Raid Finder Coming in Patch 4.3

[Rioo]

If DPS can need on my tanking loot I'm never gonna queue up with my warrior or druid. If a warlock, mage or non-holy paladin can need on my spirit gear I'm never gonna queue up with my priest.

[k1037]

How loot system needs to work:Blizzard needs to tag all gear with roles it was intended for. All tank gear gets tagged "tank gear", all healer gear gets tagged "healer gear", all dps gear gets tagged "dps gear". Some gear will have more than one tag; a str/stam mast/exp belt would be both tank & dps. I have limited class/roles itemisation knowledge, i never play casters, so can't spell out all the rules, but stuff like "sta/str gear with haste or cit is dps gear, sta/str gear with dodge or parry is tank gear" shouldn't be too hard for Blizzard to set up a rulebook on.Then, when the item drops, only people who are filling that role for the current raid gets to need. Not everyone who can equip it. Tank gear drops, only the tanks get to need. If you're dpsing but would like it for your offspec, you get to greed. If you dont want it at all, you disenchant (or pass if no DE in raid, unless Blizz is willing to just let us DE gear even if RNG doesn't put an enchanter in raid).The general rulebook should be easy to set up, some exceptions need to be added so that e.g. blood dk tanks can need on dps weaponry (only due to Blizzard refusing to create true DK tank weapons; i mean it's not like they're still doing it for warrs & pala's even after equalising 1h tank & dps weapon attack speed right? Oh wait...).Maybe Blizzard can stop putting 100% of their time & effort into catering to the needs of "the casual player" and put 10% of their effort into catering to the needs of people that could & would carry these random raid finder groups, if only they wouldn't get screwed in the ass by Blizzard on every turn.

That's how the Need-before-Greed system should've worked from the beginning. They could add this feature in one day. Seriously. It would be ridiculously easy. If I had access to their item database and knew how they were going to store/access the role tags, I could write up code in less than 10 minutes which would automagically add appropriate tags to all gear ever created based on which stats were on it. They'd have to hand tag 30 specs with the appropriate role tag (15 minutes tops), and insert the 2-3 line role check code next to the "armor class" check when the roll window comes up. Bam, done. Literally, one day tops, but more likely just an hour or two since I doubt they employ scrub coders.

[Vazhra]

Well I don't see the point in you guys complaining over the loot rules. This is not the donguen finder it's for raid same as all the other raids. These rules are same as if you were in normal raid with your guild or your server pug, if you didn't get loot off a 1st boss in your guild run don't you have to wait whole week to kill the same boss for your turn At loot on the same boss? So it's the same thing that applies here wait another week for it to reset.

I have to disagree with you on this. If you PuG a heroic with your friends on YOUR server, you are locked out of that heroic after you clear it, UNLESS you que for a random dungeon in LFG and happen to get it. You are able to get gear from it each time you go through and gear up your main, alts, friends, whoever. In a raid, you are also bound by the same rules. You are locked to each boss once per week and get one shot at gear. The ideology behind it transfer over that if you are going to be doing a raid over and over again for SUB-PAR loot, you should be able to have a shot at rolling each time. I mean, who gives a shit if you can farm the raid? Who loses in the end if you can constantly get gear from the raid? The guy who constantly leaves after the first boss? Eventually he gets all his drops he wanted and starts sticking it out for his 250 VP and LFR achieves.

I honestly just cannot contemplate why people would be against getting to roll more than once per week. If you have gotten gear from that boss, I completely understand not being able to roll anymore. I could also understand if you only were allowed to get loot once a week from a boss under the LFR system. As it currently stands, I believe it's going to frustrate a lot of people and they will lose more subscribers because of it.

[Baron01]

I'm really really excited about LFR and how it is shaping up. You can like or hate it, the fact still remains they are putting lots of effort and thoughts into its implementation. I like the fact it will not have lock out as normal and heroic version. I'm excited about the fact it will be optimized for less coordinated and homogenous groups. I support the decision it will drop tier loot albeit with lower item level budget. I would still appreciate if killing the boss in LFR would grant kill achievement--obviously in this case major mechanics of boss must be retained but my understanding is that Blizzard is shooting for that anyway. All in all, 4.3 looks great from all angles.

