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  1. #1

    Question Do you think Bioware's MMO inexperience will show?

    Before I start - disclaimer: I am not here to bash Bioware, or SWTOR, I have my copy preordered and will be playing. Just want to have a discussion about this.

    Basically, from the research I have done, there are some things that worry me and I just wonder if anyone else has worries too.

    1. server only PVP.
    This is a great idea in theory, creating real pvp relationships with both your allies and enemies on your server. However, anyone who has sat in a WoW pvp queue for 30 minutes at a time, knows it is no fun, particularly if it stops you from doing other things. Any server imbalances with factions will compound the problem, as will low population realms. Also anyone who has tried to queue in WoW at night, will also know that often it takes 2 hours for games to pop, and that is with the huge population and cross realm matching that they have. Bioware have stated that they will be keeping a close eye on this, and will also have bolstering and same faction hutball to help alleviate this problem.


    2. People ninjaing items to gear their companions.
    Since you gear your companions up, this is a real possibility. We saw it with offspec ninjaing in WoW, and selfish players may try to take any item that is vaguely useful to their companions. With 4 companions to gear up you will need a fair amount of gear for them, and I imagine pretty much every item will be useful to a companion in some way. I have not seen any info on class specific rolling or 'main spec priority' being built into the game.


    3. A wow-like pigeonholing of progression content.
    This is my biggest fear really, that we will be forced to run the same raid every week, for months on end, then everything becomes obscelete when the new content is released. This is pretty much the main reason I quit WoW personally. I like having choices and variety when I play, with lots of content to explore, not to repeat the same thing every week for months. It is my sincere hope that we will have lots of endgame content and not 3 raid tiers in an entire expansion. I understand that rushed out content is a bad thing of course, but the long development time for this game and the 'wow-model' being considered acceptable by most people does worry me a bit. I personally think that blizzard should have had more teams working on raid content to give players more to do at endgame, and I hope SWTOR doesnt end up the same way.


    4. Lack of challenging 4 man content.
    To keep players interested we will need to have things to do outside of raidtimes. From what I hear we will have only 4-5 flashpoints at release. If these arent sufficiently challenging, or regularly released I fear that the pve could be confined to raidtime only, as we see in wow. Add to this that a gear progression style means that content becomes obscelete means a lot of faceroll content, or the need for constant new content to be released. I have heard nothing of any scaling being used, or different difficulty levels (for example DDO dungeons have 4 or 5 difficulties each, and there are hundreds of them).


    5. Large disparity between roles and specs.
    The choice to use 4 man groups, and I assume, the need to have a mandatory tank and healer, is going to cause problems. Compare this to how many people dont like to play these 'utility' roles and the vast amount of DPS specs. lets take a quick look at the numbers.

    4man content: 25% tank 25% healer 50% dps
    8man content: 25% tank (assuming 2) 25% healer (assuming 2) and 50% dps (assuming 4)
    16man content: unsure how many tanks/healers will be used in this content.

    specs (24 in total): 12.5 % tanking (3) 12.5% healing (3) 75% DPS (18)

    I am suprised in the descision to go with 4 man groups if they require both a tank or healer, as a huge premium is put on these roles. I would prefer to see a system similar to DDO where group compositions are not set in stone. Tanks and healers exist in that game, but for most regular content they are not mandatory. I personally would prefer either 6 man groups or the need for only one of these roles being mandatory in a 4 man group (eg. a healer is needed to heal 3 dps, but a tank can sufficiently deal with the damage to allow for minimal healing in 4 man content)

    6. 2 faction system.
    A small personal preference here but when it comes to PVP, 3 factions is a far more interesting system than 2. However star wars lore (not my strong point admittadely) seems to force this though. I cant really blame Bioware for this descision I would have just like to see something a bit more innovative than the standard 2 faction systems we see in so many MMOs. Thankfully GW2 will have this in their WvWvW system so that should satisfy my desire for 3 sided PVP.


    7. PVP specific gear. or gear driven content in particular.
    Another personal gripe of mine, is the gear = win system. It remains to be seen how this will play out in SWTOR. Many factors will impact this: will players need PVP gear to compete; will this gear take a long time to aquire; and will skill or gear be the deciding factor in fights. There is nothing worse that wanting to pvp but thinking you will have to get owned for 2 weeks just to get gear. Again GW2 should satisfy my preferences here, but I am worried about this in SWTOR.


