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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Deltawolf View Post
    First of all, the numbers of subs on release of SWG was around 280,000, and bioware have announced they are "hoping to have at least 1 million subscribers by the end of year 1" thats not on release so realisticly they are looking at about 600,000+ (depending on exposure to media) subs on day of release, so thats more like 3 times, but thats beside the point.

    I still play SWG on starsider and I have got the impression that a fair few of the players from there are coming over to TOR after it gets shut down, this will bring a fairly large playbase of that community over to TOR, bringing along the positive and helpful attitudes that the SWG community has thrived on, while i agree that there will also be players from other mmo's coming onto TOR (like WoW/Aion/Rift etc) theres gonig to be alot of mixed MMO cultures in TOR.

    Yes i agree that they have "followed" WoW in terms of mechanics and UI, but they are also not trying to encourage the selfish and egotistical behaviour that has been plaguing WoW the last few years, as a result of greed and the amount of 10 year olds on the game.
    FYI: bricks and mortar pre-release sales (so no online retailers like Amazon or the digital download) for America alone are already almost 500,000. 1 million subs at release looks not only possible, but likely.

  2. #22
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by ptwonline View Post
    FYI: bricks and mortar pre-release sales (so no online retailers like Amazon or the digital download) for America alone are already almost 500,000. 1 million subs at release looks not only possible, but likely.
    I know a large large number of people who have not pre-ordered yet and will probably buy the game in the first couple weeks of release.

    Once the game comes out people who were totally oblivious will go and buy it. Once the news circulates through WoWs trade chat......

  4. #24
    Thanks for your replies guys its interesting to read your opinions on these things.

    on the subject of points 4&5, I dont believe I am contradicting myself. Is it wrong to desire challenging content and grouping mechanics that reflect the playerbase, or allow for some flexibility? My point is really by choosing to make this content 4 man (compared to 5 in WoW and 6 in DDO) it actually makes the problem worse, as you need more tanks and healers for every dps in the queue.

    And to say find a guild or find some tank friends, is pretty short sighted. I am thinking for the entire community here, not just myself. If I am playing with a friend who tanks, it doesnt magically create an extra tank, it just means the queue is longer for someone else. If you must know I will be playing with a friend who always tanks in every game and I will be playing a healer, so the point wasnt really about me, but just a general mechanic.

    If you take DDO for example, its not balanced by any means, sometimes you have very smooth and easy runs, other times its very difficult. This kind of adds to the depth of the game. It is somewhat reliant on healers too, generally speaking you need a dedicated healer, or 2 off healers, or to burn money with pots, scrolls and wands. Its not a perfect system either, but it does add a lot of flexibility, and different game experiences as a result.

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  5. #25
    1. server only PVP.
    I'm ok with this to start. Plus you can play huttball vs your own faction so queues shouldn't be too long if faction imbalance is an issue.


    2. People ninjaing items to gear their companions.
    Aren't loot containers confirmed for Flashpoints? No ninja'ing you get your stuff, they get theirs. And for operations I'd hope you trust your master looter if there are not loot containers in there, if not don't run with em.


    3. A wow-like pigeonholing of progression content.
    Valid concern, and probably my biggest worry too. I'd like to see something mroe like ffxi's endgame with several different options available for groups of all sizes and people ranging from casual to hardcore.


    4. Lack of challenging 4 man content.
    Challenging doesn't need to mean time consuming. I don't want this to turn into running heroics 2 weeks after cata launch where everyone in a pug was miserable. As long as there's other content to do I'm ok with 4man stuff being a bit easier.


    5. Large disparity between roles and specs.
    As someone planning to roll dps I'm a bit concerned about this as well. I would have preferred 6 man groups, but we'll see how things go.

    6. 2 faction system.
    It's star wars, Sith vs Jedi makes the most sense. You could force extra crap in there, but it wouldn't mean as much to fans and would probably break away from lore pretty hard


    7. PVP specific gear. or gear driven content in particular.
    MMO's are largely gear driven. Why kill this guy? because he drops sword of awesomeness +1000. Yes fights are cool and all but they lose their initial "zomg this is cool" appeal after doing them a few times. If there isn't a substantial way to progress, or something to aim for then people stop logging on.

  6. #26
    Maybe the inexperience will show at first but they are a good company so I think issues will be cleaned up quickly, as long as there is no change in production (ala KOTOR 2). That being said, they also don't have the MMO resources Blizzard has so it might take a bit to get in full swing.

