End Game Progression... thoughts?

**Karteli** · 2011-09-28, 01:05 AM

Originally Posted by Gavan

@Karteli,

Opinion is opinion. I have mine, you have yours. Neither of us are happy with how Blizzard has handled end game though, obviously others aren't either.

You missed my quantum physics reference with the obervable being defined as fact... very disappointed....

Agreed opinions are opinion. Everyone has a different opinion on it, and we could argue it, then someone comes in with an entirely new spin!

On the physics quote, yep, I missed it. If you said raiders have a clear direction on their timely progress without a direction where they are going, while raiders with a clear direction of where they want to be have no idea how long it will take .. I'll get that one

**Thornstar** · 2011-09-28, 01:16 AM

Originally Posted by Istaril

Normal mode gives goody bags, and is designed for pugging. Hard mode is designed for organised groups, and doesn't have the goody bag system. Along with the fact that better items are dropped. Keep this in bloody mind however, SWTOR appears to be a LOT LESS gear focused that WoW. WoW was focused on gear more than anything else pretty much. Anyway, I give the finger to all these people who believe a game's raids should only be accessessible to the most leet of the leet. Whats wrong with a group of friends getting together to run a raid and see the story? Nothing. I'm not suggesting that it should be made so easy that even five year olds could run it, but when you demand rubbish such as 'Optimal Specs' and 'Must have X, Y and Z Gear" I just roll my eyes.

i agree pretty much with every point of the above poster. I do not think that having raids for everyone is a bad idea. I do not think SW:TOR is a game hell bent on server first neck breaking progression people. I think this game as it has been sold up to this point is a story driven game. IF not everyone gets to do the content then that leaves out allot of story in the game. Normal modes for everyone is never a bad thing in my eyes. They have a harder content level too so I do not see this being bad at all, I can't really even think of a potential downside.

**vizzle** · 2011-09-28, 01:35 AM

Originally Posted by Thornstar

i agree pretty much with every point of the above poster. I do not think that having raids for everyone is a bad idea. I do not think SW:TOR is a game hell bent on server first neck breaking progression people. I think this game as it has been sold up to this point is a story driven game. IF not everyone gets to do the content then that leaves out allot of story in the game. Normal modes for everyone is never a bad thing in my eyes. They have a harder content level too so I do not see this being bad at all, I can't really even think of a potential downside.

Your logic doesn't connect. First you say you don't think that SWTOR will be about server firsts and progression. Then you say "they have a harder content level too". News to you, the server firsts and the progression will be played in the "harder content". The story content will be sold in the normal modes, to people who do not wish to dedicate the time needed to learn hardmodes with a group.

Also, people arguing about gear. :/ Really? Do people really still think it's about the gear? People who want hardmodes aren't on some hell bent rage and agenda that wants to stop casuals from EVER getting gear. Give them all the gear they want, I really couldn't care less. I don't know why people are still so stuck up over what color their gear is, and why people get upset when "omgah everyone has full epix dis is horiblz."

The fact is, the people who want to do hard modes NEED better gear because the content they do is HARDER. We don't want better gear just so we can say "my gears better than yours" (although I'm sure that there are a few children who do this), we want better gear because we need better gear. If the gear requirement for normal modes and hard modes were the same, then hard modes wouldn't really be that much harder than normal modes. There would be no artificial gear progression after you gear up from normal modes.

**Gavan** · 2011-09-28, 02:21 AM

Originally Posted by Karteli

Agreed opinions are opinion. Everyone has a different opinion on it, and we could argue it, then someone comes in with an entirely new spin!

On the physics quote, yep, I missed it. If you said raiders have a clear direction on their timely progress without a direction where they are going, while raiders with a clear direction of where they want to be have no idea how long it will take .. I'll get that one

Nice, well, seeing as you're playing Imp, I should like to kill you one day. :P

Peace out.

**Thornstar** · 2011-09-28, 02:50 AM

Originally Posted by vizzle

Your logic doesn't connect. First you say you don't think that SWTOR will be about server firsts and progression. Then you say "they have a harder content level too". News to you, the server firsts and the progression will be played in the "harder content". The story content will be sold in the normal modes, to people who do not wish to dedicate the time needed to learn hardmodes with a group.

