Guild Wars is barely even an MMO.
That's enough of that.
---------- Post added 2011-09-29 at 08:14 PM ----------
Guild Wars is barely even an MMO.
That's enough of that.
---------- Post added 2011-09-29 at 08:14 PM ----------
Last edited by Trollsbane; 2011-09-29 at 09:41 PM.
Also, just because you like end-game does not mean everyone will be looking for end-game. Not everyone enjoys rushing immediately to max level to start raiding; some of us enjoy the journey there. Plus, it's sort of ridiculous to criticize end-game raiding for a game that's not been released yet, of which they haven't mentioned the other end-game material yet.
Just my .02 credits.
---------- Post added 2011-09-29 at 09:54 PM ----------
Where is this "24 Specs" coming from? This isn't WoW where you pick your talent tree and have that spec. All that is really released is that there are 3 trees per AC (2 dedicated 1 shared with the other AC from your base class). There isn't info released about how much you have to spec down a certain tree to be a viable tank/healer/dps for most content, but I don't think we should assume that given trees A,B, and C you have to be fully down one of them to be able to do regular content. Certainly this could be different for people aiming for best of the best (whether pve or pvp) but all content is not based around everyone min-maxing.
Edit: also, I am unsure how many of these issues have anything to do with MMO inexperience.
Last edited by PuliGT; 2011-09-29 at 09:30 PM.
I'm guessing you're talking about PuG dungeons as there will be no ninjaing in raiding. I can see this happening, but only once, because since you will only be able to group with those on your server, you could always /ignore them and let everyone on the server know that the person is a ninja. Unlike with WoW where the person can ninja and have no consequence because they're not in your server.2. People ninjaing items to gear their companions.
Since you gear your companions up, this is a real possibility. We saw it with offspec ninjaing in WoW, and selfish players may try to take any item that is vaguely useful to their companions. With 4 companions to gear up you will need a fair amount of gear for them, and I imagine pretty much every item will be useful to a companion in some way. I have not seen any info on class specific rolling or 'main spec priority' being built into the game.
I don't see the problem with this. This is what makes an MMO an MMO, the ever evolving story and the subsequent fights and gear upgrades. If you want to play a game where you acquire high end gear which remains high end forever, then play just a regular RPG instead of an MMORPG.3. A wow-like pigeonholing of progression content.
This is my biggest fear really, that we will be forced to run the same raid every week, for months on end, then everything becomes obscelete when the new content is released. This is pretty much the main reason I quit WoW personally. I like having choices and variety when I play, with lots of content to explore, not to repeat the same thing every week for months. It is my sincere hope that we will have lots of endgame content and not 3 raid tiers in an entire expansion. I understand that rushed out content is a bad thing of course, but the long development time for this game and the 'wow-model' being considered acceptable by most people does worry me a bit. I personally think that blizzard should have had more teams working on raid content to give players more to do at endgame, and I hope SWTOR doesnt end up the same way.
We haven't done any of the hard modes yet, so no one can comment on this. I am also worried about this though, I hope that they don't make it too easy.4. Lack of challenging 4 man content.
To keep players interested we will need to have things to do outside of raidtimes. From what I hear we will have only 4-5 flashpoints at release. If these arent sufficiently challenging, or regularly released I fear that the pve could be confined to raidtime only, as we see in wow. Add to this that a gear progression style means that content becomes obscelete means a lot of faceroll content, or the need for constant new content to be released. I have heard nothing of any scaling being used, or different difficulty levels (for example DDO dungeons have 4 or 5 difficulties each, and there are hundreds of them).
Your math is faulty there. Just because there are 75% DPS specs and 12.5% for other 2 doesn't mean that there will be 75% DPSers in the game and 12.5% the other 2. Look at WoW. There are 30 trees, 4 tanks and 5 heals. If you go by that, then there should be only 16% healers in the game and only 13% tanks. There aren't.5. Large disparity between roles and specs.
The choice to use 4 man groups, and I assume, the need to have a mandatory tank and healer, is going to cause problems. Compare this to how many people dont like to play these 'utility' roles and the vast amount of DPS specs. lets take a quick look at the numbers.
