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  1. #1701
    Quote Originally Posted by Todoida View Post
    Im doing right by using the gloves from norushen and the helm from thok// or i should change both itens/ got a little confused here
    thanks for the help
    Have you tried putting what you have (and what you are wondering,too!) into Wrathcalcs to see what general numbers/prospects it gives you? That should be your first go to.
    Last edited by Avaerice; 2014-03-06 at 08:59 PM.

  2. #1702
    I would go for the option the maximises HC tier and HC WF pieces.

  3. #1703
    Mechagnome Serenia's Avatar
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    What about aoe dps then? Couldn't find any help in the beginning of the thread!

  4. #1704
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenia View Post
    What about aoe dps then? Couldn't find any help in the beginning of the thread!

    1-4 targets that live long enough
    = Multidot

    4 targets that don't have much health = Kinda grey area. Usually Hurricane (like described below) but depends on situation. Only Eclipsed DoT might be suitable.

    4+ targets = make sure you are in Solar Eclipse to use Hurricane. You usually want to do it with Nature's Grace so Hurricane ticks faster, but for emergencies, Solar alone will do. Alternativevely you can use Lunar Eclipse + NG for Astra Storm but quite frankly it sucks butt. Don't linger much in any Eclipse though as you will have to crawl your way to the next. Personally if I happen to AoE for a while (3-4 casts) NG will obviously drop, so (if I'm lucky) once the Legendary Meta gem procs, i drop everything and use it as a boost to get quickly to next eclipse

    ***During CDs (Inc+CA) you might wanna up the multidot targets range to 1-6/7 e.g Rook's desperate measures. Don't use your CDs to AoE, only multidot, unless you wanna pad meters.

  5. #1705
    Mechagnome Serenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juvencus View Post

    1-4 targets that live long enough
    = Multidot

    4 targets that don't have much health = Kinda grey area. Usually Hurricane (like described below) but depends on situation. Only Eclipsed DoT might be suitable.

    4+ targets = make sure you are in Solar Eclipse to use Hurricane. You usually want to do it with Nature's Grace so Hurricane ticks faster, but for emergencies, Solar alone will do. Alternativevely you can use Lunar Eclipse + NG for Astra Storm but quite frankly it sucks butt. Don't linger much in any Eclipse though as you will have to crawl your way to the next. Personally if I happen to AoE for a while (3-4 casts) NG will obviously drop, so (if I'm lucky) once the Legendary Meta gem procs, i drop everything and use it as a boost to get quickly to next eclipse

    ***During CDs (Inc+CA) you might wanna up the multidot targets range to 1-6/7 e.g Rook's desperate measures. Don't use your CDs to AoE, only multidot, unless you wanna pad meters.
    Ah fair enough, so then Moonkins aren't as strong at aoe dps as the highest aoe classes? I kinda struggle to fight against other ppl in aoe heavy fights.

  6. #1706
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenia View Post
    Ah fair enough, so then Moonkins aren't as strong at aoe dps as the highest aoe classes? I kinda struggle to fight against other ppl in aoe heavy fights.
    You usually don't wanna drop your Eclipse momentum to Hurricane. Only do it if you happen to be in a fresh Solar or plan for it if your raid setup lacks the aoe gods (ele shamans, locks etc). Strong is certainly not the first word that comes in mind when you mention Moonkin AoE :P

    - - - Updated - - -

    A question of my own this time.

    Why is it that everyone tells me that the Lunar Opener is better "for my gear"? I consistently get much better results with the Solar Opener and by utilising Mushrooms, Bindings not procing on pull is fairly rare for me.

    So what is it with gear/ilvl/trinkets that make Lunar op. come ahead? My theory is that they might be true but i see different results without the Troll Berserking.

  7. #1707
    Quote Originally Posted by Juvencus View Post
    Why is it that everyone tells me that the Lunar Opener is better "for my gear"? I consistently get much better results with the Solar Opener and by utilising Mushrooms, Bindings not procing on pull is fairly rare for me.

