Guess i'm dropping my shadow OS for Holy next patch ^^
So happy for this change! As many have said, it's about time! I may even go non-disc (or should I say Holy!) again.
Guys once again this patch misses the *entire point* of what makes holy not-too-good in 10 man raids right now.
efficiency vs throughput
Holy: 15% larger heals, but 15% less int so 15% smaller mana pool. No crit multiplier other than the base 2.0. Mastery tacks on another 15-20% or so. Spammable holy AoE heals get about 16 HPM, holy's best spot heal (renew) gets 10 HPM. Sanc, in its broken state, allows us to spike up VERY high and it's already our most efficient heal. Buffing sanc by lowering its cost is just strange?? Make a real fix and then change sanc back to being a costly spike again, if our mastery mechanic worked effectively we wouldn't ever need to use DH like tranq since we have a built-in 50k spike as-is. PoM-Sanc + PoH/Coh spam can dump 60k or better raw hps on a 25 man raid, if they fixed area-targeted spells to work as intended this number would be closer to 50k. Why do we want to work like a druid when our spike is repeatable for every imaginable mechanic we need to spike through?
Disc: 15% more mana, 7% smaller heals than Holy as outlined above. Our spammable AoE is about 16 HPM in SoS spec, about 20 in AA (if played properly). We get constant active mana return: Rapture/Evangelism allow me to never run out of mana even when I'm healing heavily. DA+mastery means my AoE healing is about 40% larger than base, amplified by the 7% boost from 15% int for about 50% above base. So disc gets a 50% bonus to AoE heal throughput and efficiency, while Holy gets about the same when you consider the passive bonus times mastery.
but disc mastery almost never overheals and also gives disc a crit multiplier of 2.8 (single target) or 2.6 (PoH). Holy still gets the 2.0 multiplier, and our mastery is guaranteed to overheal at least 40%. So overall we get the same buff to our heals, but disc doesn't have the area-target circle so can't spike quite as high. (1) disc mastery isn't very subject to overheal (2) disc gets constant mana return (3) disc has multiple throughput/effic cooldowns as well. End story: Disc can sustain throughput much longer than holy and has pretty high sustained throughput. Holy can spike much higher than disc but when we try to sustain our max AoE throughput we'll OOM in less than a minute.
I just wish they would fix the original model instead of completely changing it. All they would need to do, to make the old model work:
- Make mastery a bit larger than it is. Holy PoH/CoH need to be more efficient than disc PoH, not less efficient. Holy relies already on very low overheal, because we have so little mana. Let us have more efficiency.
- On the same line, raise the passive bonus from 15% to say 20%. Again, Holy relies more on efficiency than disc but we have less. What?? The patch is even making CoH more expensive. Now it won't even compete with disc. Post patch CoH will only give you 13 HPM, making it barely worth casting (until raid health starts to look pretty full) since PoH and CoH have almost identical HPET figures.
- Mastery needs to overheal for less than all my other standing throughput, similar to how disc's does. This could be accomplished just by making echo taper the way wild growth does. The mechanics are already there, simple change.
- Crit needs a multiplier other than 2.0 to make crit scale at about the same rate after any potential mastery tweak.
After they did all this, they could leave DA and sanc alone, even fix sanc back to it's original (non-op expensive cast) state. Instead, again blizz makes big sweeping changes to the entire design of our class, instead of just fixing what we have. So frustrating for me.
I know a lot of people like the changes, Sigh, I guess, lean on my sanc button even harder than before and sit idle even more than I do now. Yay.
Last edited by zakaluka; 2011-09-28 at 12:44 AM.
They really listened to the feedback, it's great to see that. It was the most logical way to fix the holy spec. Happy about it, now I'll just have to wait and decide which spec I'll be rolling in 4.3. (since my offspec will most likely stay shadow in 10-man)
The Holy changes on the PTR notes are minimal. We were given a potent cooldown, considering how all tanks in 4 set will have full raid walls, this was a necessity.
