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  1. #81
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
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    Hmmm, either I'm not making myself clear enough, or people aren't understanding me properly. Maybe both.
    I'm not trying to reinstate the trinity. If I was I would be advocating that Warriors should focus on Control and Rangers on Damage. I'm not doing that.
    Let me try to make my point clear one last time. I don't care for damage. Damage is okay, as long as it is a side-effect from either control or support. The Guardian seems perfect for what I want to do. Everything I see and read about the Guardian is that he trades offensive power for group-wide benefits (except, of course, the Guardians that prefer to focus on Damage) and I'm just taking that to its logical extreme. It's not that I do not want to be able to do damage. Looking at the videos swords seem to be a decent damage dealing option, which is part of the reason I took it as my basic layout, to increase flexibility. The staff itself seems no slouch either in the damage department, and gives me an opportunity to fall back when needed and still be effective.
    You also didn't seem to read my last sentence, where I said I'd be more than willing to swap to more offensive options when the group needed it.

    @Maklor: You make it sound as if there is no room for individualization in a specific direction, either damage, control or support. Of course each player will have to push support, damage and control buttons, but there is room for specializing in one direction or another. You also have to look at general group composition and synergy.
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  2. #82
    Immortal Maklor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ynna View Post
    @Maklor: You make it sound as if there is no room for individualization in a specific direction, either damage, control or support. Of course each player will have to push support, damage and control buttons, but there is room for specializing in one direction or another. You also have to look at general group composition and synergy.
    Ofc, I'm just saying everyone should be doing whatever is needed, and not think of themselves as just filling some specific role.

    In some instances I do see people playing more specific roles and that would be the biggest events and WvWvW there someone standing in the back and doing only support and running around ressing would probably be something that would work really well.

    For the hard 5 man dungeons I'm pretty sure everyone will need to do everything, since we most likely will see bosses that are meant to be DPS races and bosses that do massive damage, in those cases everyone needs to do what is required by the encounter.
    Last edited by Maklor; 2011-10-02 at 06:02 PM.

  3. #83
    People need to stop thinking about GW2 "roles" in terms of other games, at least when it comes to the harder content. The 3 roles outlined (support, control, damage) are the tools available, not roles for a class/player to fill. Yes, you can be more support oriented, or more control oriented, but adapting between all 3 roles using all the tools available as the fight/situation demands is of more benefit.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Maklor View Post
    Ofc, I'm just saying everyone should be doing whatever is needed, and not think of themselves as just filling some specific role.

    In some instances I do see people playing more specific roles and that would be the biggest events and WvWvW there someone standing in the back and doing only support and running around ressing would probably be something that would work really well.

    For the hard 5 man dungeons I'm pretty sure everyone will need to do everything, since we most likely will see bosses that are meant to be DPS races and bosses that do massive damage, in those cases everyone needs to do what is required by the encounter.
    This, a hundred times this. If arenanet really wants to stick to their own concept, they have to make sure that everyone in a party needs to help out whenever its needed.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Ynna View Post
    I don't care for damage. Damage is okay, as long as it is a side-effect from either control or support. The Guardian seems perfect for what I want to do. Everything I see and read about the Guardian is that he trades offensive power for group-wide benefits (except, of course, the Guardians that prefer to focus on Damage) and I'm just taking that to its logical extreme.
    Thing is, it's other way around - you do damage and because you're Guardian support is "side effect" of your actions.

    No matter what class/spec you are playing, those should be your priorities:
    - don't get hit
    - kill stuff
    - support/control/apply conditions

  6. #86
    GW2 is shaping up to have a gameplay style that acctually forces you to think on the spot, and take respsonsability for your mistakes. I like the new system that they are running with. It gives me hope that perhaps we might not have a game full of scrubs.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Creepjack View Post
    Thing is, it's other way around - you do damage and because you're Guardian support is "side effect" of your actions.

    No matter what class/spec you are playing, those should be your priorities:
    - don't get hit
    - kill stuff
    - support/control/apply conditions
    Not really. It's up to the player to prioritize what they want. If a class has a lot of utility, then there shouldn't be any problem for him to focus on helping out people that need it, rather than deal damage. You will always deal some damage somehow.

    And whether damage is the primary or secondary effect entirely depends on who uses it and to what purpose...

  8. #88
    Immortal Maklor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyve View Post
    Not really. It's up to the player to prioritize what they want. If a class has a lot of utility, then there shouldn't be any problem for him to focus on helping out people that need it, rather than deal damage. You will always deal some damage somehow.

    And whether damage is the primary or secondary effect entirely depends on who uses it and to what purpose...
    NO NO NO.

    If you think like that you will be standing around not doing anything a lot of the time since you would rely on secondary skills to "support" and they will have cooldowns.

  9. #89
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maklor View Post
    NO NO NO.