    So what is it with gear/ilvl/trinkets that make Lunar op. come ahead? My theory is that they might be true but i see different results without the Troll Berserking.
    Because some napkin maths a few months ago said that the Lunar opener could be better in extremely high gear levels (577+). As usual the wannabe theorycrafters in the community did what they usually do and spread that information everywhere saying LUNAR IS BETTER NOW. In reality the Lunar opener can technically be better but it relies on getting enough SS procs to push through your first Eclipse fast enough to activate CA before your Trinket and Meta proc expire and then getting a second meta proc for your CA. Without those procs you're not going to have much fun because of how important the meta proc is for CA.

    You'll find a lot of the time the people saying Solar opener is bad are people who aren't doing it properly therefore aren't capitalizing on their trinket/meta procs (the people who blindly follow the guide and don't use mushrooms properly).

  8. #1708
    I don't see why lunar opener would be any better... you get the same amount of starfires during the incarnation period, except with solar opener you pop CA when everything is actually up, instead of when everything is down, which is the case for the lunar opener...

  9. #1709
    Quote Originally Posted by Juvencus View Post

    1-4 targets that live long enough
    = Multidot

    4 targets that don't have much health = Kinda grey area. Usually Hurricane (like described below) but depends on situation. Only Eclipsed DoT might be suitable.

    4+ targets = make sure you are in Solar Eclipse to use Hurricane. You usually want to do it with Nature's Grace so Hurricane ticks faster, but for emergencies, Solar alone will do. Alternativevely you can use Lunar Eclipse + NG for Astra Storm but quite frankly it sucks butt. Don't linger much in any Eclipse though as you will have to crawl your way to the next. Personally if I happen to AoE for a while (3-4 casts) NG will obviously drop, so (if I'm lucky) once the Legendary Meta gem procs, i drop everything and use it as a boost to get quickly to next eclipse

    ***During CDs (Inc+CA) you might wanna up the multidot targets range to 1-6/7 e.g Rook's desperate measures. Don't use your CDs to AoE, only multidot, unless you wanna pad meters.
    I wouldn't hurricane at 4 or 5 targets unless it was crucial to the encounter. The small DPE over single target doesn't outweigh the NG loss imo.

  10. #1710
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    Because some napkin maths a few months ago said that the Lunar opener could be better in extremely high gear levels (577+). As usual the wannabe theorycrafters in the community did what they usually do and spread that information everywhere saying LUNAR IS BETTER NOW. In reality the Lunar opener can technically be better but it relies on getting enough SS procs to push through your first Eclipse fast enough to activate CA before your Trinket and Meta proc expire and then getting a second meta proc for your CA. Without those procs you're not going to have much fun because of how important the meta proc is for CA.

    You'll find a lot of the time the people saying Solar opener is bad are people who aren't doing it properly therefore aren't capitalizing on their trinket/meta procs (the people who blindly follow the guide and don't use mushrooms properly).
    Now that you have mentioned procs, I usually find myself refreshing CA dot quite early after the first application because either Meta or Totem proc is going to fall off. Basically when I would apply the first CA dots (solar opener) I will have all possible buffs up, Bindings+Totem+Meta+NG+Pot+Jade spirit, but around 5-6sec after either the Meta or the Totem is going to fall off (or both) depending which got reproced and I reapply CA dots at the last possible sec before the buffs drop, but if I do that I don't refresh again at 1sec left of CA

    My question is, is it worth it to severely clip DoTs just to maximise Procs or should I just let them roll and suffice to refreshing just before CA drops, whatever the buffs available ?

    tl;dr Maximum CA non proc optimised dots vs. Maximum proc + CA optimisation + CA clipping

  11. #1711
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    Because some napkin maths a few months ago said that the Lunar opener could be better in extremely high gear levels (577+). As usual the wannabe theorycrafters in the community did what they usually do and spread that information everywhere saying LUNAR IS BETTER NOW. In reality the Lunar opener can technically be better but it relies on getting enough SS procs to push through your first Eclipse fast enough to activate CA before your Trinket and Meta proc expire and then getting a second meta proc for your CA. Without those procs you're not going to have much fun because of how important the meta proc is for CA.