    It couldn't be worse then Blizzards conceited-ness and arrogance though. They do shitty work and hand it to us like its a blessing (i.e. the recent worgen horses). Blizzard has such a monopoly right now it dosn't matter how bad their work is there are always millions of fools who praise crap as if its gold.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by VenomousCarnage View Post
    It couldn't be worse then Blizzards conceited-ness and arrogance though. They do shitty work and hand it to us like its a blessing (i.e. the recent worgen horses). Blizzard has such a monopoly right now it dosn't matter how bad their work is there are always millions of fools who praise crap as if its gold.
    I strongly disagree, try playing some other MMO's, which are a LOT worse when it comes to added content/features, except maybe for rift.
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  8. #28
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    1. server only PVP.
    I think they'll eventually allow cross server PvP if they want to take the game in that direction. It would be stupid not to.

    2. People ninjaing items to gear their companions.
    Unfortunately we'll have to hope the community is going to be decent enough to pass if BW doesn't implement a system for this.
    What would be cool, although a bit complicated, would be this:

    Need or Greed
    Companion Need or Companion Greed

    Gear won with Need or Greed cannot be used on a companion for a set amount of time after it is obtained (say, a month) or can't be used on a companion. (Which would be silly, but still a possible solution)
    Gear won with Companion Need or Companion Greed can be used immediately for your companion. (And yourself if you want)

    Normal Need/Greed would obviously have priority over C. Need/Greed. Just an idea don't flame me


    3. A wow-like pigeonholing of progression content.
    I think that this might be avoidable for a while, but once BW starts running out of ideas they'll start falling into the trap that WoW did.

    4. Lack of challenging 4 man content.
    BW has stated that they are working on "Heroic" flashpoints so you can revisit low level flashpoints at endgame.


    Don't really have something to say about the other points. I do think however BW's inexperience might show for the first few months but will be sorted out quickly.

  9. #29
    I'm sure this has already been said but it's not like Blizzard had mmo experience when they made WoW. besides they hired experienced developers that worked on Warhammer among other games

  10. #30
    Games don't always need to "revolutionize" the MMO model. WoW didn't do it; it just made MMOs easier and more accessible. TOR is making MMOs move closer to single player RPGs, and focus on story telling rather than, say, loot. Neither game is a significant change from the Everquest-inspired model that's been around for years.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by VenomousCarnage View Post
    Maybe the inexperience will show at first but they are a good company so I think issues will be cleaned up quickly, as long as there is no change in production (ala KOTOR 2). That being said, they also don't have the MMO resources Blizzard has so it might take a bit to get in full swing.

    It couldn't be worse then Blizzards conceited-ness and arrogance though. They do shitty work and hand it to us like its a blessing (i.e. the recent worgen horses). Blizzard has such a monopoly right now it dosn't matter how bad their work is there are always millions of fools who praise crap as if its gold.
    I agree with the previous post, try playing some other MMOs man. Blizzard will look like gods compared to the shoddy work of other companies

  12. #32
    They have learned stuff throw testing, they have experienced people in the team. But of course... if even blizzard makes wrong decisions why shouldn't bioware too?! The good thing is, they can change stuff.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by jvbastel View Post
    I strongly disagree, try playing some other MMO's, which are a LOT worse when it comes to added content/features, except maybe for rift.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarasthura View Post
    I agree with the previous post, try playing some other MMOs man. Blizzard will look like gods compared to the shoddy work of other companies
    Agree to disagree I guess. I see no effort put into making the game for the customers, just minimal amount of work to string along fans.

    Like I said the worgen horse example is perfect, people said right off the bat Running wild would create a mount imbalance but Blizzard plowed on with that one idea closed thier ears and said "LA LA LA LA LA I can't hear you our idea is perfect and masterful LA LA LA" then almost a year later they go "We blizzard serve you and have listened to your wants/needs, here's some shitty horses to shut you up" and fans everywhere rejoiced despite it taking them a year to implement yet more horses that were already in the game.

    Relatively with the money and activity they have, Blizzard should do a lot more then they do. Instead they slap together pets and sell them ridiculously over value (I could afford them, don't make me explain the difference between price and value) then horde money while people scream for more crap.

    IF the dance studio ever comes out I can guarantee it won't be worth the ridiculous wait they have shuffled out of the public eye. The company relies too much on misdirection, vague explanations and underhanded tactics. I hope Biowares customer service will put them to shame, it won't be hard.