    I would like to hear if you have any opinions on any of my points, or have worries of your own.

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  2. #2
    Epic! Iceleaf's Avatar
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    There is few things I'm worried too, yes.
    I will most likely be patient and allow them to sort out most stuff. Also ninjas most likely wont be that big of problem as dungeons are not run cross-realm at start at least and I will run them with guildies.

    There will be difference between 7-year experience blizz and bioware. Gladly bioware already has experience on lot of RPG games. Blizzard was RTS dev before wow anyway (well with Diablo).
    However making and balancing MMO is hardly secret art like it kinda was back in days when wow launched so thats def bonus because they can study how other mmo's do it and see does it work or not for them. Heck, EA might help out telling what went wrong with warhammer and what worked (dont they have some people from that team working with them too?)

    Also I have heard that gear isnt that big of deal compared to skills and how you use the "spells". Of course its not going to be like "I got leveling gear and I beat raider gear in duels" or something but you know.

    Also reminder: You can bring one companion to flashpoints so you can 3+1man it or try to 2+1 it with friend if you think you either overgear or overlevel it. I think this helps little on the flashpoint balance.
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  3. #3
    These are my opinions on your posts, im not saying they are wrong, just what I think

    1. This the best possible move, build up the server community first, then allow cross server pvp later on

    2. People needing items is always going to happen, you are guessing there is no priorty here, yes could be an issue we are guessing at the moment.

    3. When using the 'wow model' pvp and raids are endgame content, they have stated that there will be a proper hard mode, world pvp, solo content, LOADS of end game content, if you are not happy with this then maybe you weren't meant to play mmorpgs.

    4. Where on earth are you reading that the only other endgame content other than raids are 4 mans???????? Theres loads of other stuff

    5. I have heard than you can run flashpoints (normals) without a tank and a healer, however you give some one an easy option (using a tank and a healer) they will always take, I think you are saying the 'wow model' is not what you want, that is the model they chose.

    6. Starwars universe, Jedi vs Sith

    7. Again are you just guessing?????? They have already stated gear will give you no more than a 20% bonus (from memory) from min gear to max gear, so even less if you at least have some gear.

    This very much sounds like you are just bashing the system they are using, most point of you 'problems' with the game is the system they have choosen to use and then said 'GW2 isnt using this system', I am glad they are not who would want 2 games coming out at the same time with the same systems?
    Last edited by Tomhvk; 2011-09-29 at 11:12 AM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceleaf View Post
    Also reminder: You can bring one companion to flashpoints so you can 3+1man it or try to 2+1 it with friend if you think you either overgear or overlevel it. I think this helps little on the flashpoint balance.
    Sorry to say but companions are not allowed in end game flashpoints or operations.

  5. #5
    This really sounds like a "these are the things in GW2, why isn't SW:TOR like this?" post.

    1) Server only PvP and long queues is solved by having 1 bracket that has all 1-50 people instead of like WoW where you have several brackets. Servers with low populations (which is something I don't think they'll have to worry about at release) need to be merged with other servers to help the population, hopefully Bioware will be proactive about this.

    2) People are dicks, you can't change this. It might not be that bad as it won't be cross-server queuing so people might be a bit more respectful than they would be in a cross-server instant dungeon. If it really did become a big problem, then I'm sure Bioware will handle it.

    3) This is the only point where I agree with you. Hopefully there will be more to endgame than just raiding. And no, I'm not talking about "well you can do your heroic quests", because really, that'll last a day.

    4) See my #5 answer for more indepth on this "challenging 4man content" point. Firstly, all flashpoints will have a max level "heroic" equivalent, so it will definitely be more than 4-5, plus there are apparently several flashpoints that are only level 50.

    And this is my opinion, but flashpoints shouldn't be something that should be current all throughout the expansion. Yes, there should be things to do outside of raid times, but it shouldn't always have to be flashpoints. Hell, why would you even run a flashpoint if you're already at the point of raiding? Raiding gear is better than flashpoint gear, the only reason people run 5mans in WoW (raiding people) is because you have to do your daily dungeon bullshit for your Valor Points, which is bad design and hopefully Bioware doesn't follow this.

    PvErs shouldn't be confined to thinking that the only thing to do in the game is raids and instances. There will be other aspects of the game to do at max level, not just the same instances over and over again. This game won't be a city-shaped waiting room where you pop in and out of 5 mans 10 times a day like WoW.

