Avenging Wrath

[Lyese]

Melee raid buff says HI!

Because 10% AP totally fixes our proc-reliant rotation, empty gcds, lack of gap closer, weakness to dispels, reliance on cooldowns, etc...oh wait! It's just another band-aid fix until the next expansion when they inevitably retool Paladins once again! Also, 1 sentence replies to a thought out post reminds me of 4chan. :P

[Vuagnon]

One problem with AW is its way too easily recognizable animation, so it becomes no brainer to instantly dispel, disarm or whatsoever the Paladin at that moment. Either change the anmiation to make it harder to recognize or give it a dispel protection. I'd personally prefer the 2nd one.

[Chicolatino]

One problem with AW is its way too easily recognizable animation, so it becomes no brainer to instantly dispel, disarm or whatsoever the Paladin at that moment. Either change the anmiation to make it harder to recognize or give it a dispel protection. I'd personally prefer the 2nd one.

Make it harder to recognize or new animation???? But I like my wings >_>

[Manstallion]

One problem with AW is its way too easily recognizable animation, so it becomes no brainer to instantly dispel, disarm or whatsoever the Paladin at that moment. Either change the anmiation to make it harder to recognize or give it a dispel protection. I'd personally prefer the 2nd one.

Making it harder to recognize won't matter. People's mods will still yell at them that a nearby pally has wings up even if they made no visual cue at all.

[Vonballz]

Thank you. So many pallys just don't understand this.

Actually I'm pretty sure you don't understand Ret at all. You say that wings should be saved until such point that you have your opponent under control or his HP is so low that he flees. You do understand that Ret has very little to no burst w/o this cooldown which is why it's such a big deal that it's so easily negated by multiple classes at will, right?

I agree with trying to use AW wisely and not starting every fight guns blazing, but I think you're missing the point why it's total crap that we depend so heavily on a C/D that has a HUGE visual cue that half the other classes see and go "click", problem solved.

[Lothaeryn]

Avenging Wrath really is too obvious an ability though. Compared to many other abilities from other classes, hell, warriors dont even look like they pop CD's usually, they just get a small red glow on their hands and thats it. Compared to a paladin, who goes super Saiyan when he pops his CD's it makes for an easy target saying "Here I just popped CD's! Run away!"

the dependance on AW as a mainstream burst in dps is the pressurepoint here. Our opponents always know what to expect from a ret when engaging them, and they always anticipate it and are prepared to counteract it even before going into a fight with one. If we had more burst taken away from AW and input into our more regular rotations, it would reduce the necessity of the CD, making it less predicable and important for our enemies to counteract.

That, or just make it non dispellable, every class has a counter, but for rets it seems almost all of them are with a simple offensive dispell.

[blazto]

Actually I'm pretty sure you don't understand Ret at all. You say that wings should be saved until such point that you have your opponent under control or his HP is so low that he flees. You do understand that Ret has very little to no burst w/o this cooldown which is why it's such a big deal that it's so easily negated by multiple classes at will, right?

I agree with trying to use AW wisely and not starting every fight guns blazing, but I think you're missing the point why it's total crap that we depend so heavily on a C/D that has a HUGE visual cue that half the other classes see and go "click", problem solved.

How can I not understand if you agree with using AW wisely? Apparently I know enough not to use CDs wrecklessly. Before you assume, maybe you should reread what you write. How can I miss anything, if I realize to use this CD according to the comp I'm fighting? Isn't most counters and an ability just a "click" anyway? It's more of a learn to play issue and reading comprehension for you. I have never said ret doesn't have problems, I said they have more problems than this. So show me where I said that? I take it for what it is and work around it, not cry on forums that shows lack of understanding game and other class mechanics.

---------- Post added 2011-10-04 at 07:12 PM ----------

Avenging Wrath really is too obvious an ability though. Compared to many other abilities from other classes, hell, warriors dont even look like they pop CD's usually, they just get a small red glow on their hands and thats it. Compared to a paladin, who goes super Saiyan when he pops his CD's it makes for an easy target saying "Here I just popped CD's! Run away!"

the dependance on AW as a mainstream burst in dps is the pressurepoint here. Our opponents always know what to expect from a ret when engaging them, and they always anticipate it and are prepared to counteract it even before going into a fight with one. If we had more burst taken away from AW and input into our more regular rotations, it would reduce the necessity of the CD, making it less predicable and important for our enemies to counteract.

