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  1. #481
    The wrathcalcs model for windsong is setup to model the described rppm system but in practice it does not work as modeled.

    @Juvencus, the difference shown, as I stated was a worst case windsong (which will never occur, always being better than shown) beating out a best case jade spirit (which will never occur, always being worse than shown).. on average windsong is a large bonus vs jade spirit. Also you do realize int gives a lot more than 1 dps right? The numbers are based on stat weight, as in its normalized to one of the stats (in this case, int). Actual DPS is going to be around 3.5 dps per int.

  2. #482
    Herald of the Titans Lilija's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juvencus View Post
    What talents do you guys use on Garalon? I had Inc+NV for my first few tries but then I realised it's a bit of a waste with all the movement ( even though I don't kite ). I tried FoN+HotW, for the rest of our tries, for the passiveness and the short burst for each leg but I'm not sure.
    What movement? For me it was one of the most static fight this content. Ranged/healers in the middle, boss kited around the room. He is so huge, there is no way to not have range.

    P.S. Legs are for the melee. In fact we weren't allowed to dps them much so melee have something to dps We just DoTem those that were in range.
    Last edited by Lilija; 2012-11-04 at 11:45 PM.

  3. #483
    So I've read some conflicting advice on this, but which DoT do you cast first upon entering an Eclipse? E.g. For Solar, do Sunfire then Moonfire or vice versa? If I cast Sunfire first I get potentially higher uptime on Sunfire, but if I do Moonfire first Sunfire gets a small buff to its initial direct damage.

  4. #484
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponens View Post
    So I've read some conflicting advice on this, but which DoT do you cast first upon entering an Eclipse? E.g. For Solar, do Sunfire then Moonfire or vice versa? If I cast Sunfire first I get potentially higher uptime on Sunfire, but if I do Moonfire first Sunfire gets a small buff to its initial direct damage.
    Maybe it's the jet lag, but how does the uptime differ if you cast it first or second? You aren't extending via nukes until after you put both dots up.

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  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    Maybe it's the jet lag, but how does the uptime differ if you cast it first or second? You aren't extending via nukes until after you put both dots up.
    Yeah on second thought I realized that uptime is identical either way. But what if the Moonfire from the previous Eclipse is still present on the target? Hold off the Moonfire until it expires?

    Unrelated question, what strategy do people use to maximize trash DPS? Having a hard time deciding between: DoTs + Single-target vs. DoTs + Hurricane vs. just Hurricane for medium (3-6) sized packs.

  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponens View Post
    Unrelated question, what strategy do people use to maximize trash DPS? Having a hard time deciding between: DoTs + Single-target vs. DoTs + Hurricane vs. just Hurricane for medium (3-6) sized packs.
    I don't really care about maximizing on trash, and just do what i feel like.
    If i feel like doing something (i.e. playing the game) i put up eclipsed dots and single target nuke and then hit up new eclipsed dots when you get a new eclipse and NG.
    If i'm lazy, or need to do something else, i just slap up a hurricane and then alt tab, take a bite of a sandwhich or just yawns
    Moo, are you happy now?

  7. #487
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponens View Post
    Yeah on second thought I realized that uptime is identical either way. But what if the Moonfire from the previous Eclipse is still present on the target? Hold off the Moonfire until it expires?

    Unrelated question, what strategy do people use to maximize trash DPS? Having a hard time deciding between: DoTs + Single-target vs. DoTs + Hurricane vs. just Hurricane for medium (3-6) sized packs.
    I DoT everything each eclipse cycle, then hardcast to the next utilizing starsurge procs on the way.

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  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilija View Post
    What movement? For me it was one of the most static fight this content. Ranged/healers in the middle, boss kited around the room. He is so huge, there is no way to not have range.

    P.S. Legs are for the melee. In fact we weren't allowed to dps them much so melee have something to dps We just DoTem those that were in range.
    Don't know if it makes a difference but I'm doing 10mans. We got 1-2 melee each raid.

  9. #489
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juvencus View Post
    Don't know if it makes a difference but I'm doing 10mans. We got 1-2 melee each raid.
    Maybe 10man is a bit different but we found the weakspots to be a giant Blizzard troll. We all spent SO much time running to the weakspots, DPSing the legs, then running to a common 'mid' point, we actually were losing DPS. We now just DoT down the front legs, melee attack the back legs (while we DoT them), and then we focus the boss. As long as you're killing legs before new ones spawn (so you don't lose out on mended legs), you should be okay. If your legs take 10 seconds to die or 45 seconds to die really shouldn't matter.

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  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by chinobar View Post
    I don't really care about maximizing on trash, and just do what i feel like.
    Sometimes trash DPS matters! Besides I hate being stomped by other DPS classes on the meters during trash.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    I DoT everything each eclipse cycle, then hardcast to the next utilizing starsurge procs on the way.
    If the DoTs are going to fall off, when is it worth putting out a 2nd set just before exiting Eclipse? This includes both single-target and multi-target situations. I've seen people doing both.

  11. #491
    I'm also a bit uncertain about how to proceed on multi target situations, between 4-6 or so. Whilst in solar spread buffed SunF and then hurricane till they drop? Shrooms a better choice?

    Anyone got tips for Wind Lord Mel'Jarak? Just killed him, whilst spreading both dots on multiple targets when adds were up, but constantly using the CC spear and the fear of using Starfall and breaking such CCs, i think i was far below par. Any solid advice in regards from it? Starfall save to use on the outer wall? Better to just use the buffed dot and ignore the non-buffed one?