    5) Your number 4 and your number 5 contradict each other. First you say that you want challenging 4man content, then you say that you wish that tanks and healers weren't required in 4mans. I'm not really sure you know what you want. The game isn't designed the same way GW2 where you have to dodge and keep yourself alive. The game is designed with the "trinity system" (I hate that phrase but it fits) in mind. If you have a game with the trinity system in mind and you don't USE the trinity system, then content cannot possibly be challenging, because dps have no way to dodge and keep themselves alive through rough encounters. Normal flashpoints up to level 30 don't really require tanks and healers anyway, and devs have admitted that this is because leveling flashpoints aren't supposed to be difficult.

    If you have a game with the trinity system, you need to use it. If you don't use the trinity system in a game designed with it, then it won't be challenging content. 4man content cannot be challenging without the tank and healer being used.

    6) Yes, not your strong point. Is Star Wars, what do you want? Jedi, Sith, and the Hutt?

    7) This is inevitable in games like SW:TOR and WoW. When there is raiding progression and tiers, then PvP gear will have to follow suit, or else PvE gear will quickly outmatch PvP gear. It's just the way it is. And no, it's not gear = win. Yes of course a person in full PvP epics will kill someone in PvE blues, but what else do you expect? This isn't GW2, there has to be gear progression if there is to be raiding progression, or else there would be no artificial gear blocking for every tier and tiers would fall over as soon as they're released. There is a reason that GW2 doesn't have progression raiding, you know. Without progression raiding there doesn't have to be a gear up system, but with it, there has to be.

    Besides, it can't be that hard to gear up, just PvP. Stop whining when you lose a BG, something that so many WoW players do. When people are of equal gear, then skill will come into play.

    ---------- Post added 2011-09-29 at 07:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lillpapps View Post
    Sorry to say but companions are not allowed in end game flashpoints or operations.
    I'm pretty sure that companions are allowed in 4man flashpoints.
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  6. #6
    Epic! Iceleaf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillpapps View Post
    Sorry to say but companions are not allowed in end game flashpoints or operations.
    I never said operations, that would be silly too. Tho I didnt know about not allowing them on end-game flashpoints, since I heard only that you might be able to use companion and 2-3 friends at start but "you might not be able to do it at the end"(as in "you cant 2+1man this place")

    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    This really sounds like a "these are the things in GW2, why isn't SW:TOR like this?" post.
    Got the same feeling from this really
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    Well, I don’t see why women are being blamed if man is stupid enough to really think they have red and gold eyelids.

  7. #7
    Come vizzle number 3, HUTTTTTTTBALLLLLLLL, but yeh it will be interesting to see what else endgame brings than raiding

  8. #8
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    swtor[dot]com/community/showthread.php?t=277544

    Companions currently not allowed in flashpoints and raids

  9. #9
    People have only been comparing TOR to WoW, when this is a problem, the TOR community is meant to be based on the old SWG community, where griefers, ninjas and the overall asshole (excuse my language but they are quite annoying) to normal person ratio were at a far lower count, what im saying is that if it is based on the old SWG principles, there will be a much better server experience for everyone, without constant unnecessary grievances.

    However, I do agree that server-only PvP groupings may cause a problem in the long run, as queue times may be too long, but on a PvP server it probably wont be noticable, and with Huttball you can play against your own faction, so it shouldn't really be a problem.

    Also, i believe that gear should be worked for, and should help you have an edge if you put the time into your character, as a result, if you do PvP or PvE alot, have dedicated time into doing it, you deserve the gear and the edge over other people that have put less time into their character and vice versa, but that brings up the casual v hardcore argument. Personally I enjoy working towards getting better gear or recognition, and its something I think all serious players should strive for.
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  10. #10
    I would like to clarify that this certainly was not meant to be a GW2 is better post, I was just drawing some comparisons. I also compared DDO and WoW

    I should also clarify that I have found it hard to fault the design of GW2 from what I have heard, but SWTOR leaves me with more questions and worries. The main reason for this is that I dont like many of the design descisions in WoW, so it does worry me slightly if a game draws too much influence from it.

    I am also not trying to force these opinions on anybody, they are just my thoughts 3 months from release. I am happy if people disagree or clarify things for me, it is a discussion forum after all
    Last edited by harkonen; 2011-09-29 at 11:28 AM.

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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Lillpapps View Post
    swtor[dot]com/community/showthread.php?t=277544
    You linked a post from last March, 7 months ago.