    If you think like that you will be standing around not doing anything a lot of the time since you would rely on secondary skills to "support" and they will have cooldowns.
    You keep assuming that, but people have said time and again they have no interest in standing around doing nothing. And it's not just support skill that have cooldowns. Offensive moves have that as well. That's why each weapon has a spammable move, some of which can be traited to do support, no less.
    I just don't get it. Am I explaining something unclear? Because all I want is to play with a focus on support, something Arena-net themselves have said that players can do. They've said that the Guardian can be played very supportive. (It even says so right on the page of the Guardian.) The tools are available to focus on support. Why can't you just accept that there are people who prefer supportive skills, and will play a supportive role? No-one is saying they want to stand around doing nothing. They are saying that doing damage isn't their primary goal. And you know what? I think this will be possible in Guild Wars 2, just by going over what the developers say in interviews and by looking at what the skills do.
    Will purely support-players exist? I hope not, because they'll be dragging the group down. Will people look for specific classes or roles? I hope not, since that's exactly what they're trying to avoid. Will people focus on support and play well? Yes, this will happen and it will be a way to enjoy the game.
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  10. #90
    Herald of the Titans Snow White's Avatar
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    What I worry about is when it becomes expected to bring a support spec guardian to your dungeon. If more and more players focus on support then I worry the guardian class will get pigeonholed into that 'role' and be expected to fill it.

    I really worry about the community trying to turn GW2 into wow because they would rather do something familiar and then try and learn something new.

    If that starts to happen I'll be emailing Anet and asking what happened to 'no healers needed.'

  11. #91
    I am Murloc! Mif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitewolfbeauty View Post
    What I worry about is when it becomes expected to bring a support spec guardian to your dungeon. If more and more players focus on support then I worry the guardian class will get pigeonholed into that 'role' and be expected to fill it.

    I really worry about the community trying to turn GW2 into wow because they would rather do something familiar and then try and learn something new.

    If that starts to happen I'll be emailing Anet and asking what happened to 'no healers needed.'
    They won't let that happen, thanks to swift use of the nerfbat.

  12. #92
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitewolfbeauty View Post
    What I worry about is when it becomes expected to bring a support spec guardian to your dungeon. If more and more players focus on support then I worry the guardian class will get pigeonholed into that 'role' and be expected to fill it.

    I really worry about the community trying to turn GW2 into wow because they would rather do something familiar and then try and learn something new.

    If that starts to happen I'll be emailing Anet and asking what happened to 'no healers needed.'
    I'd really hate to see that happen, but by the looks of it it seems that support isn't able to carry a group like a healer could. There are no direct, targeted heals that can make up for people's mistake. There's also no option for a completely support-build and every class and weapon layout has support buttons. So people asking for dedicated support (as in: doing nothing but support) aren't playing their class as well as they could. Just ignore those and enjoy the game with people who do use all of their skills.
    Retired Holy Priest
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  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Maklor View Post
    NO NO NO.

    If you think like that you will be standing around not doing anything a lot of the time since you would rely on secondary skills to "support" and they will have cooldowns.
    NO NO NO, if you think like that, than you think people don't realize when they have time to DPS. I mean seriously, I even nuke bosses in WoW raids as a healer when I've got nothing else to do to keep me occupied...

  14. #94
    Ok.... if support abilities have CDs, and DPS abilities have CDs, and you have a spammable pew pew button for each weapon set... and someone selects the weapons sets that have a few more support-y type skills, and their super-mega CD is support and their heal slot is a group heal...

    ...and then they play those weapon sets and skills to their absolute fullest, never wasting an opportunity to do something, whether it's a support, control, or damage skill, then how are they not getting the concept of GW2? If that is "bad" play then it suggests that certain weapon combos and skills are "bad," which suggests that the design is flawed, not the player.

    A short read on the skill system from the devs:

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Flannum, GW2 Lead Designer
    Much like in Guild Wars, the skill bar in Guild Wars 2 is limited to a set number of skills. Like a collectible card game, we provide the player with a wide variety of choices and allow them to pick and choose skills to create a build that best suits their particular play style. For example, one Guild Wars 2 warrior might decide to build his character around gradual damage which causes his opponents to bleed out, while another may choose to knock his opponents down, controlling their movement with slow, large attacks. Both warriors can choose to equip the skills that matter most to them. It is also very important to us that our skill system be simple to use, leaving the screen as clean and unintimidating as possible. All of this combines to give us a skill bar and skill system that's a bit different than what you'd typically find in an MMO.

  15. #95
    Immortal Maklor's Avatar
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    I'm going to assume this is aimed at me since it mentions cooldowns.

    My point is as long as you don't think of yourself as playing a specific role and contribute I'm fine with it, I only have problems with people saying they only want to do one thing.

    And by cooldowns I meant skills 6-10 not weapon skills - my point was that if someone had the idea only to bring defensive skills as his non-weapon skills and didn't want to use 1-5 because they did damage then that guy would be standing around and not doing anything half the time.
    Last edited by Maklor; 2011-10-03 at 06:00 PM.

