Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1
    Blademaster ZeroSkyVII's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Thomaston, ME
    Posts
    38

    Discipline or Holy for 10 Player Heroics?

    Hey guys, I'm a long-time player with a heap of experience across several characters; including a 15% buff Heroic LK 25 realm first kill, and Herald of the Titans, so I'm looking for some intelligent help!

    For someone specializing in 10 Player Heroic Mode Raiding, everybody says, "zomg Disc is OP". I fell with the tide and went Disc for my new guild, which I play well. All throughout Cata I have played Holy, however, and really miss it. I'm allowed to play the spec I enjoy, but as a min/maxer I just feel downright "second rate" choosing Holy when everyone says that Disc is "OP" for 10 mans. Normally I'm not one to be swayed by hearsay, but a cursory glance at WoL rankings shows that Disc can indeed put out much more than Holy.

    What, however, is it that makes Disc so "OP"? Is it the fact their 'healing' comes in the form that almost no other healer can replicate (absorbs)? Is it the astonishing raid wall cooldown?

    I really want to know the workings behind Disc vs. Holy when it comes to 10 man raiding, and get some solid input that makes me say, "Yeah, one is definitely better than the other in this situation." or, "No, it really doesn't matter what you play."

    Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...elain/advanced

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroSkyVII View Post
    What, however, is it that makes Disc so "OP"? Is it the fact their 'healing' comes in the form that almost no other healer can replicate (absorbs)? Is it the astonishing raid wall cooldown?

    I really want to know the workings behind Disc vs. Holy when it comes to 10 man raiding, and get some solid input that makes me say, "Yeah, one is definitely better than the other in this situation." or, "No, it really doesn't matter what you play."
    1) Infinite mana
    2) Very strong tank healing
    3) Raid healing comparable to holy
    4) Easy to switch between tank/raid healing (don't need to switch stances)

    Barrier is nice to have but actually not that great in 10 man (lightwell will typically be more "healing"). Either way, damage is light enough post-nerf that you can comfortably 2 heal every fight in whichever spec you prefer.

  3. #3
    Herald of the Titans Yilar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    2,846
    The near inifinite mana part is the biggest bonus. Holy is very reliant on coh/poh to be comparable, unfortunally there is only a handful of fights where that is even remotely viable as holy, due to there not being enough people to raid heal in 10m. Holy is a lot better in 25m where you can raid heal on almost all fights.

  4. #4
    im afraid that my words may seem harsh, but, at the very moment of progression in firelands compared to progression of your priest, there really isnt much point of yours min/maxing to the point where you have to play spec you dont like as much as holy.

    atm every hc boss in 10man have been killed multiple times with holy priests and without discipline priests in raids.
    after the recent nerf of firelands bosses discipline cooldowns are nowhere near necessary.

    so just pick what you find more fun to play. even on baleroc hc, holy is far behind the disc but still can do the job fine. altho you might want to play discipline for the learning of this boss.

  5. #5
    Hi, I heal heroics mode Firelands as Holy and have no issues with my mana pool. And I'm wearing a couple non-spirit pieces.
    Don't listen to the FUD that's floating around, both specs can handle the current heroic content.
    Hell, I even tank heal as Holy and have no issues.

    4) Easy to switch between tank/raid healing (don't need to switch stances)
    Aside from the obvious clustered raid damage(Scorpion phase, Bethtilac p2, Alysrazor Essence of the Green), I'm always in Serenity. PoH and Sactuary have very limited uses in a 10 man.

  6. #6
    in 10 it depends on other healers with you if there is a drood then disc
    When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all ... Futurama-Godfellas

  7. #7
    The Patient
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    240
    What I've been playing on my alt-priest (7/7 heroic in our 10man alt raid):

    Shannox: Smite Discipline (spamming smites on Shannox and shielding Facerage-targets)
    Rhyolith: Holy (Sanctuary-stance will let you top people off after stomps and volcano rng with great efficiency)
    Alysrazor: Smite Discipline (originally a pre-nerf intention, where the dps was helpful on the hatchlings - either way its mostly just healing one target - discipline is the obvious choice)
    Beth'tilac: Holy (Serenity upstairs in phase 1, Sanctuary downstairs in phase 2)
    Baleroc: Discipline (Always has been a very obvious choice for this fight)
    Stagelm: Smite Discipline (We've gone down to being lazy and doing a zero-scythe strategy. Smiting the entire fight will not only help the DPS a bit, but also provide more than enough healing for your one damage-taking target)
    Ragnaros: Smite Discipline (this was primarily to help p3 dps - I would've much rather been holy myself)

    Honestly I much prefer Holy myself, I love its mechanics and utilities. However, Disc just finds itself more suitable on many fights. In particular, the ones where you can Smite a whole lot. The two fights where I actually do play Holy, I suppose it's a bit more of a "personal choice". The state of the fights are just so incredibly simplisic that you can roll either way.
    Last edited by Apothysis; 2011-10-06 at 02:11 PM.

