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  1. #61
    Scarab Lord Trollsbane's Avatar
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    I would like a once every 6 months able to change AC at max level by doing a questline.

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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Roose View Post
    If they do play that differently it would also be a shame, because to have to pick sides based solely on class availability is lame. We saw how well having shammies and pallies exclusively worked. I can't imagine how it would be if every single class was exclusive.

    http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/classes - shows 8 classes. ACs are just specializations...or specs as we know them in wow. I want to be wrong, so someone please explain how there are 16 different classes. I see 4 classes with 2 or 3 viable specs each. Again, horde and ally warloks are still the same class. Different animations and races does not mean different class.
    Wrong subheading, look at game systems > Advanced Classes.

  3. #63
    Scarab Lord Trollsbane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roose View Post
    If they do play that differently it would also be a shame, because to have to pick sides based solely on class availability is lame. We saw how well having shammies and pallies exclusively worked. I can't imagine how it would be if every single class was exclusive.

    http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/classes - shows 8 classes. ACs are just specializations...or specs as we know them in wow. I want to be wrong, so someone please explain how there are 16 different classes. I see 4 classes with 2 or 3 viable specs each. Again, horde and ally warloks are still the same class. Different animations and races does not mean different class.
    Ok, here we go.
    All classes are mirror from the opposite faction, so if you divide these numbers by 2, you will get the total number of unique classes and talent trees in the game.

    16 Classes (These branch off from the base classes, but are 100% their own class)
    Bounty Hunter Powertech
    Bounty Hunter Mercenary
    Sith Warrior Juggernaut
    Sith Warrior Maruader
    Imperial Agent Operative
    Imperial Agent Sniper
    Sith Inquisitor Assassin
    Sith Inquisitor Sorcerer
    Jedi Knight Guardian
    Jedi Knight Sentinal
    Trooper Vanguard
    Trooper Commando
    Jedi Consular Sage
    Jedi Consular Shadow
    Smuggler Scoundrel
    Smuggler Gunslinger

    32 specific talent trees (specs) that can only be used by one of the classes (ACs), and not both
    Shield Tech
    Advanced Prototype
    Arsenal
    Bodayguard
    Vengeance
    Immortal
    Annihilation
    Carnage
    Concealment
    Medic
    Marksmanship
    Engineering
    Deception
    Darkness
    Lightning
    Corruption
    Vigilance
    Defense
    Watchman
    Combat
    Tactics
    Shield Specialist
    Gunnery
    Combat Medic
    Telekinetics
    Seer
    Infiltration
    Kinetic Combat
    Saboteur
    Sharpshooter
    Sawbones
    Scrapper

    8 specific talent trees (specs) that can be used by 2 classes (ACs that branch from the same specific standard class)
    Firebug
    Rage
    Lethality
    Madness
    Focus
    Assault Specialist
    Balance
    Dirty Fighting
    Last edited by Trollsbane; 2011-09-28 at 02:55 AM.

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  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Roose View Post
    If they do play that differently it would also be a shame, because to have to pick sides based solely on class availability is lame. We saw how well having shammies and pallies exclusively worked. I can't imagine how it would be if every single class was exclusive.

    http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/classes - shows 8 classes. ACs are just specializations...or specs as we know them in wow. I want to be wrong, so someone please explain how there are 16 different classes. I see 4 classes with 2 or 3 viable specs each. Again, horde and ally warloks are still the same class. Different animations and races does not mean different class.
    Advanced Class isn't a spec. It's like Class Part 2. Specs and talent trees and all that good stuff are within advanced classes.

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  5. #65
    Scarab Lord Trollsbane's Avatar
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    If you've played or know about Aion, they did this too.

    A mage can be a Spiritmaster or Sorcerer
    A warrior can be a Templar or Gladiator
    A scout can be an Assassin or Ranger
    A priest can be a Cleric or Chanter

    8 classes, not 4. And a class is not a spec, it's a class.

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  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollsbane View Post
    If you've played or know about Aion, they did this too.

    A mage can be a Spiritmaster or Sorcerer
    A warrior can be a Templar or Gladiator
    A scout can be an Assassin or Ranger
    A priest can be a Cleric or Chanter

    8 classes, not 4. And a class is not a spec, it's a class.
    Yeah, when I first heard of the system I immediately thought of Aion. It was a great system, as it lets you try out the aspects of each class in that general category, and still maintaining a large selection of classes to chose from.
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  7. #67
    Scarab Lord Roose's Avatar
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    Thanks for breakdown.

    I can see why people would be against changing ACs. From a RP perspective it makes no sense. Then again, I have never really cared much about that sort of thing and I think dual spec was one of the best things Blizz has ever added. I just can't stand the idea of never being able to change roles after being spoiled by dual specs. I sure hope it is one of the things Bio has picked up from wow.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Roose View Post
    Thanks for breakdown.

