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  1. #21
    tbh i'm looking forward to noobing out when SW:TOR rolls around, it's what made wow fun to begin with, the sense of discovery and actually learning how to play the game rather than being told THIS is how you play the game, if you dont play it exactly like that, you suck

    theorycrafting certainly has it's place, but i think it's a perfectly legitimate concern to have that theorycrafting may completely take over the actual fun aspect of playing the game, as a lot of people simply don't realise that in a min/max situation the best theorycrafted spec and talents are focused around the best gear and a perfect playstyle, whereas 90% of the playerbase wont have either.

    wow is in a constant state of debate over what the theorycrafters say is best and what the developers say should be balanced across all specs - the problem is that the wannabe super hardcore players blow the results from theorycrafting way out of proportion and it ends up turning into world of simcraft, i dont want to see such things happen in SW:TOR, we just need to have faith that bioware are better at balancing talents, specs and builds, so it purely depends on the skill and playstyle of the player and that no one spec is better than another in any given class, unless you're honestly clueless at speccing or understanding your class role, cos reading talents is hard.
    <insert witty signature here>

  2. #22
    To the offtopic portion of this thread: Theorycrafting to me isn't about eeking out the extra 17 dps you can if you reforge everything exactly perfectly. It's about knowing WHY things happen the way they do in game. Today, there is a lot of common information out there that was gained loooong ago from theorycrafting. 17% hit is cap? Didn't know that in Vanilla. 102.4 avoidance means a tank is unhittable. Didn't know that until TBC (at least I didn't...). And don't even start on the resistance numbers--that's always been a mess, as recently as Sarth3D tanking!

    Theorycrafting is about knowing WHY the example 10k hunter was doing so little dps compared to the rest of the raid. It's not to demean or criticize. It's for self improvement.

    That being said, I'm not sure what you have in mind for theorycrafting for swtor, but I'm eager to see theorycrafting and if there's anything I can do to help out, I'd love to.

  3. #23
    If some people are a little unsure of what exactly theory-crafting entails, here is a small video about 4 min. long.

    http://tormonger.com/node/519/TCraft

  4. #24
    Grunt Kambei's Avatar
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    To answer a few of the recent questions:

    Yes, I am saying "we" as there are a few of us already working together to build a website. So yes, EJ of SWTOR(but we have our own name). We are not making this site available to the public until much closer to the launch date as there would be nothing to share with the NDA in effect.

    As for what we have in mind, it's to establish a general knowledge base for all players, much in line with what Cellery mentioned. In TBC, it was extremely useful when I switched to tanking to be able to look up all the relevant stats on Defense cap, avoidance rating, etc. My goal wasn't to min/max or pursue full BiS gear. It was to make sure I had the basic set up for tanking in place so I wouldn't completely suck.

    While a part of theorycrafting does often focus on BiS gear and the goals of hard core players, this only one small part of it.

    Our goal is to establish a consistent format(table of contents) for all of the AC threads that lay out the information in an easily accessible way that covers everything from the basic stats info to how the different spec choices affect you, to gear and more.

    And the best theorycraft class threads I've read don't just focus on the "Hard Core" gear lists/players. They cover the whole spread, from those just looking to start into end game through the progression pusher. We want to have the information available to help players at all levels improve, whatever their PvP or PvE goals are.

    ---------- Post added 2011-09-29 at 11:24 AM ----------

    Looking for a few number crushers for the Republic side.

  5. #25
    There's quite a lot of theorycrafting discussion over at sithwarrior.com, which, despite the name, discusses all factions and classes - we even have some mirror terminology dictionaries up for all the classes, and most of us are pretty fluent in our chosen classes' nomenclature for the opposite faction, too. Most of it is taking place on the forums right now, but there are a few posts with basic theorycrafting information and methodology on the front page. We'll gladly welcome anyone else who wants to join in the discussions, as there's always more to work out .
    Last edited by Alratan; 2011-10-08 at 12:29 PM.