The changes you propose are far more sweeping than what was actually done. There's nothing wrong with Holy being more like a Resto druid than a Disc priest. Why would you want our two healing specs to be *more* similar? That doesn't make sense to me at all.
By all means, I can understand your gripe with Sanctuary on 25 man. But honestly, on 10 man it's a non-issue. The few times I use it, it does what I need it to do. Hell, I'm in Chakra: Serenity most of the time. Rolling Renews perpetually and +% crit chance is very potent on a 10 man.I know a lot of people like the changes, Sigh, I guess, lean on my sanc button even harder than before and sit idle even more than I do now. Yay.
When I read the notes I saw the same issues as zakaluka. One spell can't fix holy priest specc. There are many more issues considering holy priest such as regen (based not only on spirit). Buffed divine hymn seems to me just as "eyepatch" for those QQing everyday on the forums.
my post was very long and probably confusing so tl;dr -
I think all blizz ever needed to do was (1) boost the size of echo slightly (2) change how it works just a little bit - make it tick fewer times, make it taper? Wouldn't matter. If echo overhealed for less blizz could fix our area targeted spells, and we'd be back on even footing with everyone, back to the 4.0 model of holy priest.
Instead they alter the class design ><.
For 10 mans this buff for holy's divine hymn should bring it in line with more useful spells and up to par with Barrier or even make it more powerful then it, even after barrier is up discs need to heal where as hymn should be enough to keep people topped off on it's own with this buff + holy only buffs.
I kinda wanted to say something about holy's mastery it's slightly off topic though, I don't think the mechanic of applying a hot should be holy's mastery I mean holy is mainly about solid aoe heals and lots of them so the mastery doesn't make sense for the class.
So I was thinking about mastery being changed to something like mending, when you heal a target you leave a mending styled buff but when that player takes damage the buff will proc for healing on that target but then also jump to two or three near by low health targets at the same time and heal them aswell, think of it as a mix of seed of corruption and mending a delayed aoe heal that only procs after damage is applied. Imagine on stackups when everyone has this buff on them and aoe goes off, now with that said the heal would have to be minor and in line with other healers mastery but I think this kind of mastery best suits holy.
Barrier is cast and forget. Hymn is channelled and thus keeps us from doing anything else for it's duration. We gotta move early? You wont get the remainder back.
That said, the buffs to its output in the holy tree might stop the, sadly, familiar sight of "start hymn, tank dies because of pitiful output".
As for the mastery.. Yep, still going to go mostly into overhealing. The only way I can see this becoming similar to disc mastery's efficiency is if it was a trickle down effect.
Cast heal on target> target reaches full health> gains echo of light for 30(or 15) seconds.
-As soon as they reduce from full health, echo of light starts ticking over 6 seconds. It stops again when at full health.
-Have it refreshable like DA.
-Maximum 'stored' output would be capped similar to DA.
-If the target isnt at max HP, it works as before, ticking over 6 seconds.
I should really put this in a different thread :/
---------- Post added 2011-09-28 at 12:59 PM ----------
Thank fuck! About time Holy got a raid cooldown. It's been needed since Blizzard decided 70% of Heroic bosses would be "stack up and spam raid walls to win" type encounters.
I'm shadow MS and Disc OS since dual spec was possible, and all I can say is Thank you thank you thank you. I'm very happy to see Holy get some badly needed love. Slightly OT: Also extremely happy about Attonement changes. I was always so frustrated that Atonement was needlessly melee-bound. Now I can only pray they fix the last party bound healing spell in the game so Disc might actually be able to AoE heal on par
Is it just me, or Holy Radiance is now what PoH should've been a long time ago?
In essence, on a kobold, it's 15yds. On Rag/Ala'kir, it's 15yds from the edge of his model [not the center like it was previously].Originally Posted by Blizzard