to chose a gameplay style that is static using the same skills all the time, you are supposed to do EVERYTHING, you are supposed to constantly change your skills depending on what is needed.

    You are basically just re-inventing the trinity which is NOT what is the intention of the developer.

    So no you cannot play "however you will", you will be a liability to the group if you don't do what is NEEDED, for the easier content it probably won't matter but in the harder stuff it won't work.
    He clearly doesn't understand the lack of holy trinity so I'm giving up on trying to explain to him why he wont be supporting like he seems to think he will be. I'm afraid I'll end up saying something rude out of frustration.

    I'm concerned with people trying to recreate roles and pigeonholing certain classes to certain specs. I know it will happen, and I really hope Arenanet is ready for it. After release, if we find that someone is able support 4 other people like a mock healer, I hope they jump in and fix it asap by putting some major cool downs on his abilities so he and his teammates are forced to trade off. I have faith in them though, I really don't think it will be possible for one guy to support while they others focus on dmg.

    I imagine a lot of people will have trouble with the idea of no tanks and no heals. It is a lot to get used to, and it's going to be interesting seeing who can adapt and who can't. Reading general chat for the first couple of days is going to be really entertaining while people get used to dodging as well and not being able to stand still and take hits.

    I suggest changing the name of this thread too, as it seems to reinforce the confusion.

    "Control' is NOT the new tank. there is no tanking.
    "Support' is not the new heal, there is no healing.
    Last edited by Snow White; 2011-10-02 at 02:55 PM.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Maklor View Post
    You are misunderstanding the concept completely.

    You do NOT get to chose a gameplay style that is static using the same skills all the time, you are supposed to do EVERYTHING, you are supposed to constantly change your skills depending on what is needed.

    You are basically just re-inventing the trinity which is NOT what is the intention of the developer.

    So no you cannot play "however you will", you will be a liability to the group if you don't do what is NEEDED, for the easier content it probably won't matter but in the harder stuff it won't work.
    He's not reinventing the trinity when he says he wants to play a support style hero. Look at it this way: He's using his skills for the benefit of his allies, but some of them also happen to have the (to him) secondary effect that they deal damage, while another player would want to primarily focus on damage, and the "secondary" benefits are, to him, not as important.

    Guess why you can allocate your stats like power and defense freely. If we were going by what you want, everyone would have to max out "power" because it deals the most damage.

    You are trying to force a singularity by focing all people to do the same, when the whole system Anet created was about "freedom".

  19. #79
    Immortal Maklor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyve View Post
    He's not reinventing the trinity when he says he wants to play a support style hero.
    Yes he is.

    Look at it this way: He's using his skills for the benefit of his allies, but some of them also happen to have the (to him) secondary effect that they deal damage, while another player would want to primarily focus on damage, and the "secondary" benefits are, to him, not as important.
    What benefits the group is that group members do what is NEEDED.

    You are trying to force a singularity by focing all people to do the same, when the whole system Anet created was about "freedom".
    Doing EVERYTHING isn't "doing the same".

  20. #80
    Perhaps it's time to take a step back and read the words of the developers:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Peters, GW2 Game Designer
    You could say instead of DPS/heal/tank, we have our own trinity of damage, support, and control, but we prefer to think of them as the variety of elements that create a diverse and dynamic combat system that gives each player a toolbox to work with to solve any encounter we might throw their way. If that sounds like the kind of combat you are interested in, Guild Wars 2 is going to be a great place for you and your friends to fight together for many years to come.

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