[Vengfulr3ap3r]

I have to disagree with you on this. If you PuG a heroic with your friends on YOUR server, you are locked out of that heroic after you clear it, UNLESS you que for a random dungeon in LFG and happen to get it. You are able to get gear from it each time you go through and gear up your main, alts, friends, whoever. In a raid, you are also bound by the same rules. You are locked to each boss once per week and get one shot at gear. The ideology behind it transfer over that if you are going to be doing a raid over and over again for SUB-PAR loot, you should be able to have a shot at rolling each time. I mean, who gives a shit if you can farm the raid? Who loses in the end if you can constantly get gear from the raid? The guy who constantly leaves after the first boss? Eventually he gets all his drops he wanted and starts sticking it out for his 250 VP and LFR achieves.

I honestly just cannot contemplate why people would be against getting to roll more than once per week. If you have gotten gear from that boss, I completely understand not being able to roll anymore. I could also understand if you only were allowed to get loot once a week from a boss under the LFR system. As it currently stands, I believe it's going to frustrate a lot of people and they will lose more subscribers because of it.

I know exactly what you mean, Its not like it'll make everything super easy for us. if anything it would make the progression that much more smooth, Do dungeons until your ready to progress further. When dungeons become easy mode step into LFR and learn the fights, then the learning curve for all new raids will be much smoother and they'd be able to progress from LFR to normal to heroic. Considering the loot is worse then normal mode i just dont understand what the problem is with using them to gear. If you did use em to gear when you have nothing left then you could step into normals with the right ilvl. It'd cut down on people stepping into raids with pvp gear and stuff like that. I just dont understand why they're trying to gate LFR. It might not have a lock out but it might as well have one considering you only get loot once per boss per week. I feel if you could use them to gear/practice and learn the fights it would actually Promote raiding in guilds since everyone would have some way to practice without pissing off their guild by accidently causing a wipe on every pull because they didnt know. With LFR everyone would have a way to practice and would know the mechanics before stepping into normal.. thus promoting raiding. But thats just my opinion on it.

On another note; I play on your server!! :P haha So hi from icecrown! haha xD

[papajohn4]

The problem with this train of thought though, is how a majority of the community views these things. Bliz needs to realize that a majority of raiders use some sort of Main spec before Offspec before AH/disenchant spec system. This is to ensure their raiders gear up the specs they are using first.For example, I play a shammy and we have an enhance shammy in our raid group. Now if we all went by the way Blizzard sees things, no one would be able to actual gear up the spec they are fulfilling for the raid first. This is turn would make people have to spend who knows how long until the whole group actually has the gear they need for their main specs.Think outside the box on something before you go on with the whole: It is impossible to ninja loot in the dungeon finder, or the raid finder. Think on why someone would make such a statement before going that route.

I am with you on this but it is different when you raid with your guild and when you raid with random people. For example let say that I am a tank and I have a very good gear as tank than my dps spec. Don't you think it would be better to join as tank because this way I will help most the random raid instead of join as dps? Also not to mention that tanks and healers already have priority on their guilds so they will get fast their normal raid tank gear. So what they are really after, is the off spec gear. but if tanks and healers have to go dps in order to get off spec gear who is gonna tank and heal?I think raid finder will be the "off spec" run mostly, cause everyone wants for their main spec the improved loot from normal/heroic modes and they will not bother for a lower ilvl. And I say everyone must help the raid group with the spec they know better and the spec they are good regardless what loot the go after

[Studioburst]

wow, hats off to Blizz for this forthcoming patch, quite impressed.

[Psychos]

The feature is just there so people can't farm gear easily. If you could just keep chain running it, it would take out the fun of finally having that BiS piece you wanted finally drop. I just hope they don't tell you what you've passed on, since I'd be gutted if I ever saw that I passed on my BiS weapon or something :P.

[Deleted]

Another thing I'm concerned about: If they're starting with T13 level raid but not including T11 or T12, how will those who've never done T11 or T12 content have the gear to succeed, even in T13 ezmode? I know a lot of casuals who have never raided in Cata, who have a lot of 346-353 and maybe a few 359 pieces from JP. If the first raid in LFR is a good 30 levels higher, it's going to be a giant leap to even down the first boss in ezmode T13.