  14. #34
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    For many of the concerns I've heard brought up in relation to this being BioWare's first MMO, I can think of a response that should qualm most of those. BioWare as a company has never created an MMO before, but they aren't stupid. They brought in people who have created MMOs before and are listening to them. From the various developer blogs, documentaries, etc, it is clear that they've already learned a lot. Will there be issues? Of course. This game is very different from other games in many ways. Do I have confidence in the people they've brought in and BioWare's own innate abilities? Absolutely.

    1. server only PVP.

    While I can see why you're concerned, the fact that they do have huttball available as same faction pvp should help this out, as you've stated. But it also tells me that they are aware this will likely be an issue. It wouldn't surprise me if they had more up their sleeves to alleviate the issue as they haven't released all the information there is to release on this game yet.


    2. People ninjaing items to gear their companions.

    This could be an issue, yes. But I believe they've stated looting is going to be a bit different in raid situations. Every player is going to be getting a loot bag of sorts after killing a boss. Each bag has a chance of getting you some pretty good gear. If this system translates to other parts of the game, say flashpoints (instances), I don't know. It seems like they are already considering this issue as well.


    3. A wow-like pigeonholing of progression content.

    Yes, I could see this as being an issue. But my limited experience in MMO's tells me this is par for the course in the genre. However, I don't know that they've shown us all there is when it comes to endgame content. (I doubt it.)

    4. Lack of challenging 4 man content.
    I have concerns about this as well. However, I doubt it will be an issue for a little while as absolutely everything within the game will be new for players at release. I believe they've stated they have plans for new operations (raids), and flashpoints (instances) that have not been revealed yet. There are also open world quests that are meant to be group content that have nothing to do with flashpoints or operations.(Alderann video where they take on the self appointed king.) While I got the impression that most of their talk about unrevealed operations and flashpoints was meant as part of patches and expansions in the future, it wouldn't surprise me if they haven't shown us every flashpoint and operation already in the game.


    5. Large disparity between roles and specs.

    Yes, I can see the problem here. However, note that in most of the flashpoint walkthroughs they've released, whenever we switch to a healer's perspective they tend to also be dishing out damage in between those heals. (Terral V walkthrough) I imagine that won't be the case during more difficult content of course, or even during intense boss encounters. Tanks were also said to do significant damage in that same video though dps obviously does the most damage.

    I'd like to see the system in action before I judge it too much though.

    6. 2 faction system.

    The story basically dictates that there are two large factions with numerous smaller factions spread across the galaxy. However, in a universe like Star Wars and in a time when very little already exists for lore, BioWare is free to do many different things. I could see a significant third faction rising up pretty easily. I imagine all it would take is a bunch of breakoff Separatist systems who are sick of the Republic's handling of the war but also have no love for the Sith. (That took me a few seconds to come up with. I imagine BioWare could do much much better if they chose to.)

    This isn't something that bothers me as much as some of the other things you've mentioned though.

    7. PVP specific gear. or gear driven content in particular.

    I haven't heard much on the issue, so I'll have to withhold my judgement here as well. I will say that you are right in that taking a few weeks of grinding pvp battles just to obtain gear that makes you a benefit to the team instead of a detriment is not fun. I did that in WoW and I hated every moment of it as my toon was killed numerous times in situations I would have won had I been equally geared.

    I know BioWare brought in some people specifically focused on PvP, so I'm hoping they will be able to address this concern. However, the nature of MMO's tells me that it isn't likely.


    Those are just a few of my thoughts.

  15. #35
    1. server only PVP.
    Its one of the hardest things to accomplish in an mmorpg. For one there are massive population influxes from the start of the game into the next six months after release. Far as battlegrounds go, I think the mmo community has successfully fixed this as evident in many games following WoW and current WoW. B

    But the pvp environment in general is a very rare beast. I'm a world pvp advocate and have only seen 1 or 2 mmo's successfully accomplish a great thriving pvp world. I wouldn't worry about PvP for Star Wars as I think it has immense potential for great pvp environments that many standard dungeons and dragon communities have struggled to make. Only thing I would worry about is what you mentioned, population control on servers but that's a beast that is very difficult to work with if not impossible to fix entirely.


    2. People ninjaing items to gear their companions.
    Not too worried as a lot has been developed since the beginning of time of mmo's to lower the chances of this.