    Let me link a post from April, after your post.

    http://asia.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/star...d=m-1-58710399

    "Companions back in Flashpoints."

    ---------- Post added 2011-09-29 at 07:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Deltawolf View Post
    People have only been comparing TOR to WoW, when this is a problem, the TOR community is meant to be based on the old SWG community, where griefers, ninjas and the overall asshole (excuse my language but they are quite annoying) to normal person ratio were at a far lower count, what im saying is that if it is based on the old SWG principles, there will be a much better server experience for everyone, without constant unnecessary grievances.
    I don't think so. The pre-order population of TOR is already more than 10x what SWGs population ever was. SWG never got very popular because it was too niche, and TOR has already shown that they aren't following SWG at all, but they are very similar in many ways to WoW. So the TOR community isn't expected to be from the SWG community, It's more WoW than any other community.
    Last edited by vizzle; 2011-09-29 at 11:57 AM.
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  12. #12
    Another thing regarding PvP... I believe they've said that there is same faction PvP in the battlegrounds, etc. That combined with all levels PvPing against each other will help with queue times.

  13. #13
    Do I think their inexperienced? Yes.

    However, unlike blizzard I think their learning curve into the MMO market will be shorter.

    BW has made some amazing games that could be borderline MMO games and with so many MMO games on the market to learn from, I'm sure they have done their research on what players like and what they don't.

    I'll give Bioware the same latitude I gave blizzard in the beginning. Time and patience.

    Somethings were missing and blizzard eventually got them in. Somethings didn't work and blizzard changed them or took them out.

    I'll give Bioware the latitude to make adjustments and changes. They will get my money and I hope they do smarter things with it when this game is 6+ years old.

  14. #14
    The Lightbringer vian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quras View Post
    Do I think their inexperienced? Yes.

    However, unlike blizzard I think their learning curve into the MMO market will be shorter.

    BW has made some amazing games that could be borderline MMO games and with so many MMO games on the market to learn from, I'm sure they have done their research on what players like and what they don't.

    I'll give Bioware the same latitude I gave blizzard in the beginning. Time and patience.

    Somethings were missing and blizzard eventually got them in. Somethings didn't work and blizzard changed them or took them out.

    I'll give Bioware the latitude to make adjustments and changes. They will get my money and I hope they do smarter things with it when this game is 6+ years old.
    You summed it up for me man, thanks.
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  15. #15
    Dont forget they have Mythic people helping them out on a few things, thats plenty enough experience for me.

  16. #16
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    While some people at Bioware are clearly new to MMO's I am pretty sure they have people who know MMO's in and out. With the amount of time they have spent making this game, and the amount of $$$$ I do not see them having any real issues.

  17. #17
    Are they inexpirienced? Probably but they already stated they they are getting inspiration from other games(WoW was mentioned with operations/flashpoints). Also Mythic have quite a lot of expirience from WHO and DAOC

    1 - Nothing to worry about, there wont be any brackets and you could play PVP since lvl 10 and your stats will be boosted to stats that lvl 50 have. You won't get skills, nor talent like lvl 50 but stat wise you will be the same as anyone.

    2 - You probably didn't noticed yet but there won't drop any equipable items in operations and flashpoints. When you will beat down a boss you will be rewarded with bag that contains items desingned for your class and spec and when you deplete all items that your class can use you will be given "special currency" which you can use to buy other stuff such as different armor looks and companion gear

  18. #18
    The Lightbringer jvbastel's Avatar
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    1. server only PVP.
    I agree on this one, but I'll see how it works out. server-only pvp will probably not last long, even if there's a 1-50 bracket.
    Unless servers are a lot bigger than wow's of course.

    2. People ninjaing items to gear their companions.
    The badge system will help out a bit, but ninja looters will always be there. I don't really care about em that much.

    3. A wow-like pigeonholing of progression content.
    I agree on this one. It sucks that MMO's lose as much content as they gain every patch, it's an awful design, and should be a thing of the past, really. dear Blizzard/BW/every MMO developer out there, SCALE YOUR RAIDS. That is all...

    4. Lack of challenging 4 man content.
    5 Dungeons with hc mode should be enough, if they have more stuff to do (which theme park MMO's usually lack). It's something I'm worried about as well. I get the feeling BW is trying to get people to level lots of alts, while that might mean a little less content per character.