  6. #26
    The Lightbringer vian's Avatar
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    You can check out Sithwarrior.com
    Quote Originally Posted by bizzy View Post
    yeh but lava is just very hot water

  7. #27
    I heard a rumour that there MAY not be any form of dps meters and such like there is in wow. If this is infact the case, theory crafting wont matter much to general players because they wont "see" the increased result of checking up on it. hmmm :P

  8. #28
    As long as there is a combat log with damage listed, there will be dps meters. LotRO didn't have addons and didn't have timestamps in the combat lot, so a program was created which ran along side LotRO and continually parsed the log file between presses of a button, timing it automatically.

    Regardless, people lacking dps meters would only apply to very specific kinds of theorycrafting, as it's still beneficial for tanking, healing, pvp and areas of dps classes which don't require parsing (e.g. utility) for people to see the difference.

  9. #29
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    I have no problem with min/maxing. I have a problem when people say that min/maxing is the only way to play the game, and then try to belittle others that don't.

  10. #30
    I know theorycrafting has it's place in MMOs but I sincerely hope SWTOR will be more focused on the tactics rather then DPS when engaging boss fights. The min/maxing style of WoW is factor in my quitting, playing a hunter in high end raiding for 6 years and being forced into 1 spec really ruined my enjoyment with some expansions. I want to see more emphasis on playing the game rather the numbers we produce.

    Lightning. It flashes bright, then... fades away. It can't protect. It only destroys

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Elyoric View Post
    I have no problem with min/maxing. I have a problem when people say that min/maxing is the only way to play the game, and then try to belittle others that don't.
    So so so much truth, this man has seen!

  12. #32
    High Overlord Dalagrath's Avatar
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    I believe that theorycrafting is one of the biggest hits in my WoW career dying. At first, got a kick out of learning how to bring in huge DPS and heals, but then I realized that all of this TCing just made the game a big screen of numbers and probability and percentages. It literally sucked the fun out of the game for me. With places like wowhead and wowwiki, the game turned into a huge cluster of reading tactics and getting numbers.

    We lost the actual FUN part about playing video games in this regard. I will in no way, theorycraft or help you do so. I will do my best, take advice, learn from my mistakes, just like Vanilla wow.

  13. #33
    my theorycrafting stops at 'which spell hits the hardest?' After that i leave it to myself to do it well.

  14. #34
    Unfortunately, thanks to whiny bads SWTOR does not have a damage meter, and no real theorycrafting can happen without being able to measure changes.

  15. #35
    Pandaren Monk Shamburger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elyoric View Post
    I have no problem with min/maxing. I have a problem when people say that min/maxing is the only way to play the game, and then try to belittle others that don't.
    I mostly agree with this statement. I would never force my beliefs on someone that min/maxing is the only way to play. I do have a problem when peoples choices to say... not play a top dps spec, would impede me from achieving my goals.

    If we're 5k dps short of a fight and this BH wanted to dps in so-and so-spec instead of the one that does 10k more, THAT I have an issue with. Actually that's a lie, I don;t even have a problem with it. What I have a problem with is when they complain after getting replaced.

    IMO everyone should be free to play whatever they want, as long as it doesn't affect me (negatively) in any way, shape, or form.
    Last edited by Shamburger; 2011-10-09 at 08:14 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Shamburger View Post
    If we're 5k dps short of a fight and this BH wanted to dps in so-and so-spec instead of the one that does 10k more, THAT I have an issue with. Actually that's a lie, I don;t even have a problem with it. What I have a problem with is when they complain after getting replaced.

    IMO everyone should be free to play whatever they want, as long as it doesn't affect me (negatively) in any way, shape, or form.
    With that, you play the ball directly back to Bioware, which is their Job to fix such a big difference in Spec performance.

    But 10k dps is a huge cliff, whats with, lets say 2k dps? Still no right to complain? Or 1k dps? 200 dps? See where this is heading? Where is the magic number which would be Ok for the majority of people, when one Spec is slacking behind? Some guys respec every other day for a simcrafted gain of 1% damage, heck people even race change for that stuff...

    You see its kind of a viscious circle that. You have fun when you optimize your rotation and sqeeze out the highest numbers possible. I have fun when I can just kill some bad guys, however I do that. When we now get thrown together via some random flashpoint (dungeon) finder, the following will happen:

    You get frustrated at my inability to get my dps up, I get frustrated because I can not live up to your expectations. Both of our fun stops right there, I likely get booted from the group, my day was made...