    3. A wow-like pigeonholing of progression content.
    If anything Star Wars excels in it will be content; obscene amounts of it. If anything I'm worried about how they will be able to keep up with all the content they claim they will have and the quality of the content. The world is HHHUUGGEE. Managing a game/universe/galaxy/whatever this size will be very difficult; I would think at least.


    4. Lack of challenging 4 man content.
    I'm curious how they will scale content. WoW caters to the general public that doesn't have the time to develop the required skilled to do harder content. As well Blizzard is always concerned with the below avg player being capable of completely all the content. This is an unusual company as most don't orient there games in this respect. I'd imagine Star wars is more chaotic in that is encompasses a vast amount of content that has not been tailored the way blizzard does it. Which means really easy killing and really difficult killing.

    Take home. This product isn't being produced by Blizzard; don't expect blizzard philosophy to be implemented into this game.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by harkonen View Post
    Before I start - disclaimer: I am not here to bash Bioware, or SWTOR, I have my copy preordered and will be playing. Just want to have a discussion about this.

    Basically, from the research I have done, there are some things that worry me and I just wonder if anyone else has worries too.

    1. server only PVP.
    This is good because you begin to have a community but bad because there will be faction imbalances. Blizzard hasn't come up with a good way to balance faction imbalances on servers so I don't expect anyone anytime soon to come up with a solution. The only thing that would make this work imo is free server transfers.

    2. People ninjaing items to gear their companions.
    With out cross server queuing this will easily be taken care of (does star wars do cross-server dungeon queuing?). Before the cross-sever dungeon queues in wow people in trade chat would report ninjas and eventually their reputation grew in the server and no one would group with them.

    3. A wow-like pigeonholing of progression content.
    4. Lack of challenging 4 man content.
    We will have to see how reactive they are to patching the game. If they are like Rift then I think content patches and upgrades will come quick.

    7. PVP specific gear. or gear driven content in particular.
    Another personal gripe of mine, is the gear = win system. It remains to be seen how this will play out in SWTOR. Many factors will impact this: will players need PVP gear to compete; will this gear take a long time to aquire; and will skill or gear be the deciding factor in fights. There is nothing worse that wanting to pvp but thinking you will have to get owned for 2 weeks just to get gear. Again GW2 should satisfy my preferences here, but I am worried about this in SWTOR.
    I agree MMO's need to look hard at games that mainly focus on PvP, for example the RTS genre and FPS one. Most of the popular ones don't require gear but require strategy or skill. A level 50 guy in BF2 can easily get owned by someone that is level 1 and better than him. SC2 doesn't have gear or level progression. Most successful PvP focused games don't have large gear difference and a "grind", which is effectively a hazing ritual, to get competitive. I think at some point MMO's are going to have to forfeit the weighting of gear/level in order to make it fun.
    I would like to hear if you have any opinions on any of my points, or have worries of your own.

  17. #37
    I'm concerned about everything you posted about, and more...

    Bolstering is a terrible system. In a perfect world, it's a fairly elegant solution to gear issues, but the way it has been implemented is going to fail tragically.
    Putting level 10s in BGs with 50s and then just making them a bit more powerful is not a good solution.

    Total lack of arena style pvp.
    The SWTOR pvp system of tanks/dps/heals all being viable would lead to highly interesting arena matchups - but Bioware is refusing to implement it.

    Too much focus on leveling, not enough on endgame. Newsflash - people don't play a game for its leveling content. Interesting 1-50 will keep people playing for 2 months, but you can be damn sure that without a deep endgame you're going to lose every sub you have once they hit 50. One raid, no arenas, a handful of max level dailies, and the possibility of rated bgs is NOT good endgame.

  18. #38
    just another wow clone

    sorry bioware =\

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    Last edited by Buckwald; 2011-09-29 at 09:41 PM.

  19. #39
    I've been worrying about several of these points too, but I've come to the conclusion that GW2 addresses them to a greater extent and so I'll be playing that instead. On top of that, Im not that into SW lore and I love the concept art and videos I've seen for GW2 so far.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nirawen View Post
    Dont forget they have Mythic people helping them out on a few things, thats plenty enough experience for me.
    This one speaks much truth. Remember, Bioware-Mythic is one whole company now and in charge of a large branch of EA game development. They'll have the resources to pull this off. Now will it go off flawlessly is the real question ...

    I hope!
    Last edited by Buckwald; 2011-09-29 at 09:42 PM.
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