    You'll find a lot of the time the people saying Solar opener is bad are people who aren't doing it properly therefore aren't capitalizing on their trinket/meta procs (the people who blindly follow the guide and don't use mushrooms properly).
    Been saying this for months especially on fights where lust is used on the pull.... Outside of that you have to make a seperate bind for berserking rather than using this mongo CA+berserking macro... It's not rng, in fact starting in lunar is safer b/c first ca application is much higher chance to get bindings proc in it + all other ones. Even w/ mushrooms bindings procs late 20% of the time so this is kind of a safety to that.

    You can consistantly reach 20 energy w/o lust and 0 if you're lucky. W/ lust it's guaranteed to use all energy in 10sec.
    Last edited by Aboubacar; 2014-03-15 at 02:44 AM.

  12. #1712
    Quote Originally Posted by Fountaiin View Post
    I wouldn't hurricane at 4 or 5 targets unless it was crucial to the encounter. The small DPE over single target doesn't outweigh the NG loss imo.
    I know but she was asking specifically about AoE so I ignored the scenario were you just pick a long lasting single target. I didn't think anyone would take my advice for council fights with 4 targets and keep using Hurricane :P

  13. #1713
    Quote Originally Posted by Juvencus View Post
    Now that you have mentioned procs, I usually find myself refreshing CA dot quite early after the first application because either Meta or Totem proc is going to fall off. Basically when I would apply the first CA dots (solar opener) I will have all possible buffs up, Bindings+Totem+Meta+NG+Pot+Jade spirit, but around 5-6sec after either the Meta or the Totem is going to fall off (or both) depending which got reproced and I reapply CA dots at the last possible sec before the buffs drop, but if I do that I don't refresh again at 1sec left of CA

    My question is, is it worth it to severely clip DoTs just to maximise Procs or should I just let them roll and suffice to refreshing just before CA drops, whatever the buffs available ?

    tl;dr Maximum CA non proc optimised dots vs. Maximum proc + CA optimisation + CA clipping
    I don't think it's worth clipping them early in CA for procs. Considering your alternative for that GCD is going to be a ~800k Starfire however I haven't ever looked into it before.

    Quote Originally Posted by officerlahey View Post
    Been saying this for months especially on fights where lust is used on the pull.... Outside of that you have to make a seperate bind for berserking rather than using this mongo CA+berserking macro... It's not rng, in fact starting in lunar is safer b/c first ca application is much higher chance to get bindings proc in it + all other ones. Even w/ mushrooms bindings procs late 20% of the time so this is kind of a safety to that.

    You can consistantly reach 20 energy w/o lust and 0 if you're lucky. W/ lust it's guaranteed to use all energy in 10sec.
    The bigger issue with the Lunar opener is that you are restricted in places you can actually use it. The only fight I would even consider using it on (if it were better) would be Iron Juggernaut because every other fight has multiple targets you want to DoT in the start or has some other reason for the Solar opener being better.

  14. #1714
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    I don't think it's worth clipping them early in CA for procs. Considering your alternative for that GCD is going to be a ~800k Starfire however I haven't ever looked into it before.



    The bigger issue with the Lunar opener is that you are restricted in places you can actually use it. The only fight I would even consider using it on (if it were better) would be Iron Juggernaut because every other fight has multiple targets you want to DoT in the start or has some other reason for the Solar opener being better.
    On a lot of fights adds spawn pretty late into the pull as well. On malkorok you will end up popping ca as you are knocked up (if unlucky enough for this to occur) which is the same time the adds spawn. On Sha of Pride, If you get the gift of the titans on the pull, again, ca lines up better with this, and you will be just entering solar as the small adds spawn iirc. Can keep going on.. Garrosh wep etc.

    Additionally, staggering CA 10seconds into the pull has the added benefit of more starfall damage and less globals clipping dots (more spent on nuke casts and ss procs) during trinkets and cds etc.

    I simply challenge your statement that staggering CA is only more beneficial with good rng and would say that it's exactly the opposite. It protects against late (but not omg realllly late) bindings procs and if you're lucky enough to have 2-3 back to back totem procs on the pull there will be no wrath spam/uneclipsed starsurges during it. I think that you think maybe it's hard to reach 0 energy? Use berserking on the pull and that should solve it.
    (yes still procs late w/ shrooms on pull btw, not sure if others have this happen much? would say 10-20% of time doesnt proc on pull)
    Last edited by Aboubacar; 2014-03-15 at 06:06 AM.