  16. #96
    Scarab Lord Arkenaw's Avatar
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    I hope it ends up being like monster hunter, where you CAN support but shouldn't focus on it exclusively. For example, there's a skill to let potions heal an area around you. Sure it's nice, but you don't see people entirely based around that running around drinking potions and not helping to fight the monster.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by [-Spiritus-] View Post
    Perhaps it's time to take a step back and read the words of the developers:
    The problem with that quotation is that people take it as "OH THERE'S STILL A TRINITY BUT IT HAS DIFFERENT NAMES!!11!1" and ignore the second half of the sentence where he explains how it has nothing to do with traditional roles. At all. Not even a little bit. There's no "switching roles" or "now I'm being support!" moment in a dungeon or even within a single fight. You're playing all of those roles, at once, which is why I really disapprove of this thread as well as the "control is tanking" one. All this is doing is perpetuating the idea that there is a trinity when there isn't one at all.

    You're not going to cast a fireball that also cripples/burns a mob and think "oh man, I'm DD'ing AND supportin' mah group!"

    You have utility skills to be used regularly in combat, supporting allies or debuffing enemies, but it should never, ever be compared to a "support role" as some kind of new trinity. If you want to be a Guardian who loads the entire right half of his bar with support skills, you still won't be herpaderping around the backline not actually dealing any damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    People need to stop thinking about GW2 "roles" in terms of other games, at least when it comes to the harder content. The 3 roles outlined (support, control, damage) are the tools available, not roles for a class/player to fill. Yes, you can be more support oriented, or more control oriented, but adapting between all 3 roles using all the tools available as the fight/situation demands is of more benefit.
    ^This explains it more simply than my roundabout rant.
    Last edited by Drakhar; 2011-10-03 at 08:15 PM.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Maklor View Post
    I'm going to assume this is aimed at me since it mentions cooldowns.

    My point is as long as you don't think of yourself as playing a specific role and contribute I'm fine with it, I only have problems with people saying they only want to do one thing.

    And by cooldowns I meant skills 6-10 not weapon skills - my point was that if someone had the idea only to bring defensive skills as his non-weapon skills and didn't want to use 1-5 because they did damage then that guy would be standing around and not doing anything half the time.
    You are starting to make less and less sense with every post you write...

  19. #99
    Immortal Maklor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyve View Post
    You are starting to make less and less sense with every post you write...
    Trust me it's just you that can't grasp it, but if you have anything constructive to post please do.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Maklor View Post
    And by cooldowns I meant skills 6-10 not weapon skills - my point was that if someone had the idea only to bring defensive skills as his non-weapon skills and didn't want to use 1-5 because they did damage then that guy would be standing around and not doing anything half the time.
    Yeah, we're on the same page.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drakhar View Post
    The problem with that quotation is that people take it as "OH THERE'S STILL A TRINITY BUT IT HAS DIFFERENT NAMES!!11!1" and ignore the second half of the sentence where he explains how it has nothing to do with traditional roles.
    If people can't take the time to read the OP, which is quite clear, then that is a reply error. The title is meant to grab attention and, generally, explain, in the developer's own words, how to move someone from the "trinity" mindset to the GW2 mindset. The title of the thread isn't the cause of someone not understanding what the developers are trying to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drakhar View Post
    You're not going to cast a fireball that also cripples/burns a mob and think "oh man, I'm DD'ing AND supportin' mah group!"
    Why not? If my Fireball does damage and debuffs, that's what I'm going to think when I cast it. Just like if mages were real, and I could really cast a fireball, and I not only knew it would kill the bad guys, but also cause them to burn horrifically in front of their buddies, which would distract the focus of their friends, I would be thinking of that when casting the FB. The same with an ice spell, "not only am I killing the bad guys, but I'm making the ground icy, which will make it harder for other bad guys to reach me."

    Quote Originally Posted by Drakhar View Post
    You have utility skills to be used regularly in combat, supporting allies or debuffing enemies, but it should never, ever be compared to a "support role" as some kind of new trinity. If you want to be a Guardian who loads the entire right half of his bar with support skills, you still won't be herpaderping around the backline not actually dealing any damage.
    I agree with this 100%. I think, however, there is a difference between a guardian that loads the rightside of his or her bar with support skills, but uses all of his or her ability potential, and thinks of his or her self as primarily, in an RP sense, "the guy or gal who helps his or her buddies out to win," and a guy who's like "I haz support stuff, but I no hit things."

    Just like the guy who loads his rightbar w/ damage stuff, but uses all his or her ability potential, and thinks of his or her self as primarily, in the RP sense, "the guy or gal who savagely rips apart his or her foes," is a lot different than the guy who's like "I haz deeps...LOL support, wutz dat."

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