My logic is pretty sound to me! I think the game will not be mainly focused around the OMG SERVER FIRST people. While obviously some people will be like that, I think mainly people are playing for the story aspect of the MMO. I could be wrong but that has been the selling point of the game for a while.

Also, people arguing about gear. :/ Really? Do people really still think it's about the gear? People who want hardmodes aren't on some hell bent rage and agenda that wants to stop casuals from EVER getting gear. Give them all the gear they want, I really couldn't care less. I don't know why people are still so stuck up over what color their gear is, and why people get upset when "omgah everyone has full epix dis is horiblz."

The fact is, the people who want to do hard modes NEED better gear because the content they do is HARDER.We don't want better gear just so we can say "my gears better than yours" (although I'm sure that there are a few children who do this), we want better gear because we need better gear. If the gear requirement for normal modes and hard modes were the same, then hard modes wouldn't really be that much harder than normal modes. There would be no artificial gear progression after you gear up from normal modes.

I do not recall mentioning anything about the loot system, or hard core people not getting what they earned. I agree they should get a better reward for hard work. Totally agree on that. If I somehow gave off that impression that was not my intention.

**Strikesuit** · 2011-09-28, 03:08 AM

Originally Posted by wrists

when i first started raiding (vanilla) i was in a terrible guild that only ever got to do mc. i didnt mind missing bwl/aq/naxx, i was in awe of the people that had dedicated the time to do it, and it made the very few epics that i did get mean a lot more to me.

The thing is that this attitude is obsolete. Once upon a time, power windows were a luxury upgrade in cars. Just because I was happy to roll up windows years ago, it doesn't mean I'd accept a car maker charging competitive prices for a vehicle lacking this feature.

I really hope TOR doesn't cater to the competitive crowd. That inevitably turns the game into Super Mario. I like Super Mario, just not in my RPGs.

**vizzle** · 2011-09-28, 03:43 AM

Originally Posted by Strikesuit

The thing is that this attitude is obsolete. Once upon a time, power windows were a luxury upgrade in cars. Just because I was happy to roll up windows years ago, it doesn't mean I'd accept a car maker charging competitive prices for a vehicle lacking this feature.

I really hope TOR doesn't cater to the competitive crowd. That inevitably turns the game into Super Mario. I like Super Mario, just not in my RPGs.

They've already pretty much given away that they will try to cater to the competitive crowd to some extent with the implementation of hard modes. If they didn't want to cater to the competitive crowd then they would just make one version of the raids/operations which would be doable by everyone. By making hard modes, there will be competition. (Not to mention that they've also said that there will be ranked tournaments/rankings in PvP post-launch which brings competition as well)

I really don't see why you detest that TOR will also support a crowd that you are not forced to be a part of. No one is making you join a breakneck progression guild that is striving to down all the hardmodes faster than the other guilds on the realm. You can stick to a calm, normal mode progression guild if you wish.

**Kambei** · 2011-09-28, 07:40 AM

One thing about SWTOR raiding and gear that I've read that I really like is that the gear that drops will be based on the difficulty level. 16 man raid has better loot than 8 man, hard mode better that normal.

To Vizzle's earlier post, only the kids want to brag about gear and argue about it for the sake of it. People that want to push the edge of challenging content want it so they can be competitive. Those that are wanting to experience all of the story lines and run through the normal modes don't have to worry about the gear needed to push content. If you are a race car driver in Formula 1, yeah, you need the race car. Most of us don't need one to get to work. Besides, the gas bill would break you.

**Jelena** · 2011-09-28, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by Gavan

I'm planning on creating an "end game" digest for when the NDA is released. I've got a TON of data on my computer already, so after this test cycles raids are over, I'm hoping to have videos and such ready. Can't say much beyond pointing you to the video for EV.

That sounds absolutely awesome!