  15. #1715
    Quote Originally Posted by officerlahey View Post
    I simply challenge your statement that staggering CA is only more beneficial with good rng and would say that it's exactly the opposite. It protects against late (but not omg realllly late) bindings procs and if you're lucky enough to have 2-3 back to back totem procs on the pull there will be no wrath spam/uneclipsed starsurges during it. I think that you think maybe it's hard to reach 0 energy? Use berserking on the pull and that should solve it.
    Your mistake is that you are greatly overvaluing the bindings proc. Sure you have Bindings up for CA, but that isn't the be all and end all of which opener is better. By using the Lunar opener you are more likely (still not guaranteed) to have Bindings up during CA but you have a MINUSCULE chance of Toxic Totem and Meta gem being up for it. Yes, using the Lunar opener gives you slightly more powerful DoTs and all your procs will be active for your DoT application in CA, but as has been known for a long time our DoT strength really is not that important (which is why we don't clip DoTs early in CA). The biggest portion of your opening damage is Starfire/Starsurge so the most important part of your opener is having a meta proc active for your first application of DoTs (which is what happens in the Solar opener, and why the Solar opener is recommended once you get your meta gem). This goes back to my statement that the people who don't like the Solar opener are the ones you aren't using their Mushrooms properly, because they are not getting meta up before applying DoTs.

    Quote Originally Posted by officerlahey View Post
    Additionally, staggering CA 10seconds into the pull has the added benefit of more starfall damage and less globals clipping dots
    I don't see how you get more Starfall damage, both openers have 3 Starfalls during Incarnation. I also don't understand your statement about DoT clipping. The Solar opener only applies DoTs at the start and end of CA. The Lunar opener is more wasteful in DoT clipping because it clips 2 globals worth of DoTs extremely early when you activate CA.
    Quote Originally Posted by officerlahey View Post
    On a lot of fights adds spawn pretty late into the pull as well.
    The main drawback of the Lunar opener is the fact that the time in Incarnation before CA is just as important to your opener as CA itself meaning it takes almost twice as long to complete your optimal opener, meaning more room to be forced to move by fight mechanics. Whereas with the Solar opener after CA ends you are just into your normal rotation.

    Immerseus: Solar Opener so you can get to fresh Lunar Eclipse as the adds stack up for Astral Storm
    Protectors: 3 targets on pull, Solar.
    Norushen: Solar if going down on pull. Lunar better if not going down on pull so you have CA active when adds start spawning.
    Sha: Solar better so you can get to fresh Eclipse as reflections spawn
    Galakras: 6 targets on pull, Solar.
    Juggernaut: Lunar disadvantaged slightly by ricochet knockups.
    Shamans: 4 targets on pull, Solar
    Nazgrim: Hurricane +Shroom damage on pull, Solar
    Malkorok: Lunar disadvantaged by knockups
    Spoils: Both work, which is best depends what side you are on
    Thok: Solar Opener because CA ends as first screech happens. Lunar opener forces you to UR early
    Siegecrafter: Lunar disadvantaged slightly by sawblades.
    Paragons: Both work
    Garrosh: Both work. Lunar weaker if you have to drop desecrate outside the raid or need to kill engineers.
    Last edited by Glurp; 2014-03-15 at 07:20 AM.

  16. #1716
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    Your mistake is that you are greatly overvaluing the bindings proc. Sure you have Bindings up for CA, but that isn't the be all and end all of which opener is better. By using the Lunar opener you are more likely (still not guaranteed) to have Bindings up during CA but you have a MINUSCULE chance of Toxic Totem and Meta gem being up for it. Yes, using the Lunar opener gives you slightly more powerful DoTs and all your procs will be active for your DoT application in CA, but as has been known for a long time our DoT strength really is not that important (which is why we don't clip DoTs early in CA). The biggest portion of your opening damage is Starfire/Starsurge so the most important part of your opener is having a meta proc active for your first application of DoTs (which is what happens in the Solar opener, and why the Solar opener is recommended once you get your meta gem). This goes back to my statement that the people who don't like the Solar opener are the ones you aren't using their Mushrooms properly, because they are not getting meta up before applying DoTs.