4man content: 25% tank 25% healer 50% dps
8man content: 25% tank (assuming 2) 25% healer (assuming 2) and 50% dps (assuming 4)
16man content: unsure how many tanks/healers will be used in this content.
specs (24 in total): 12.5 % tanking (3) 12.5% healing (3) 75% DPS (18)
I am suprised in the descision to go with 4 man groups if they require both a tank or healer, as a huge premium is put on these roles. I would prefer to see a system similar to DDO where group compositions are not set in stone. Tanks and healers exist in that game, but for most regular content they are not mandatory. I personally would prefer either 6 man groups or the need for only one of these roles being mandatory in a 4 man group (eg. a healer is needed to heal 3 dps, but a tank can sufficiently deal with the damage to allow for minimal healing in 4 man content)
What will determine whether the class roles will be balanced or not is not based on the percentages of which they exist, but whether or not they are fun/needed. I plan on rolling a Healing IA, but if healing isn't fun in SWTOR, I will respec to DPS or vice versa. BW needs to make sure that all 3 roles are fun to play.
To each his own, I'm more than satisfied with the 2 faction system. Also, GW2 will have only ONE faction. The WvWvW thing refers to server PvP, nothing to do with the in game faction. SWTOR could also implement a WvWvW PvP if they so choose.6. 2 faction system.
A small personal preference here but when it comes to PVP, 3 factions is a far more interesting system than 2. However star wars lore (not my strong point admittadely) seems to force this though. I cant really blame Bioware for this descision I would have just like to see something a bit more innovative than the standard 2 faction systems we see in so many MMOs. Thankfully GW2 will have this in their WvWvW system so that should satisfy my desire for 3 sided PVP.
Another to each his own. I personally love that gear makes a difference. In fact, I wished that it made more of a difference in SWTOR. Apparently you'll be able to upgrade lower level gear with mods. Also, gear only boosts 10% or so of your power in SWTOR, I wish it was more.7. PVP specific gear. or gear driven content in particular.
Another personal gripe of mine, is the gear = win system. It remains to be seen how this will play out in SWTOR. Many factors will impact this: will players need PVP gear to compete; will this gear take a long time to aquire; and will skill or gear be the deciding factor in fights. There is nothing worse that wanting to pvp but thinking you will have to get owned for 2 weeks just to get gear. Again GW2 should satisfy my preferences here, but I am worried about this in SWTOR.
I would like to hear if you have any opinions on any of my points, or have worries of your own.
---------- Post added 2011-09-29 at 09:33 PM ----------
Edit: Also keep in mind that WoW was also the first MMO for Blizzard, and no one can doubt its success and impact on MMOs. Just because it's a company's first try at an MMO doesn't mean that the MMO will be lacking. BioWare is a top notch developer right up there with Blizzard's caliber.
Simple math: BioWare + Lucas Arts + the biggest IP in the world (Star Wars) + $200+ million production = something I am looking forward to.
Last edited by Sengura; 2011-09-29 at 09:39 PM.
"It's not what we don't know that gets us into trouble; it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." ~Mark Twain
"The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time" ~Jesus Christ
When Blizzard first created World of Warcraft, how much MMO experience do you think they had? If you look at the games they created before WoW, you can see the answer is zero. They had absolutely no MMO experience. Don't knock Bioware for not being an experienced MMO company when they are a very experienced gaming company that has been in the business for years.
Your best bet? Play SW:ToR without expectations rather than trying to nit-pick it to death without knowing the full story. Let it surprise you. Surprise is good.
Originally Posted by Friedrich Nietzsche
Cutting up a game before it's out is kinda silly. If you go in with spiteful feelings it's probably not gonna change.
The game hasn't even come out yet and people are flaming it. Of coarse some inexperience will show but you can't expect any MMO to be gold from the start. WoW wasn't and still isn't. The game hasn't even be finished/released yet so it still has time to change. Being an MMO it will also likely be updated so it will still change and hopefully improve.
I'm not saying go in blissfully ignorant with waves of euphoria cascading over you as you begin to play. That's almost equally as foolish.
As far as companies go, Bioware is light years ahead of Blizzard and I believe that will be a plus for the new game. I've played WoW for a couple years and have been slowly yet constantly disappointed until I said enough. Blizzard has set the bar very low for MMO customer satisfaction and service.
I am reserved but hopeful and logical in thinking that there will be some bugs, but considering the company, if any major problems are present they will likely be fixed.
suprise is good, unless it is bad then its bad.