    I can see why people would be against changing ACs. From a RP perspective it makes no sense. Then again, I have never really cared much about that sort of thing and I think dual spec was one of the best things Blizz has ever added. I just can't stand the idea of never being able to change roles after being spoiled by dual specs. I sure hope it is one of the things Bio has picked up from wow.
    they said there would be dual spec after launch, for in AC only I hope, but thats still 3 specs to switch between.

  9. #69
    The Insane smrund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trollsbane View Post
    If you've played or know about Aion, they did this too.

    A mage can be a Spiritmaster or Sorcerer
    A warrior can be a Templar or Gladiator
    A scout can be an Assassin or Ranger
    A priest can be a Cleric or Chanter

    8 classes, not 4. And a class is not a spec, it's a class.
    After playing AION, it's more like this:
    A mage can be kick ass or take names.
    A warrior can be suck or major suck
    A scout can be not played.
    A priest can talk the talk or walk the walk
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  10. #70
    Epic! Iceleaf's Avatar
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    It depends how you count "16 classes".

    Lets use Sith warrior and Jedi knight as examples.

    Gameplay- and balance-wise "Sith warrior" and "Jedi knight" are the same. They got same type of spells and resource but with appropriate resource names (Like Jedi does not use "rage" but Sith does) and they can both perform same roles depending on their AC.

    However since this is story-driven MMO the differences dont just stop to spell names and resource name..

    You get:
    -Totally personal class-story when levelling. Sith warrior wont do same story than Jedi knight does. Bounty hunter wont do 100% same story as Sith warrior does even if they are on same faction. This time, its personal.
    -Personal starship. Again, Sith warrior and Jedi Knight wont be using similar starships. Tho its visual, starships will perform the same.
    -Different companions. Sith warrior wont have the "R2D2" type of companion that Jedi does etc. Its totally different feeling and adds to the story.
    -At start you will get "Empire" dungeons and "Republic" dungeons but later on faction-neutral ones but with story tied to faction. Tho not class thing, it adds up.
    -Personalized armor or gear-sets(?). There is "Sith warrior gear progression" and "Jedi knight gear progression" separably for reason. Think like ToC tier armor but way much cooler and wider idea. Sith warrior will be using dark/red colors and dark long capes. Jedi will be using the famous brown/green gear at least on the videos. There might be faction-neutral sets but in essence thats the idea.
    -Possibly personalized speeches.


    So if you count only gameplay-wise then theres "8 classes" but if you count the ones I listed up there is "16 classes". Because to me at least, it doesnt matter if jedi knight plays the same as sith warrior..the story alone makes them different classes to me accompanied by the other things.
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  11. #71
    Ok lets draw a quick comparison to WoW:

    Lets say that instead of being completely separate classes, warlocks and mages both started out at level one as the same class...say "wizard". You are leveling along, finally you hit level 10 yay! And you get to choose your advanced class. You can decide to fully explore the arcane and elemental magic, or you can decide to delve into the dark arts of demonic magic. At that point you are no longer a "wizard", you become a mage or a warlock.

    Are you able to respec from mage to warlock? No, of course not thats dumb. I think you can respec within your mage or warlock talent trees though.
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  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Roose View Post
    If they do play that differently it would also be a shame, because to have to pick sides based solely on class availability is lame. We saw how well having shammies and pallies exclusively worked. I can't imagine how it would be if every single class was exclusive.

    http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/classes - shows 8 classes. ACs are just specializations...or specs as we know them in wow. I want to be wrong, so someone please explain how there are 16 different classes. I see 4 classes with 2 or 3 viable specs each. Again, horde and ally warloks are still the same class. Different animations and races does not mean different class.
    This is exactly what I meant in my above post. Sure there are many factors in allowing a limited AC swap but I think there are many players that have a hard time grasping the difference of choosing a class and then choosing an adv class.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shardik View Post
    they said there would be dual spec after launch, for in AC only I hope, but thats still 3 specs to switch between.
    So far your right. The duel spec will be within an individual AC only and not inbetween AC's.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by iceberg265 View Post
    Ok lets draw a quick comparison to WoW:

    Lets say that instead of being completely separate classes, warlocks and mages both started out at level one as the same class...say "wizard". You are leveling along, finally you hit level 10 yay! And you get to choose your advanced class. You can decide to fully explore the arcane and elemental magic, or you can decide to delve into the dark arts of demonic magic. At that point you are no longer a "wizard", you become a mage or a warlock.

    Are you able to respec from mage to warlock? No, of course not thats dumb. I think you can respec within your mage or warlock talent trees though.
    This is ironic coming from someone posting as a druid. Warlocks are mages don't share any spells or abilities, so your comparison is flawed.