    I don't see how you get more Starfall damage, both openers have 3 Starfalls during Incarnation. I also don't understand your statement about DoT clipping. The Solar opener only applies DoTs at the start and end of CA. The Lunar opener is more wasteful in DoT clipping because it clips 2 globals worth of DoTs extremely early when you activate CA.

    The main drawback of the Lunar opener is the fact that the time in Incarnation before CA is just as important to your opener as CA itself meaning it takes almost twice as long to complete your optimal opener, meaning more room to be forced to move by fight mechanics. Whereas with the Solar opener after CA ends you are just into your normal rotation.

    Immerseus: Solar Opener so you can get to fresh Lunar Eclipse as the adds stack up for Astral Storm
    Protectors: 3 targets on pull, Solar.
    Norushen: Solar if going down on pull. Lunar better if not going down on pull so you have CA active when adds start spawning.
    Sha: Solar better so you can get to fresh Eclipse as reflections spawn
    Galakras: 6 targets on pull, Solar.
    Juggernaut: Lunar disadvantaged slightly by ricochet knockups.
    Shamans: 4 targets on pull, Solar
    Nazgrim: Hurricane +Shroom damage on pull, Solar
    Malkorok: Lunar disadvantaged by knockups
    Spoils: Both work, which is best depends what side you are on
    Thok: Solar Opener because CA ends as first screech happens. Lunar opener forces you to UR early
    Siegecrafter: Lunar disadvantaged slightly by sawblades.
    Paragons: Both work
    Garrosh: Both work. Lunar weaker if you have to drop desecrate outside the raid or need to kill engineers.
    Start with each encounter I guess...
    -Using astral storm instead of hurricane on immerseus? lol
    -obviously protectors/council fights are better to use CA on pull, no arguements
    -I just explained exactly why starting in lunar and staggering the CA use for the last second of berserking/meta/totem etc is better... because this application lines up with the first gift buffs and you are entering solar or have been in solar for a few seconds once adds spawn
    -Thok is completely wrong - you want to aura mastery early anyway so it's up to hurricane bats (after dotted all of them), but I'd open w/ CA so it's up for bats in case there is an early push.
    -Idk what you don't understand about Malkorok, 10sec in the adds spawn, you get knocked up pop CA, dot the boss, dot an add maybe thats far out

    Typically this whole cd usage argument is arbitrary atm because starsurge crit % and totem procs will be the main factor in your damage, but on some encounters, especially Immerseus and Sha you're losing a ton of damage just by using cds sub-optimally.

    I don't see how you get more Starfall damage, both openers have 3 Starfalls during Incarnation. I also don't understand your statement about DoT clipping. The Solar opener only applies DoTs at the start and end of CA. The Lunar opener is more wasteful in DoT clipping because it clips 2 globals worth of DoTs extremely early when you activate CA.
    because when you open in lunar and stagger CA all of the starfall damage is buffed by eclipse.
    Uh... So you are applying at start of fight then at last second of CA? Going to get a lot less dot damage that way anyway.
    Inital eclipsed MF and uneclipsed SF should have all procs + berserking and initial CA dot will have everything as well. Then typically apply again last second of CA - depends on if a lot of crit extensions i suppose.

  17. #1717
    Quote Originally Posted by officerlahey View Post
    -Using astral storm instead of hurricane on immerseus? lol
    With the Lunar opener you're going to be exiting CA as the adds group up so you'll be using Astral storm regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by officerlahey View Post
    -I just explained exactly why starting in lunar and staggering the CA use for the last second of berserking/meta/totem etc is better... because this application lines up with the first gift buffs and you are entering solar or have been in solar for a few seconds once adds spawn
    Implies you are going to get the the Gift buff. Also every time I tried the Lunar opener on Sha I exit Solar when the reflections spawn.
    Last edited by Glurp; 2014-03-15 at 08:00 AM.