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    I'm also a bit uncertain about how to proceed on multi target situations, between 4-6 or so. Whilst in solar spread buffed SunF and then hurricane till they drop? Shrooms a better choice?
    You always want to use hurricane over shrooms except if you are on the move and have free GCDs.

    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    Anyone got tips for Wind Lord Mel'Jarak? Just killed him, whilst spreading both dots on multiple targets when adds were up, but constantly using the CC spear and the fear of using Starfall and breaking such CCs, i think i was far below par. Any solid advice in regards from it? Starfall save to use on the outer wall? Better to just use the buffed dot and ignore the non-buffed one?
    Starfall doesn't break any CC on this fight, but the CCed targets will soak your starfall if you don't place yourself in a good position.

  13. #493
    Herald of the Titans Lilija's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    I'm also a bit uncertain about how to proceed on multi target situations, between 4-6 or so. Whilst in solar spread buffed SunF and then hurricane till they drop? Shrooms a better choice?

    Anyone got tips for Wind Lord Mel'Jarak? Just killed him, whilst spreading both dots on multiple targets when adds were up, but constantly using the CC spear and the fear of using Starfall and breaking such CCs, i think i was far below par. Any solid advice in regards from it? Starfall save to use on the outer wall? Better to just use the buffed dot and ignore the non-buffed one?
    Apparently, our dps method depends on the amount of adds your group is killing at once and therefor can be different for 25man and 10man (25 man AoE+eclipsed DoT; 10 man pure multidot and SS spam). Since I don't like writting the same thing twice, I'll link you to EJ moonkin boss tactic topic where we had a discussion about this fight (summary is in the first post, however, you might want to read into the topic itself - mostly page 3 and 4)
    http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t130963-...mechanics_t14/

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilija View Post
    What movement? For me it was one of the most static fight this content. Ranged/healers in the middle, boss kited around the room. He is so huge, there is no way to not have range.

    P.S. Legs are for the melee. In fact we weren't allowed to dps them much so melee have something to dps We just DoTem those that were in range.
    Exactly. As a moonkin there's no points in maxing individual DPS on the legs (ultimately the only thing you achieve is reducing the DMG of the cleave classes on the leg and thus reducing raid DPS). Puting dots is fine, casting anything else seems dumb at least in the Normal version of the encounter.

    The only reason the caster group should move with the melee is to AoE heal depending on the strat. But, from the point of view of DPS, the best option is to turret like a baws

    TL;DR: dot the legs, max DPS on the boss.

  15. #495
    You forgot moving away from the pink circle when he moves oddly.

  16. #496
    Herald of the Titans Lilija's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    You forgot moving away from the pink circle when he moves oddly.
    If the kitters do their job right, there is no need to move. And even if some slight possition correction is needed you can do that while casting instants. He moves slow enough so you should never have to move away in rush.

  17. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juvencus
    Also HCs have huge amounts of movement which would hurt the mastery buff especially of you have just left an eclipse before moving.
    This is a myth. As Hamlet argued over and over at EJ, the possibility of getting a mastery proc when not in Eclipse doesn't necessarily imply that the proc is less valuable (because on average you also expect to get procs in Eclipse that average out the 'unlucky' procs). A more detailed explanation:

    - The common argument: mastery has marginal value M, the proc has uptime T, the proc has Q amount of mastery therefore the value of the proc is less than Q·M·T because it is Q·M·T only if you get all the procs in Eclipse (the idea that procs are 'wasted').

    - The problem: suppose you get all the procs in Eclipse. Then the value is *not* Q·M·T, it is greater than that, because the marginal value of mastery does not measure DPS gained in Eclipse for each point of Mastery but DPS gained on average for each point of Mastery (that is, when averaging Eclipse damage with non-Eclipse damage).

    * Moonkin DPS can be modelled as DPS = (1 + F·E)D, where F is the damage-weighted fraction of the spells that you cast when on Eclipse, E is the Eclipse bonus and D is the damage we would output if Eclipse didn't increase our damage at all (a term that is independent of mastery). Therefore the marginal value of mastery is M = d(DPS)/dm = F·D·(dE/dm) where m is the amount of mastery and dE/dm is the ratio of Eclipse bonus to mastery. The expected value of the proc is, therefore (assuming that Eclipse periods and proc periods are uncorrelated and that you spend roughly a fraction F of the time in Eclipse):

    V = uptime·[(fraction of procs inside Eclipse · value of procs inside Eclipse) + (fraction of procs outside Eclipse · value of procs outside Eclipse)] = T·[Q·F·(dE/dm)·D + (1 - F)·0] = T·Q·M + 0 = uptime·(marginal value)·(stat amount) just as any other proc.
    Last edited by Tuscarora; 2012-11-09 at 02:42 PM.

  18. #498
    In other words, people forget that QMT only includes "wasted" mastery procs.

  19. #499
    Grunt
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    Quote Originally Posted by boomkinhero View Post
    The wrathcalcs model for windsong is setup to model the described rppm system but in practice it does not work as modeled.
    Where could I find evidence of that? I'd like to check it.

  20. #500
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    What is the ideal way to gem/reforge, I have tried all haste, all crit and all intellect, everything gives the exact same dps number at the end

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