    A better comparison in WoW is feral druid vs. caster druid. You start off as a druid and at level 10, you choose your advanced class: Feral or Caster. If you go feral, you get a talent tree for bear, a talent tree for cat, and a generic druid talent tree. If you go caster, you get a talent tree for balance, a talent tree for resto, and the same generic druid talent tree. All 4 druid types still share core spells like Mark of the Wild, Rebirth, Innervate, Travel Form...etc.

    Suddenly a bear decides he wants to go resto. Should we allow a melee armored tank to respec into a spellcasting squishy healer?
    Quote Originally Posted by iceberg265 View Post
    No, of course not thats dumb
    Yet, WoW allows it. And SWTOR has built all of their classes around a similar model (that's actually more in line with the Paladin/Shaman model than Druid).

    A class, regardless of AC choice, will have the same story, the same companions, the same ship, the same basic core abilities, etc. The AC is just an artificial barrier to an additional set of abilities and what weapon/armor you will want to use. This is why so many individuals don't buy the argument that ACs are anything more than just specialized talent specs, designed to simplify classes so they don't have to balance your game around something like feral cats grabbing healer talents or moonkins grabbing bear talents. However, to say that player should never be able to switch back from one AC to another and they should re-roll and play the same storyline again because "it's like warrior vs. mage" is disingenuous.

    "While it occasionally may be mentioned, your Advanced Class does not significantly impact your story. This is intentional." - Georg Zoeller, Principal Lead Combat Designer
    The story is really what defines the class in this game. This is why even though the Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior have identical abilities and talents, they're considered different classes even if WoW players would just see them as "Alliance Warrior" and "Horde Warrior" with lightsabers.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrysia View Post
    Randy, I'll give you a hypothetical. Lets say you leveled a Warrior in WoW up to max level, but then decided you didn't like Warriors, or something changed, are you going to demand that Blizzard allow you to change that Warrior to a Mage? No, you picked your class, so now that's your class. If you don't like it, you reroll.

    That's what we, and, thus far, the developers are saying. The AC's aren't subspecs, they are separate classes, you just pick them a little later than in WoW.
    i fully understand the concept, and hypotheticals aren't really required, honestly...i just think that by introducing a player to the base trooper class first, for example, and then having a permanent fork in the road between dps/tank and dps/healing down the road you set up a somewhat arbitrary barrier for the sake of role playing decisions...and until the game is more mature, has been through a few waves of balancing adjustments, and performance at endgame is known i'm going to hold my opinion that some flexibility should be afforded the player concerning AC choice...if you can't read between the lines, considering how class balancing in WoW has been an up and down affair with disturbingly frequent and dramatic changes, i want as much flexibility as possible to work around potentially "broken" ACs...and the fact the entire class decision tree (unlike WoW) is not set at level 1 makes this more of an option in this game than others, which is why the WoW comparison is fatally flawed...

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by randysavage View Post
    i fully understand the concept, and hypotheticals aren't really required, honestly...i just think that by introducing a player to the base trooper class first, for example, and then having a permanent fork in the road between dps/tank and dps/healing down the road you set up a somewhat arbitrary barrier for the sake of role playing decisions...and until the game is more mature, has been through a few waves of balancing adjustments, and performance at endgame is known i'm going to hold my opinion that some flexibility should be afforded the player concerning AC choice...if you can't read between the lines, considering how class balancing in WoW has been an up and down affair with disturbingly frequent and dramatic changes, i want as much flexibility as possible to work around potentially "broken" ACs...and the fact the entire class decision tree (unlike WoW) is not set at level 1 makes this more of an option in this game than others, which is why the WoW comparison is fatally flawed...
    First of all I want to say that what I'm about to say is not ment as an insult or the like in any ways. But what I here you saying is that if you had your eyes on a specific AC and it turns out to be performing not so well (aka. underpowered), you would like to reroll the other AC which is performing well. What you and others fail to see here is (though I doubt it has to do with not understanding it rather than accepting it is done this way) that even though a Guardien and a Sentinel have the same baseclass (Jedi Knight), they are 2 seperated classes. So yes, you can use the WoW comparison by saying it would be the same if you could reroll from War to Mage, without actually rerolling, but rather "respeccing" in WoW which you can't... Though wouldn't be suprised if Blizzard made that a Premium service.

    The thing is. We all are more or less taking a change when we roll our first class (AC) in the game if we strickly talk about what is ballanced and what is not, since ther is only so much we know about the game. How about having some faith in Bioware that they will do everything they can to balance things and you can roll what you think would be the most enjoyable Class (AC) to play rather than worrie about class balance and what not.

    I can't help but get the feeling that you are mostly only interrested in knowing what classes (AC's) will be underpowered or overpowered, and then go for the OP one.
    Last edited by Belial; 2011-09-28 at 10:48 PM.

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