    No ones asking to not min/max or to not theorycraft. All what I asking is a little understanding of each others different views of what we feel is fun.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Barga View Post
    If some people are a little unsure of what exactly theory-crafting entails, here is a small video about 4 min. long.

    http://tormonger.com/node/519/TCraft
    Tormonger is going to be doing a lot of theorycrafting post-launch. But on a different note, no one is going to be forced to get recount or recount-like addons and parse logs.

    If you personally would like to play the game without numbers tracking your ability, then I'm all for you enjoying the game the way you want to enjoy it. That's the great thing about guilds: you're able to find a bunch of people with the same mindset and same goals as you to play the game with.

    If you're concerned that people in PuGs are going to be raging-douchebag-elitist players who are telling you that you suck because they're using a DPS tracking addon, then don't PuG; in this case, pugging is clearly not for you.

    The world of parsing, number-crunching players and players who would rather play the game without any of that sort of thing does not have to collide. Therefore, it should not be a concern to anyone.
    Last edited by The Acrimony; 2011-10-09 at 10:38 PM.

  18. #38
    Theorycrafting has its place. For guilds having a difficult time beating enrage timers (using WoW as an example), there are a couple possible problems. You could be undergeared for the encounter, or your DPS needs to improve (I'm looking at Patchwerk type encounters... situational awareness is an entirely different beast). While Bioware might balance its various DPS/healing/tank specs within a few percent of each other, if the player in question "misplaced" a point or two in his role's talent tree, they aren't going to perform optimally. I don't think a casual player who only does an occasional flashpoint for fun really cares about his numbers much. However, if a guild is doing progression operation content, checking a theorycrafting site is worth the few minutes to see what you or your group might be doing "wrong".

  19. #39
    Pandaren Monk Shamburger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dingo3000 View Post
    With that, you play the ball directly back to Bioware, which is their Job to fix such a big difference in Spec performance.
    True. It's not 100% said-players fault. But it was their choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by dingo3000 View Post
    But 10k dps is a huge cliff, whats with, lets say 2k dps? Still no right to complain? Or 1k dps? 200 dps? See where this is heading? Where is the magic number which would be Ok for the majority of people, when one Spec is slacking behind? Some guys respec every other day for a simcrafted gain of 1% damage, heck people even race change for that stuff...
    Agreed that 10k was a bit of an over exaggeration but from reading these forums it's the only way to get some points across sometimes. The magic number (for me anyways) would be the minimum point where the fight is able to be complete. If we can still do the fight with someone (or everyone for that matter) in a "sub-optimal spec" that's fine. This is also why I choose to play with like-minded players. Most of my guild (and all of my raid team) are comprised of people that have the same mindset as I. Squeeze every ounce of dps/hps/tps out as possible. I am one of those people that simcraft for 1% gain, I even race-changed for more dps in BC, but I would never expect or force-by-threat another person to do that. And how I avoid doing so it by playing with people that value the same things I do, I'm sure you would be able to do the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by dingo3000 View Post
    You see its kind of a viscious circle that. You have fun when you optimize your rotation and sqeeze out the highest numbers possible. I have fun when I can just kill some bad guys, however I do that. When we now get thrown together via some random flashpoint (dungeon) finder, the following will happen:

    You get frustrated at my inability to get my dps up, I get frustrated because I can not live up to your expectations. Both of our fun stops right there, I likely get booted from the group, my day was made...

    No ones asking to not min/max or to not theorycraft. All what I asking is a little understanding of each others different views of what we feel is fun.
    So true, so true. I guess there just will never be a way to make EVERYONE happy, not at the same time anyways

    I can't really come up with a solution anyways. I guess it'll be hard to theorycraft anything without the use of an -in-game combat recording system, we'll just have to wait and see!

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by smashzu View Post
    Unfortunately, thanks to whiny bads SWTOR does not have a damage meter, and no real theorycrafting can happen without being able to measure changes.
    We've got a combat log which means it's very possible to add in a damage meter post-launch hopefully.
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