I have faith in bioware, I like most of what they have done before. If nothing else I will be happy with the levelling / story process alone for a while.
My intention is not to whine or say 'bioware is wrong, they must change', I just like to discuss these things.
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However, they have yet to make a passable MMO.
---------- Post added 2011-09-30 at 01:43 AM ----------
On bolstering - that is exactly WHY it's a terrible idea. Lower levels have absolutely no chance of success until they get to max level, which kills interest in pvp for new players. So, in making a tight knit pvp community - they're killing the pvp community. The better fix to infinitely long queue times is allowing cross realm pvp (if a single realm BG cannot be made in reasonable time) not forcing the newest and the oldest players together.
Also I don't think bolstering automatically shoots everyone to fifty. The way I believe bolstering to work is that it will try to match same level players first and if it can't do that then it will start to look to place that person or persons in higher level matches. I could be wrong about this, I admit that I'm no expert on how bolstering will work and I haven't seen much info about the mechanic.
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WC3 is barely even an MMO."
On topic, I think Bioware will be fine. Trion also had no MMO experience, but they've managed to do a very good job at handling their MMO.
Norn Mesmer: GW2
Rattataki Sniper: SWTOR
Bioware has one advantage, they can look at all the previous MMO's out there (not only WoW) and they can learn from their mistakes and what worked and what didn't.
Bioware made some fantastic games prior to SWTOR, just like blizz prior to WoW. Time will tell and most people don't care about what kind of experience bioware has with mmo's. When the game lauches all that matters is that people get immersed by the gameplay and that they have a great time playing, which would result in a successful launch. If they don't, well...then we already know what's going to happen.
I am worried a lot less about the types of issues you are raising and a lot more about behind-the-scenes type stuff.
The reason is because a lot of the issues and potential pitfalls that you have raised are plainly obvious to us (as players) and are certainly obvious to bioware's dev team, a large group of which I'm sure has spent a fair amount of time playing WoW and discussing how they can do it better.
What I would be more worried about is the stuff we don't really see or know about with WoW. Like how to manage client-server interactions on an MMO scale, how best to implement a queuing engine, how to do hotfixes, how to deploy patches, how to prevent hacking (speed hacks or w/e). Devs at Bioware can't just log into wow to see how they handle spell queuing or how to deploy a new patch to millions of different computers.
I'm a fan for the new and exciting, and yet I can't ever seem to yank my dedication to WoW away. I guess I'm MORE concerned that at the end of the day SWTOR is just not going to have "it", and less concerned about growing pains in MMO management. "It" is the ever speculated combination that made WoW stand out above the crowd.
If I did have inexperience concerns, I think they would be around up-time and implementation. Their systems around BETA access, early access, and pre-order greatly concern me. Their push for this Origin system make me think of the failures that FFXI and Warhammer experienced in forcing their systems. I especially hope that downtime and patch work are done at opportune times and are limited to a day or two a week.
Weren't loot based on a bag system? So that should not be a problem. (if it only apply to raid, well meh.. but anyway)
Ive heard that companion are always one level under the player, dont trust me on that i just heard.
Last edited by Nienniora; 2011-09-30 at 09:50 PM.
Bioware as a developer had no prior MMO experience, that doesn't mean it's individual employees don't. The entire reason they opened a whole new studio, specifically in Austin where lots of MMOs have been made is to hire people with prior experience.
Also every MMO I've played and liked(granted few) the developer had no previous MMO experience that I'm aware of. Those being EQ(Verant), WoW(Blizzard), SWTOR(Bioware...Played 50 hours). Tried a couple others and looked at others and had zero interest.
EDIT: Looking through the revised FAQ, I can see the source of confusion. They seem to have taken out the one about downloading the Origin program. The Origin account they are speaking of, however, is automatically generated, at least it was for me. My Origin account is my account through www.swtor.com. I never had to go to the Origin website to create another account.
Last edited by Chrysia; 2011-10-01 at 03:18 AM.
I have full confidence in Bioware making great single player story-driven games, I have confidence in Mythic's *technical* ability (client/server interaction etc). I have almost no confidence in them coming together to make a legit mmo.
Don't get me wrong, I can see TOR being a massive game and tons of fun (As a single player RPG)