In 4.3, you can purchase T12 set pieces and the "old" valor gear using justice points, all of 378 item level. In addition to that, you also have the new heroic 5 man dungeons offering what appears to also be 378 loot.

I'd assume the entrance threshold will closely mirror the gap players had to fill before being eligible to join 4.0 and 4.1 heroic 5mans respectively.

[Deleted]

I thought it was bad that they came up with something like Wrathion but.. this? It is the single concentrated substance to why Blizz made me stop playing this game. I would have gladly continued, if i could raid - if i could close that gap that is nigh impossible if you don't have the experience of CURRENT raids and the gear there of (even thought i had from all other). Now, you give people LFD for raids. Okay, people kind of suck ass in that regard, so it will be major wipefest, but some may pull through. Say what, you don't give kill achivements? Okay, because a achievement to kill a boss on NORMAL is so god damn hard. oh wait, it isn't. But that's all minor complaints. What is my HUGE gripe, is the fact of the loot. Now, Blizz, just how the f'ck did you think about this. you want Alts and people to get geared up - great. But you restrict they loot rolls to 1 per week from each boss. What? It's SUB-PAR loot, designed to be gained and people to get it - but you f'cking RESTRICT it? Blizz, are you aiming to make WoW worse? Because this is not a god damn improvement - this is literally holding to out-worn "ideals" and just making the game even worse. I could have re-subbed and raided with this shit, if i just fufilled it's god damn function that you claim - not some silly "oh hey, we want to stick about for 2 expansions, derp derp derp" - god damn.

[papajohn4]

The feature is just there so people can't farm gear easily. If you could just keep chain running it, it would take out the fun of finally having that BiS piece you wanted finally drop. I just hope they don't tell you what you've passed on, since I'd be gutted if I ever saw that I passed on my BiS weapon or something :P.

yes..expect the que times after sunday afternoon to be near infinity...also lets say that I am doing the raid and before the last boss or the last 2 bosses the raid is destroyed, so I have to join again and do it all over the start just for the last 2 bosses?it would be better to have seperate boss locks so people that are in a same boss can group together. but then, if this happened then the que times would be high...but you have to give motivation to people that will join and do the raid all over again if they miss only 1-2 boss...if no loot then something else...people that will join 2-3 times a week without the option to loot from bosses must be rewarded in some way cause they help others and they help que times also

[Deleted]

I am with you on this but it is different when you raid with your guild and when you raid with random people. For example let say that I am a tank and I have a very good gear as tank than my dps spec. Don't you think it would be better to join as tank because this way I will help most the random raid instead of join as dps? Also not to mention that tanks and healers already have priority on their guilds so they will get fast their normal raid tank gear. So what they are really after, is the off spec gear. but if tanks and healers have to go dps in order to get off spec gear who is gonna tank and heal?I think raid finder will be the "off spec" run mostly, cause everyone wants for their main spec the improved loot from normal/heroic modes and they will not bother for a lower ilvl. And I say everyone must help the raid group with the spec they know better and the spec they are good regardless what loot the go after

Ok well you have fun stepping into a new raid instance that will have superior loot even on LFR-difficulty, tank for it, and have every piece of tankgear go to a dpser/healer because there's 2 dps dk's, 3 dps warriors, and a pala healer. Then come back and explain again how it's great that everyone has an equal shot at loot, no matter which role it is intended for & which role you're filling in that raid. I'm tank main spec, i would like to tank for LFR-raids so that i can learn the fights & get some tank upgrades, but with current loot rules, i'll only be queuing as dps. Why? Because it's easier & more relaxed, especially for challenging encounters (dont think LFR groups are just gonna roflstomp over everything), and i'll get an equal shot at any tank loot that drops anyway.

[Deleted]

I cant wait for this to be implemented, I am a little worried about the loot distribution though, if people can only get 1 item per week they will probs get the item then leave the grp, knowing they cant get anymore epix.