  18. #1718
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    With the Lunar opener you're going to be exiting CA as the adds group up so you'll be using Astral storm regardless.


    Implies you are going to get the the Gift buff. Also every time I tried the Lunar opener on Sha I exit Solar when the reflections spawn.
    so you're going for boss damage on immerseus, fair enough (using cds on the boss i guess) The first wave of adds on sha is only like 4-5? detonate shrooms and they die. Opening in solar would have to be vastly superior single target to justify not maximizing gift uptime w/ CA if you were to get the buff. Since the 2 are arguably equal, I'd rather do more if by chance I do get the first gift.

  19. #1719
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    I don't think it's worth clipping them early in CA for procs. Considering your alternative for that GCD is going to be a ~800k Starfire however I haven't ever looked into it before.
    Thing is that if I don't clip for nearly-dropped procs during CA, I will have to clip the last CA dot application in the next Inc+Lunar phase because more than often I get massive amounts of SS procs that burn through that Lunar so I have to clip them to get the last Inc dots up or else they would drop until the next Solar.

    It's one of those situations that I need someone to calculate the costs and benefits of early clipping vs. maximum procs, because I suck at math... >.>

    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post

    Immerseus: Solar Opener so you can get to fresh Lunar Eclipse as the adds stack up for Astral Storm
    Protectors: 3 targets on pull, Solar.
    Norushen: Solar if going down on pull. Lunar better if not going down on pull so you have CA active when adds start spawning.
    Sha: Solar better so you can get to fresh Eclipse as reflections spawn
    Galakras: 6 targets on pull, Solar.
    Juggernaut: Lunar disadvantaged slightly by ricochet knockups.
    Shamans: 4 targets on pull, Solar
    Nazgrim: Hurricane +Shroom damage on pull, Solar
    Malkorok: Lunar disadvantaged by knockups
    Spoils: Both work, which is best depends what side you are on
    Thok: Solar Opener because CA ends as first screech happens. Lunar opener forces you to UR early
    Siegecrafter: Lunar disadvantaged slightly by sawblades.
    Paragons: Both work
    Garrosh: Both work. Lunar weaker if you have to drop desecrate outside the raid or need to kill engineers.
    In my eyes, any fight that has the potential to make you move at the start (or your guild's tacts make you move), devalues the L.O (Lunar Opener) simply because you stop energy generation and procs are more than likely to fall off before CA. I only consistently use L.O on Norushen because I'm never first and the delay of CA coincides with adds spawning.

  20. #1720
    Quote Originally Posted by officerlahey View Post
    Start with each encounter I guess...
    -Thok is completely wrong - you want to aura mastery early anyway so it's up to hurricane bats (after dotted all of them), but I'd open w/ CA so it's up for bats in case there is an early push.
    - because when you open in lunar and stagger CA all of the starfall damage is buffed by eclipse.
    Erhm, no? Thok In my opinon after you´ve dotted all the adds you´re wasting litteraly 10-12sec of starsurge spamm compared to hurricane, I would dot all adds, machingun them down, find my dps increasing by 40-50k on that point compared to hurricane which increases my dps by 25-30k. The Starsurge wasted is just retarded if you do that and seeing as starsurge is our hardest hitting spell I´d spamm that.
    - Not sure what you mean by starfall not getting buffed by eclipse.. erhm only the first 1-3 sec of it will not be buffed for both solar AND lunar opener and that would be the pre-pull starfall. Solar you prepull starfall (this one dosen´t get eclipsed buffed), then Starsurge, INC+CA , Moonfire, Starfire nukes/starsurges, Starfall<-- This one gets buffed by lunar due to CA, re-fresh moonfire, go to lunar, Starfall again<--- This one gets buffed by lunar too.
    Lunar opener Starfall pre-pull <-- This one dosent get buffed by lunar, starfall during lunar<-- This one gets buffed by lunar, starfall during CA <-- This one gets buffed lunar.

    And honestly I used to change opener based on how the fight mechanics were at the start of the fight, but now I just find that I am leaving the eclipse I want to be inn at the correct time due to starsurge procs, so I guess it´s personal perfernce and how lucky you are with starsurge procs :<
    Correct me if I am wrong.

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