That, or just make it non dispellable, every class has a counter, but for rets it seems almost all of them are with a simple offensive dispell.

Like focus firing a holy pally or mage to get them to use Divine Shield or Ice Block? Every class has a pressure point, what decides the match is if you can force them to make a mistake. People anticipate it because 99% of pallys are predictable.

---------- Post added 2011-10-04 at 07:20 PM ----------

Because 10% AP totally fixes our proc-reliant rotation, empty gcds, lack of gap closer, weakness to dispels, reliance on cooldowns, etc...oh wait! It's just another band-aid fix until the next expansion when they inevitably retool Paladins once again! Also, 1 sentence replies to a thought out post reminds me of 4chan. :P

Thanks for following the thread and seeing the different posts. Another person assuming and trying to be clever. /Bravo

[Chicolatino]

Actually I'm pretty sure you don't understand Ret at all. You say that wings should be saved until such point that you have your opponent under control or his HP is so low that he flees. You do understand that Ret has very little to no burst w/o this cooldown which is why it's such a big deal that it's so easily negated by multiple classes at will, right?

I agree with trying to use AW wisely and not starting every fight guns blazing, but I think you're missing the point why it's total crap that we depend so heavily on a C/D that has a HUGE visual cue that half the other classes see and go "click", problem solved.

Sir, I am not understanding. If you wouldn't mind clarifying. Arena is a "TEAM" effort sir, therefore you work with your team to bring 1 target down. True ret burst is not as great or consistant as another class, but I have never had issues bring down a player with just GotAK + Zealotry + Dps trink. Even in duels those are "typically" enough to bring my opponent low. I tend to save Avenging Wrath until (like i said eariler) they are pressured into fleeing to survive. At that point i usually pop wings and hit them with hammer of wrath. Usually save HoJ and Arc torrent at this point. Of course every fight,duel,watever is going to play out different, but that is where good reaction and judgment comes in =)

If you feel ret is crap dmg w/o wings in your rotation, well then I am going to have to disagree. We are a very reliant on procs but even still I don't have issues getting an opponent low to where he gets in that "panic" or "pressure" point. I almost always save wings to when my opponent is below 20% sometimes even wait til i see them below 15%. Unless I see a golden opportunity to pop wings early, which happens every so often =)

[Lothaeryn]

How can I not understand if you agree with using AW wisely? Apparently I know enough not to use CDs wrecklessly. Before you assume, maybe you should reread what you write. How can I miss anything, if I realize to use this CD according to the comp I'm fighting? Isn't most counters and an ability just a "click" anyway? It's more of a learn to play issue and reading comprehension for you. I have never said ret doesn't have problems, I said they have more problems than this. So show me where I said that? I take it for what it is and work around it, not cry on forums that shows lack of understanding game and other class mechanics.

---------- Post added 2011-10-04 at 07:12 PM ----------



Like focus firing a holy pally or mage to get them to use Divine Shield or Ice Block? Every class has a pressure point, what decides the match is if you can force them to make a mistake. People anticipate it because 99% of pallys are predictable.

---------- Post added 2011-10-04 at 07:20 PM ----------



Thanks for following the thread and seeing the different posts. Another person assuming and trying to be clever. /Bravo

I honestly dont know if your trolling or not at this point, so I am Assuming the Former...

Are you really trying to tell me that 99% of paladins are retarded and predictable? You cannot be serious into believing that Vanguardys, who pretty much is the #1 ret in the world, is an idiot and cant make moves that arent predictable.

Predictability is the only reason why pvp is even possible, the fact that the abilities of each class are constant and that the appropriate rotation/combo is usually widely used is the only way that people can even effectively do competitive pvp.

The fact is that paladins are too predictable in power, everyone knows paladins are shit in pvp without cooldowns, and so they time their attacks to counter it.

What your trying to say is that Paladins need to get a grip and L2P, and that is just complete bullshit. Considering that almost every class can counter anything that a paladin does without little to no effort exhausted.

Bubble can be broken, AW Dispelled, Hand of Freedom dispelled or stolen. and then we are left to be kited/killed. And you say that a paladin who cant get over every core defensive counterability in their arsenal being stopped a skilless idiot?

