Thread: Tweaking DPS

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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by crabmousse View Post
    that may be the case but the post I quoted is talking about using SR at 2-4cps and giving the impression that a few seconds of SR is a greater gain than two ticks of Rip. realistically speaking after a mangle and a rake you are one Shred away from a 5cp Rip, and another shred away from a 1cp SR, so I don't really get why you're arguing in favour of dropping a SR first.
    Man you started arguing, if you read closely i even sad its only me, also if i remember correctly even Mihir suggested something like that like few months back but w/e cba arguing.
    And ye 1 more thing give me example of starter where you actually wont cap energy for too long,and where you will use full potential of TF and Berserk please.
    @Gorelaz: i was ranked 15th(now 23rd) on raggy25normal w/o pots,tots or di you can check :P http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/d...1774#Macorcina

  2. #22
    Ok so I'll try this later, at wrk right now.

    FF, FC, MANGLE TO 5CP, TF, RIP, RAKE, RAVAGE, SR WITH 2/3CP, BSRK, SHRED TO 5CP, FB. Then switch to priorities.

    Sound good?

    Now, trinkets? What to go for?

    Stats, do I go for the hit cap or try up my crit?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by axxey View Post
    Read Mangle tooltip.
    Actually u mean Shred tooltip, now u go read Rend and Tear talent tooltip

    Quote Originally Posted by Macor View Post
    @Gorelaz: i was ranked 15th(now 23rd) on raggy25normal w/o pots,tots or di you can check :P http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/d...1774#Macorcina
    Yeah dps differs depends on ur luck with being Fixated by the meteors on last phase, if u get none of them u're free to nuke the hell out of him :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Grahf View Post
    Ok so I'll try this later, at wrk right now.

    FF, FC, MANGLE TO 5CP, TF, RIP, RAKE, RAVAGE, SR WITH 2/3CP, BSRK, SHRED TO 5CP, FB. Then switch to priorities.

    Sound good?

    Now, trinkets? What to go for?

    Stats, do I go for the hit cap or try up my crit?
    You go with the ones that gives the most agility atm, The Seed trinket from FL rep is good to start with coz with ur gear u should focus on Mastery/Crit till u get T12 2p, then u go for Haste hit/exp
    Last edited by Gorelaz; 2011-10-04 at 08:21 AM.
    Gorelaz 大猩猩

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by axxey View Post
    Read Mangle tooltip.
    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=48434 :-)
    Da Vuhdo iz wid'ya mon!

  5. #25
    A heads up to Mihir and Newbie, I mean I know you guys know your shit, cuz you're the only 2 ferals posting here ( excluding Smokey cuz he didn't post here yet ) that I can hold accountable on these forums and well I believe you missed a key point in the mew thing you were doing, he specciffically said letting rip fall off in favor of SR for 6sec, TF isn't mentioned, how you ended up in a situation to not have TF close when refreshing rip is beyond me, but ok, moving on, comparing whitehits to bleeds in percentages ( I'm even using your log to prove this point macor ) bleeds are ahead by a flopping 11% not favoring bleed uptime (TF'd) is always gonna result in a dps loss, likely larger than you might think because quite frankly they're the higher damage source. Anyway moving on, I think you're totally right with your new opener, and well I think I'd rather drop a 27k ( generally lowest crit ) FB than refresh a SR at 3sec... but that's just me, might explain why I do 30k on baleroc with 367 ilvl.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfdragon View Post
    ... might explain why I do 30k on baleroc with 367 ilvl.
    what dps you do is always related to what others in your raid do - often high numbers mean others don't do so well. so saying you do 30k dps doesn't mean much imo.
    not to mention that since you dont precise, assuming you're talking about baleroc normal... 1- cats have insane burst and 2- the fight is really short