[papajohn4]

Ok well you have fun stepping into a new raid instance that will have superior loot even on LFR-difficulty, tank for it, and have every piece of tankgear go to a dpser/healer because there's 2 dps dk's, 3 dps warriors, and a pala healer. Then come back and explain again how it's great that everyone has an equal shot at loot, no matter which role it is intended for & which role you're filling in that raid. I'm tank main spec, i would like to tank for LFR-raids so that i can learn the fights & get some tank upgrades, but with current loot rules, i'll only be queuing as dps. Why? Because it's easier & more relaxed, especially for challenging encounters (dont think LFR groups are just gonna roflstomp over everything), and i'll get an equal shot at any tank loot that drops anyway.

don't think of it like the first 2-3 weeks when everyone will have lower gear than the lfr loot. Think of it further and how it can live up for a long time. At the very start I am pretty sure that guilds will have a first run with LFR to get some gear for tanks - healers and dps of course and then they step into the normal raid..after a month or so, the good tanks and healers (good I mean players that they are in a guild and raid and know the fights, good for the current raid) they will have their gear ready and if their guilds will stop maybe the lfr raid and only step into normal mode. Those tanks and healers and dps will then use the LFR mostly to fill up their off spec in case they need it for their main raid.they have 2 options then1) Join with their main spec and their best gear cause this is the way to help the most in the raid and complete it smooth and fast.2) “forced” by loot system to join with their off spec, where they have lower gear and is not the specc they are practicing and they are best at..I know it is very bad feeling when you lose a roll but you have to think that off spec introduced for a reason and people can perform 2 roles everytime with a press of a button. Maybe later in the same raid a tank that needed on dps gear have to go dps in a fight cause only 1 tank needed… (Baelroc and Rhyolith comes in mind)

[Gray_Matter]

IMHO, this will only work if they tag the loot with specs or ban people who roll off spec. Need before Greed was a joke in the early Zand dungeons because people kept rolling for OS with no consequences. Not going to waste my time killing bosses if some caster can roll on on an agility trinket because it has haste.

[papajohn4]

IMHO, this will only work if they tag the loot with specs or ban people who roll off spec. Need before Greed was a joke in the early Zand dungeons because people kept rolling for OS with no consequences. Not going to waste my time killing bosses if some caster can roll on on an agility trinket because it has haste.

you just messed it m8. When we talk about off - specc roll we don't mean a caster need on trinket with agility just for haste..this isn't off - specc roll this is idiotic roll...don't blame off - specc roll because of this...

[Gray_Matter]

don't think of it like the first 2-3 weeks when everyone will have lower gear than the lfr loot. Think of it further and how it can live up for a long time. At the very start I am pretty sure that guilds will have a first run with LFR to get some gear for tanks - healers and dps of course and then they step into the normal raid..after a month or so, the good tanks and healers (good I mean players that they are in a guild and raid and know the fights, good for the current raid) they will have their gear ready and if their guilds will stop maybe the lfr raid and only step into normal mode. Those tanks and healers and dps will then use the LFR mostly to fill up their off spec in case they need it for their main raid.they have 2 options then1) Join with their main spec and their best gear cause this is the way to help the most in the raid and complete it smooth and fast.2) “forced” by loot system to join with their off spec, where they have lower gear and is not the specc they are practicing and they are best at..I know it is very bad feeling when you lose a roll but you have to think that off spec introduced for a reason and people can perform 2 roles everytime with a press of a button. Maybe later in the same raid a tank that needed on dps gear have to go dps in a fight cause only 1 tank needed… (Baelroc and Rhyolith comes in mind)

I am sorry but I very much doubt a tank will join as a tank just for his off spec stuff. LFR is only useful for learning the fights and gearing up for normals/HC's. Why would a geared tank want to spend 4 hours in a LFR pug on the off chance that they get some loot for their OS (RNG and rolls). They are better off doing a few dungeons and buying stuff with valor or gold.

---------- Post added 2011-09-30 at 10:29 AM ----------

you just messed it m8. When we talk about off - specc roll we don't mean a caster need on trinket with agility just for haste..this isn't off - specc roll this is idiotic roll...don't blame off - specc roll because of this...

But thats what Need before Greed presently allows. If you can equip it, you can need it. So unfortunately the system is broken.