    5. Large disparity between roles and specs.
    There will always be a lack of non-dps in "trinity games"

    6. 2 faction system.
    Agreed on the 3 faction system, but well, it's SW, no choice they have.

    7. PVP specific gear. or gear driven content in particular.
    gear differences in pvp is enough to make me not play pvp in a MMO game usually
    I don't mind pve gear progression though, it's necessary for sub based games to have a carrot.


    As for the topic title, I think BW's inexperience has already shown at some points, they've made some rather big PR mistakes (start of the pre-order was VERY messy for example), but I won't judge until I've played the game for a while
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    I don't think so. The pre-order population of TOR is already more than 10x what SWGs population ever was. SWG never got very popular because it was too niche, and TOR has already shown that they aren't following SWG at all, but they are very similar in many ways to WoW. So the TOR community isn't expected to be from the SWG community, It's more WoW than any other community.
    First of all, the numbers of subs on release of SWG was around 280,000, and bioware have announced they are "hoping to have at least 1 million subscribers by the end of year 1" thats not on release so realisticly they are looking at about 600,000+ (depending on exposure to media) subs on day of release, so thats more like 3 times, but thats beside the point.

    I still play SWG on starsider and I have got the impression that a fair few of the players from there are coming over to TOR after it gets shut down, this will bring a fairly large playbase of that community over to TOR, bringing along the positive and helpful attitudes that the SWG community has thrived on, while i agree that there will also be players from other mmo's coming onto TOR (like WoW/Aion/Rift etc) theres gonig to be alot of mixed MMO cultures in TOR.

    Yes i agree that they have "followed" WoW in terms of mechanics and UI, but they are also not trying to encourage the selfish and egotistical behaviour that has been plaguing WoW the last few years, as a result of greed and the amount of 10 year olds on the game.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by harkonen View Post
    SNIP
    1. I despise cross server anything, it absolutely ruins community and causes people to use the "internet anonymous" idea to be complete fucking douchebags since there is no ramifications for ruining your name x server.

    Your WoW example of 2 hours doesn't work here because of the matchmaking system. Wow brackets consist of 5 levels if you are on at an off hour there may not be ~ 20 people in that bracket who are queued. ToR doesnt have level restricted brackets they will try to match by near levels and if not it will pull in all levels and boost players to equal ground for the warzone. ToR even has 1 warzone with same faction PvP (Huttball). So in this sense I would guess that at off hours you are MORE likely to get into a game in ToR.

    2. With or without companions people are going to roll on shit they shouldn't, once again avoid cross server bullshit and a player who ninja rolls "Need" on items for their companion will get a shitty rep and left out by other decent people. This happened in WoW in BC when people would roll Need against someone else because "I need for my alt". Once again community will cause this to decrease.

    3. Raids and raiding have been like this forever, ToR will probably have this, why? Because an extremely large % of people who enjoy raiding like this structure. ToR will hopefully have some other max level twists for players to do besides, dailies, 4 mans, raids, PvP. But at launch, im happy they even have any end game content.

    4&5- Like someone said you contradict yourself. This isn't GW2, if you don't like waiting in the queue for the tank or healer to join I got an idea for you. Meet people, talk to people, join a guild, develop a solid friends list. By the time you get to 50 you should have played with at least 5 tanks and 5 healers, friends them. Use global channels to form your own group, blacklist people who are douches.

    People don't like the "OMG Tank gets instant queues WTF!" Its supply and demand, and for some reason (I'm a tank i dont get it) a large % of MMOers dont like tanking, maybe its the pressure or something. Find a few tank friends and ask them to group.

    6. This isn't DAOC, 3 factions don't work with the story. Possibly in some future expansion they could introduce a 3rd faction into the game kind of like EQ2 did, Outcasts or something, I dont remember but they would be neither republic or empire and would be harder to do certain things.

    7. The gear difference wont be that huge, I believe the biggest difference in disparity will be 10%. Although I think there should be a gearing time period. When you hit max level you should not be on equal footing with someone who has been there for 2 months already and you should have to "take your licks".
    Hopefully the 10% they promise makes this work, disparity that exists such as in Rift is terrible.

    They have mythic people working on PvP, Warhammers pvp was good so i have confidence in the team on ToR to do a good job. A pvp ranking system at max level would help this out alot if it were done right. Not as in Rift where a Rank 6 gets into a match with a Rank 1 and its god mode basically.

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