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfdragon View Post
    A heads up to Mihir and Newbie, I mean I know you guys know your shit, cuz you're the only 2 ferals posting here ( excluding Smokey cuz he didn't post here yet ) that I can hold accountable on these forums and well I believe you missed a key point in the mew thing you were doing, he specciffically said letting rip fall off in favor of SR for 6sec, TF isn't mentioned, how you ended up in a situation to not have TF close when refreshing rip is beyond me, but ok, moving on, comparing whitehits to bleeds in percentages ( I'm even using your log to prove this point macor ) bleeds are ahead by a flopping 11% not favoring bleed uptime (TF'd) is always gonna result in a dps loss, likely larger than you might think because quite frankly they're the higher damage source. Anyway moving on, I think you're totally right with your new opener, and well I think I'd rather drop a 27k ( generally lowest crit ) FB than refresh a SR at 3sec... but that's just me, might explain why I do 30k on baleroc with 367 ilvl.
    TF is generally irrelevant for Rip. While it is good to have TF line up with Rip, it shouldn't be a priority to have TF rips since waiting to apply rip with a TF will hurt your uptime and your damage. You have a grace period of about a rip tick or so to line a rip up with TF, otherwise it becomes a dps loss.

    You lose two ticks of rip by doing SR first but you gain about 4 seconds of 80% boosted melee damage (depending on procs this could be between 4-5 autoattacks, let's say 4.5). 2 rip ticks is about 26k, the damage boost from SR on 4.5 melees is about 11k. The pure damage you're losing in the opener is about 15k damage, but the damage should be compensated elsewhere otherwise the theorycraft wouldn't have suggested putting SR before Rip in the opener is better than the opposite. To be honest, I don't know where. I would recommend visting EJ or fluiddruid and discuss the theorycraft behind it with leafkiller, alaron, tangedyn or yawning there. I would be willing to bet at least one of them has a justification for it (probably leafkiller as the mew script is an adaptation of the old script and leafkiller's script combined).

    As long as you don't lose significant uptime on your bleeds and SR, FBing is fine. You can refresh your SR pretty quickly after an FB, the same can't be done with rip (unless bloodlust/berserk is active).

    To echo what Tareum said, a dps number doesn't mean much unless it is accompanied by logs or some sim results.

  8. #28
    Ok so let me explain this, as I guess you missinterpreted me, SR is easy to keep up and refresh, there is no point in using the quick and easy cp's on it because it's uptime is the one that matters the least of our timers, glyphed TF lines up almost perfectly with rip if you know what you're doing ( in reality you glyph berserk, or well most do ) otherwise on a standstill encounter you have a small downtime phase between TF and rip refresh, however if you refreshed rip at last second of TF buff, you should still be hitting the soft spot preety hard, and it's a significant dps gain to have all rips TF'd over some uptime on SR ( considering you don't lose more than 2 ticks of rip waiting for TF ) however since I was talking timer management, let me clarify, on average while energy starved it takes me 6.7 seconds to get 5 cps ( round it up at 7 ) meaning I don't bite if my rip is below 7 sec, so basic bite order is Rip dur > 7sec? if yes SR dur = or > 3 ? if yes bite, and I don't see what's wrong with losing about half of 3 melee hits, where average melee hit is 3.5k meaning you lose 5k damage whereas you gain a FB which even in it's lowest noncrit does over 10k damage. Btw I'm gone to discuss the theorycraft with leafkiller, cuz it makes no freakin sence.

  9. #29
    @ Wolfdragon
    Rip is NOT affected by Tiger Fury, what's your problem, you don't know how to read or you don't understand that part??
    Do you lineup TF with Rip timer is irrelevant, also TF is not an option as glyph since FB glyph change. Not to mention 4t12 extension of zerg time but as you sad set bonusses are irrelevant in your case.
    About proving bleeds vs melee from log i posted: did you even downed raggy?since that fight is not viable comparison for opener( with we were talking on start of tread) or bleed up-time. If you want decent log for that ...http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/y...?s=5761&e=6061 there are some flaws there i know but you can't really use raggyN log to prove bleeds vs physical dmg argument.

    Btw on mangle spam suggestion i loled 2 days irl :P
    And for Newbie,Mihir and Smokey /respect for all the help for fellow kitty's

  10. #30
    All physical damage done is affected by TF, including Rip if you do it.

    However, you generally will lose more than two ticks of Rip waiting to apply a TF rip. Max duration on Rip is 22 seconds after three shred extensions, glyphed TF is a 27 second CD. 5 seconds = 2.5 ticks of rip.

    Regarding the FB
    9. Use Ferocious Bite if Berserk is up, you have 5 Combo Points, at least 5 seconds remaining on Rip, and at lease 3 seconds remaing on Savage Roar.
    .
    .
    .
    14. Use Ferocious Bite if you have 5 Combo Points, Rip has at least 14 seconds remaining, and Savage Roar has at least 10 seconds remaining (Optional)
    FBing with the number 14 condition is a slight dps gain.