I don't care if i get infracted at this point, you really are an ignorant and bigoted retard.

You would have been fine save for that last line. Cut the insults. - Hitsurugi

[blazto]

I honestly dont know if your trolling or not at this point, so I am Assuming the Former...

Are you really trying to tell me that 99% of paladins are retarded and predictable? You cannot be serious into believing that Vanguardys, who pretty much is the #1 ret in the world, is an idiot and cant make moves that arent predictable.

Predictability is the only reason why pvp is even possible, the fact that the abilities of each class are constant and that the appropriate rotation/combo is usually widely used is the only way that people can even effectively do competitive pvp.

The fact is that paladins are too predictable in power, everyone knows paladins are shit in pvp without cooldowns, and so they time their attacks to counter it.

What your trying to say is that Paladins need to get a grip and L2P, and that is just complete bullshit. Considering that almost every class can counter anything that a paladin does without little to no effort exhausted.

Bubble can be broken, AW Dispelled, Hand of Freedom dispelled or stolen. and then we are left to be kited/killed. And you say that a paladin who cant get over every core defensive counterability in their arsenal being stopped a skilless idiot?

I don't care if i get infracted at this point, you really are an ignorant and bigoted retard.

You would have been fine save for that last line. Cut the insults. - Hitsurugi

First and foremost if you followed this thread you would see that I said Ret needs work. Making wings undispellable would not fix anything. When I not on my pally and I can't doing anything with their wings, I just kite until it ends. Not trolling at all. The only thing you're doing is listing a counter to paladin's abilities. Every class has a counter for another, get over it. That's what seperates high ranked ret paladins and then the rest. Ret is at a disadvantage in the first place. Learn to use your abilities so you aren't a victim but a winner.

[Jonuts]

OFC theres a proper time to use it, but what you fail to mention is WHEN that time is, well?

It's a catch-22 really. The only time you can pop your CD's is when whoever can dispel them is dead, but by this time, it's pointless to pop them because you've probably won anyways. It's best to save them until whoever can dispel you is busy. You might get as much at 10s of your wings. Unfortunately, alot of comps have multiple people that can dispel at the touch of a button, so in PvP against decent players, they're pretty worthless. They can't be used until you've already won. Kinda sucks it's a total catch-22. This of course, assumes you aren't CC'd to obscurity the moment you pop them anyways, but thats the type of game this is, so not much you can do about being brutally CC'd unless you reroll a mage and blink out of everything.

[impulze]

First and foremost if you followed this thread you would see that I said Ret needs work. Making wings undispellable would not fix anything. When I not on my pally and I can't doing anything with their wings, I just kite until it ends. Not trolling at all. The only thing you're doing is listing a counter to paladin's abilities. Every class has a counter for another, get over it. That's what seperates high ranked ret paladins and then the rest. Ret is at a disadvantage in the first place. Learn to use your abilities so you aren't a victim but a winner.

Then what class/spec do you think that Rets would counter?
Do you think that in a pvp situation Rets reply greatly on their CDs to kill their opponents?
Do you think loosing that 20% burst damange is significant to Rets?
What do u think the ratio for each spec is within the gladiator bracket? or more specificly how many rets compared to other specific dps classes?

imo loosing 20% burst dmg is way too much. lets jsut say we roughly do 20k burst dps on avg, without wings and given the ideal situation, we could be doing 24k for that 20s, an extra 4k for 20s would = 80k dmg alone just wings. Which means 1 dispell/spell steal/purge would equal to an 80k heal for this mock up instance.

As for 3.0 + side track biz, how can the norm accept with the fact that Ret went from lol to in-your-face. Its like your slave suddenly became your king, or this kid that your pick on daily just suddenly became bruce lee. OP or not, it has already been fixed and shouldn't even care about it any more since it was almost 2 xpacks ago. And if you were to talk about old news, might as well bring up the lolret which still hasn't been fixed completely yet in pvp . PvE wise Ret is slightly behind in dps compared to other melee by a tiny margin imo, but overall they're fine in dmg and could use fine tuning with procs for less rng.

still looking forward to up coming changes to 4.3, they said something about less HoW dps and more overall dps. Hopefully this, 56% less crit for 5% more weapon dmg, wont be the final fix for 4.3