[papajohn4]

I am sorry but I very much doubt a tank will join as a tank just for his off spec stuff. LFR is only useful for learning the fights and gearing up for normals/HC's. Why would a geared tank want to spend 4 hours in a LFR pug on the off chance that they get some loot for their OS (RNG and rolls). They are better off doing a few dungeons and buying stuff with valor or gold.

because with his guild there will be dps people that will get the dps drops...also the way the game works now is that only the high raid is worth doing so in 2 days of the week you go with your guild raid and then in other 5 days can do whatever you want...why not get the chance to go to LFR raid?You have to understand that everyone helps the raid with their way and their role.. so everyone deserves the loot. the reason that in guilds is main spec first, is because you will raid with the same people every week and this is the best way to have a well geared groups. Someone must tank, someone must heal and someone must dps..by choosing one role to help the raid group don't penalise you from getting loot for your off spec..every plate wearer can tank and dps, because someone chose to play his class only for one role doesn't take the right from other people to play all roles..and as Itold you now players can play two roles wit ha press of a button. And this most times happens in the same raid. So a tank you saw on first boss may go dps on second boss, a healer on first boss may go dps in a boss that needs more dps and less heal. Things changed in the game and now every class considered as multi-role.

But thats what Need before Greed presently allows. If you can equip it, you can need it. So unfortunately the system is broken.

indeed thats a bad design, they can easily put more rules on loot system to prevent such things, such as a mage that need on spirit gear for example.that also not considered as off - spec roll. but they have to keep the need for off-spec in my opinion

[Taylen]

I hope NOW they stop the nerfing of old content...

[Deleted]

don't think of it like the first 2-3 weeks when everyone will have lower gear than the lfr loot. Think of it further and how it can live up for a long time. At the very start I am pretty sure that guilds will have a first run with LFR to get some gear for tanks - healers and dps of course and then they step into the normal raid..after a month or so, the good tanks and healers (good I mean players that they are in a guild and raid and know the fights, good for the current raid) they will have their gear ready and if their guilds will stop maybe the lfr raid and only step into normal mode. Those tanks and healers and dps will then use the LFR mostly to fill up their off spec in case they need it for their main raid.they have 2 options then1) Join with their main spec and their best gear cause this is the way to help the most in the raid and complete it smooth and fast.2) “forced” by loot system to join with their off spec, where they have lower gear and is not the specc they are practicing and they are best at..I know it is very bad feeling when you lose a roll but you have to think that off spec introduced for a reason and people can perform 2 roles everytime with a press of a button. Maybe later in the same raid a tank that needed on dps gear have to go dps in a fight cause only 1 tank needed… (Baelroc and Rhyolith comes in mind)

Some things you need to be aware off:
- Even at THE END of an expansion, many raiders are still waiting for that one piece of loot that has never dropped for them. Personally, i've never even seen the Beth trinket drop. Saying something like "after a month they will have their gear ready" is absurd.
- Guilds will NOT be "learning" the encounters by using the LFR system. Guilds learn the encounters from watching kills on websites from the PTR servers, and will go directly for normals.
- Most guild-raiders do not care all that much about their offspec, especially when they barely ever get to use it. Our warrior tank is always tanking (i'm the one who switches to DPS on one tank fights), he doesn't give a damn about his DPS spec or gear. Why would he? Our druid healer is ALWAYS healing. She doesn't care about feral or balance gear. Why would she? Only people like me, who tank half the fights & dps the other, or our priest, who heals half the fights & dpses the others, care slightly about their offspec. What 99% of raiders care about & will put absurd amounts of effort into is maximising their main spec, getting that one piece of gear they're missing. If they have equal chance of getting it no matter if they're tanking/healing or dpsing, why would they tank/heal?

I've explained already why the current loot system would be horrible for new content: all loot is better than what you have, but everyone can roll on everything as long as they can equip it, which will make lots of people who have mainspec tank or healer, will simply queue as DPS: easier, same chance at the loot you want.
Why would the current loot system also be horrible for content you have on farm? Well, if they were to implement it for firelands now, i would likely want to join because there's still one item i need for my main spec (beth trinket), and several i need for my DPS spec. Why would i queue as tank? If i queue as DPS, i have an easier time, and if the trinket drops, i'll have an equal chance at getting it anyway.

The current loot system pushes people to the DPS roll, because it's more comfortable to be in DPS roll especially in a pug, and you have the exact same chance at any piece of gear you would want, which is the only reason raiders would ever join the LFR system, and it doesn't matter at all which roll you're filling - everyone has an equal chance at getting it. This is how it's been now for ages in the LFG system, despite Blizzard adding that satchel of awesomeness, it will be even more so in a LFR system.