  11. #31
    I admit I was too lazy to read all posts, if this is already in there, just ignore me^^. Still I would like to share my opener which I think is as close as you can get to an optimum.

    0. prepot
    1. FC (FF while in midair)
    2. Mangle
    3. SR (1-2cp)
    4. rip
    5. Shred until 5 cp
    6. TF
    7. Berserk (4pc set bonus assumed)
    8. Rake
    9. Ravage
    10. go on to your normal rotation
    Last edited by Schaendwich; 2011-10-06 at 01:00 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterNewbie View Post
    All physical damage done is affected by TF, including Rip if you do it.

    However, you generally will lose more than two ticks of Rip waiting to apply a TF rip. Max duration on Rip is 22 seconds after three shred extensions, glyphed TF is a 27 second CD. 5 seconds = 2.5 ticks of rip.

    Regarding the FB


    FBing with the number 14 condition is a slight dps gain.
    Oki i might be wrong but i think it was sad few months back in (cat guide)that TF does not buff Rip, if i'm wrong than excuse me :P

  13. #33
    You do realise that bleeds together (17%+ 15%) are ahead of your meleehits, everywhere? I don't understand the need to prioritise meleehits, which are on both logs 10 % below bleeds in damage done makes little to no sence, oh and really bro, I wouldn't poke at a beast that's already halfway into retirement... you'd just get burned.

    Now, let me finish this up all nice and fuzzy, yes waiting for TF to refresh rip is NOT a dps gain if not executed properly, and as to the mangle argument, I take it you are aware that mangle costs less energy, and insures you get 5 cp's no matter what in the opener before you TF, which is primetime, anywho, finishing up towards the TF argument, TF lasts 5 seconds if rip is applied at the end of tf meaning the last second TF is back up in 25 seconds as opposed to the original 30, assuming miss dodge or parry, this is a viable situation, or energy starve + combo point build up and such crap, there has always been a point in the fight where you just have to refresh the rip before TF, but at a different point it's more benefitial to wait for it.

    Btw Macor, if you have issues with the fact that your dps is faulty, and that your whitehits are garbage compared to bleeds no matter how much you prioritise them, blame blizzard and the game, for making you actually do something to do proper damage 32k on baleroc is impressive... except I pulled 25k on festergut 25h back in LK, there was a parse somewhere... used to have top spot there cookie to the one who posts how first. ( not an exploit, was done by a different cat after me and the guy pulled a flopping 27.5k ). There is a reason cats are taken as bad dps nowdays, and one of the reasons are people like you, you just paint a bad picture, but getting where you're coming from, I understand why ( it's a mentality issue on the balcans, not a personal attack, don't take it as one ) .
    Last edited by Wolfdragon; 2011-10-06 at 10:37 PM. Reason: Post came on as too flamboyand and suffered WALL sindrome, fix'd

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfdragon View Post
    You do realise that bleeds together (17%+ 15%) are ahead of your meleehits, everywhere? I don't understand the need to prioritise meleehits, which are on both logs 10 % below bleeds in damage done makes little to no sence, oh and really bro, I wouldn't poke at a beast that's already halfway into retirement... you'd just get burned. Now, let me finish this up all nice and fuzzy, yes waiting for TF to refresh rip is NOT a dps gain if not executed properly, and as to the mangle argument, I take it you are aware that mangle costs less energy, and insures you get 5 cp's no matter what in the opener before you TF, which is primetime, anywho, finishing up towards the TF argument, TF lasts 5 seconds if rip is applied at the end of tf meaning the last second TF is back up in 25 seconds as opposed to the original 30, assuming miss dodge or parry, this is a viable situation, or energy starve + combo point build up and such crap, there has always been a point in the fight where you just have to refresh the rip before TF, but at a different point it's more benefitial to wait for it. Btw Macor, if you have issues with the fact that your dps is faulty, and that your whitehits are garbage compared to bleeds no matter how much you prioritise them, blame blizzard and the game, for making you actually do something to do proper damage 32k on baleroc is impressive... except I pulled 25k on festergut 25h back in LK, there was a parse somewhere... used to have top spot there cookie to the one who posts how first. ( not an exploit, was done by a different cat after me and the guy pulled a flopping 27.5k ). There is a reason cats are taken as bad dps nowdays, and one of the reasons are people like you, you just paint a bad picture, but getting where you're coming from, so do most people from the balcans.
    Saying that we'd "just get burned" for arguing with you does nothing, just so you know. Numbers from a previous expansion mean nothing, the combat system has changed, stats have changed, the relative value of stats has changed (by that I mean the amount for 1% of hit/crit/etc.). If you want to somehow imply that you are authoritative on the subject back in WotLK, you've done a fine job. This isn't WotLK however.