I used to raid hardcore (really really hardcore) in Vanilla and TBC. I took a loooong break after my guild, thats was the no1 raid guild on my server, fell apart just before Sunwell, and loosing all my hard-earned DKP because of this. I was totally burned out. The nice thing about WOTLK was that after having not played for 8 months some RL friends dragged me back in and with their help I was able to catch up gearwise pretty fast. Something that was almost impossible in vanilla and TBC. I had more fun with those friends (who were casual players but quite capable) then I had in my hardcore raidguild. So I will never raid hardcore again but if I cannot make decent progression playing casual I will not play for long. So I do hope your predictions will be right Gavan.

**creedster** · 2011-09-28, 09:50 AM

Don't see a problem. Loot politics in raids is the boringest thing ever. Who cares that someone else gets an item as well?

And people who say 'welfare epics' are idiots.

**Belial** · 2011-09-28, 11:58 AM

I don't know if BW have mentioned anything about this so correct me if I'm wrong. But as I remember it, the operations will have more than just normal and hard. That said, what worries me is: Do we have to clear normal to get into hard or can we go strait into hard from the start? I would love to be able to skip the whole running through other "easy" modes before I can get into what matters for me. I absolute hated that in WoW that I had to do normal first instead of being able to go strait to HM's.

**Karteli** · 2011-09-28, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Gavan

Nice, well, seeing as you're playing Imp, I should like to kill you one day. :P

Peace out.

Indeed, thanks for chatting.

Perhaps we'll see a new take on how end game work. For myself, I'll concede that I may simply be biased after seeing how Blizzard did things - which we agree was far from perfect.

From the official forums it is clear that others want alternate end game content as well, so I'll look forward to seeing how it works out.

I'll go easy on ya in PVP

Peace.

**ptwonline** · 2011-09-28, 02:35 PM

I don't mind having raids is a key component of endgame content.

My beef is that unless you're in an uber expert guild that clears everything in the first half dozen attempts, players get sucked into raiding for ridiculous amounts of time and feel obligated to always be there to help their guild progress, and tyo keep coming afterwards to farm gear. And then there are hard modes. It's just not healthy.

Sure, people will tell you then not to show up every night, but anyone who has been in a raiding guild knows how frustrating it is to have part-time raiders. Need 10 players? You'll get 17 one night and people frustrated, and 6 the next night and people frustrated.

Raiding would be great if it was kept as a smaller component of the endgame instead of the lion's share. Something special yoi would do now and then, and not something you have to grind out 3+ nights of the week.

**Jelena** · 2011-09-28, 03:22 PM

I sadly recognized a lot of truths in this recent article on Massively: http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/09...rrible-person/ *sigh*

**jearle** · 2011-09-28, 03:50 PM

Raiding as a key component is the oldest form of end game, I like it most likely due to the fact that I kinda grew up with it from EQ and forward.

I would like to see other options also, but raiding is a staple and something i definitely want to enjoy in TOR.

Excited to see the open world PvP too, sounds epic, however it is all about execution.

**ptwonline** · 2011-09-28, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by Jelena

I sadly recognized a lot of truths in this recent article on Massively: http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/09...rrible-person/ *sigh*

Yup. That sums it up very, very well.

When people ask "why would anyone play an MMO solo?" it's because of exactly what that article describes. I went down that rabbit-hole with WoW, and I never, ever want to go back. I gained 10-15 pounds every year I played WoW because I "had" to raid instead of working out. Since I quit WoW 2 months ago I have lost 35 pounds. I still play games a lot, I can just do it with more flexible time so I CAN work out and have a better balanced life.

I play Rift solo.

I will play SWTOR mostly solo, doing some small group stuff with my brother.

Raiding? Never again, unless it's designed to be uber-casual.

**Gothicshark** · 2011-09-28, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by Eezee

Hello everyone,

Nerfed

I think you fail to understand that MMOs are games for the masses, not for elitist *****s. It took Blizzard a long time to realize this. sure the elitist *****s will get server firsts and the best gear first but they do not get exclusive access to the content. A mmo should cater to the masses and not to the few.

**Babaganouch** · 2011-09-28, 09:17 PM

If you can't kill a boss, try to figure out what you're doing wrong and sort it out. Nerfs ruin the whole learning experience.

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