    Stacking your rip and TF as you described, you will eventually run into a situation where you will HAVE to wait for TF to come up before ripping.

    If you rip at the end of TF (so there would be 21 seconds on the CD of TF by the time you rip), to not lose uptime on rip you would have to refresh rip immediately upon the next activation of TF, since there would be 1 second left after the extensions. So the effect would be having a new rip one second into TF (26 seconds on the CD). Next round, to rip you will have to wait for TF to come up, since rip will fade 4 seconds before TF is off CD. This is perpetuated through the entire fight. Now, since you're losing ~4.5 seconds of rip every 27 seconds, you will have a rip uptime of 16.7% less than people who are not waiting to TF rip, but your rip damage will be 15% more. So (.833)*1.15 = .958. So you're doing approximately 96% of the damage from rip you could be if you weren't waiting.

    In reality, not waiting for TF without the glyph will net about 30% of your rips with TF (according to Mew). Because of that, you're rip damage won't be a flat 15% increase over other people's damage, so the rip damage you're doing compared to them will be less than 96% of their rip damage.

    E: Also, using mangle instead of shred in the opener is not an efficient use of your energy. You will get more damage using shred than mangle.
    Last edited by MasterNewbie; 2011-10-06 at 10:13 PM.

  15. #35
    You do realise I only argue with people who are arguing with me without points, "lol'd irl for 2 days at mangle comment" is what I was answering towards with the burned comment ( I don't really know why you felt intimidated there as we're arguing dps, in a civil matter ).

    You make a fine point, yes that's exactly what I was thinking, had trouble wording it though, however since I didn't do the actual math I thought it would be an increase, rather than a 4% rip damage drop, you've proved me wrong.

    But since I already have your attention, can you run a Mew itteration where it bites if rip is at 7 or more seconds and SR at 4+ ? I'd like to see how that turns out as I've been following the WoTLK pattern of more fbs=better druid, hell I've had a good day where I got about 11 fb's pre execute phase on some standstill encounters, it might be the reason I'm not as dominant as I would think with that many fb's over the next guy. Btw since I don't understand the point of not using FB when it's possible to gain the 5cps you're gonna lose in the next window, are we supposed to pool the energy ( My number interpretation said that FB's DPE doesn't change no matter how much energy you have ) and that being the reason why not to, or if not, then I'd like to know how come it isn't a dps gain to weave in more of them while sustaining over 85% uptime on bleeds and over 95% on SR ( again following WoTLK model ). Thanks in advance.

    PS: In both situations where I posted that TF with glyph it's a different situation, I've stated in the brackets that in reality it isn't and that you go for the glyph of berserk, and don't think I can't stand down and admitt I was wrong, because I'm a bigger man than that.
    Last edited by Wolfdragon; 2011-10-06 at 10:32 PM. Reason: DE-Walling

  16. #36
    Either I am doing something wrong or there is no difference. I mean, literally, no difference. DPS is the same, number of FBs is the same in both sims.

  17. #37
    Hmm, interesting, tried going the other way around and making it do less fb's? only thing that pops to mind at this hour is that the default settings are closer to my estimated minimums for combo point generation, I don't have mew on this pc else I'd try myself, but it's getting late so I'll sleep on it, thanks for the info I appreciate it.

  18. #38
    For what it's worth...
    I never wait for TF to rip. Preferably ofc it's already up, but if not, I'll go ahead and clip rip 2 seconds ahead.
    For rake (and ravage) preferably ofc TF is already up too. But I'll always rake never letting it fall off, and never wait for TF. But I'd make sure to re-apply rake right after using TF off cd.

    I FB above 80% hp only when berserk is on, with 5cp and sufficient time so I can re-apply 5cp without starving myself.
    I FB below 25% to refresh rip, preferably with a minimum of 35 energy.
    That's about it.

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