  8. #8
    trying to make this as short as possible:

    Holy isn't in the best state in 10m atm, this could all change with 4.2 but disc just ends up to be infinitely better in 2healing situations because of the strong tank and spot healing and comparable aoe healing. We 2heal all the fights atm and well, we have me (holy pala) and our priest healing. She's been healing as holy for aaaages and frankly doesn't like disc at all, so we let her stay holy. You barely notice the difference on some mediocre fights, but on things like beth HC where she takes downstairs or not having a raid CD hurts sometimes on things like majordomo. IF you 2heal fights, disc definately is better - 3healing holy might be a bit above, but it just nerfs your dps output by quite a bit making encounters longer. If your other healer is very competent and doesn't rely on your absorbs and your spot healing go for holy if you play it better or it is more fun. If healing ends up stopping your progression, go disc.

    Hope I didn't ramble about things I don't know about and it helped,

    ~Drona
    PvP only as of MoP!
    ~ www.twitch.tv/dflproductions ~ Streaming WoW multiclass Arenas as well as Starcraft II ladder streams!

  9. #9
    Blademaster ZeroSkyVII's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Thomaston, ME
    Posts
    38
    Thank you all for your concise and informative responses! 4.2 isn't really my interest as I am not currently raiding in high-end progression, and I'm aware the encounters are nerfed; what I was looking for was an overall consensus on which specialization is better for top-end progression raiding; i.e. what would be great going into 4.3 with were I to join a world class guild?

    With this goal in mind, what I have learned is that Discipline seems to just have a very handy and versatile spellbook (the ability to put out decent DPS with an Atonement spec, AOE healing comparable to Holy, retain mana, and provide a raid wall) that is invaluable. Thank you all for answering my question!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroSkyVII View Post
    Thank you all for your concise and informative responses! 4.2 isn't really my interest as I am not currently raiding in high-end progression, and I'm aware the encounters are nerfed; what I was looking for was an overall consensus on which specialization is better for top-end progression raiding; i.e. what would be great going into 4.3 with were I to join a world class guild?

    With this goal in mind, what I have learned is that Discipline seems to just have a very handy and versatile spellbook (the ability to put out decent DPS with an Atonement spec, AOE healing comparable to Holy, retain mana, and provide a raid wall) that is invaluable. Thank you all for answering my question!
    It is a waste of time trying to figure out what spec will be best in 4.3. Changes to our class will be made and we haven't seen the encounters yet. Which spec that will be good for which encounter will depend on the fight itself and your healing setup. If you were to join a world class guild, you would be expected to be able to play both spec at a high level and choose your spec depending on what would benefit your raid the most.

  11. #11
    The only reason Disc ended up winning for most raiders was due to the Barrier raid cooldown, in 4.3 Holy has one.
    Aside from raid cooldowns, holy is fine in 10 man.

    And despite the lack of one, Paragon did their world first kills on 10 man with a Holy priest on most fights. Something a lot of the 'consensus' seems to forget :/

  12. #12
    Herald of the Titans Yilar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    2,846
    Quote Originally Posted by Themos View Post
    The only reason Disc ended up winning for most raiders was due to the Barrier raid cooldown, in 4.3 Holy has one.
    Aside from raid cooldowns, holy is fine in 10 man.

    And despite the lack of one, Paragon did their world first kills on 10 man with a Holy priest on most fights. Something a lot of the 'consensus' seems to forget :/
    You didn't bring disc priest for barrier in 10m, that was 25m. Lightwell is probably better than barrier in 10m. Also paragon 3 healed most of the easy bosses with good dps'ers carrying them. They could have brought 3 resto shamans still killed them, and i'm sure people would have gone resto shamans are OP, because Paragon used them.
    Last edited by Yilar; 2011-10-07 at 09:34 AM.

  13. #13
    Hey Zero. Here's my two cents: If you're talking about why people feel Disc OP, I can list a few reasons why I do.

    Infinite Mana - sadly, it's true. I can keep pace with most of the other healers in the raid, and end fights up near 100% mana...if not at 100% mana. That's up to and including Ragnaros. Of course, like with anything...if you have a raid that can't avoid fire, this changes.

    Shields - Not so much PW:S, although you do want to keep that on it's ICD for maximum mana. More importantly, divine aegis. In mostly 378, I can solidly crit a Greater Heal for 60,000 - 65,000, which adds another almost 30k divine aegis shield on the target. Effectively "healing" almost 100k in one heal.

    Power Word: Barrier - More necessary in Hardcore mode, it's a solid group damage reduction on a reasonably short cooldown.

    Now just from my experience, I feel that Holy lacks the ability to effectively Tank heal. Of course you can do it, but the overall HPS is lower. Actually, really thinking about it now, the only thing Holy has that I really miss, is Guardian Spirit for that (oh boy, tank just dipped low) moment. And actually, in hardcore mode...you pretty much two heal all but one or two of the fights, and having that extra mana/spell power (from being disc), close to infinite mana and huge tank/raids heals...it seems almost impossible for holy to compete.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by babylon View Post
    im afraid that my words may seem harsh, but, at the very moment of progression in firelands compared to progression of your priest, there really isnt much point of yours min/maxing to the point where you have to play spec you dont like as much as holy.

    atm every hc boss in 10man have been killed multiple times with holy priests and without discipline priests in raids.
    after the recent nerf of firelands bosses discipline cooldowns are nowhere near necessary.

    so just pick what you find more fun to play. even on baleroc hc, holy is far behind the disc but still can do the job fine. altho you might want to play discipline for the learning of this boss.
    pretty much this. TBH way too many people worry too much about HPS. in my experience a successful healer will get a through a fight with no one dying. End of story. that is a healers job. make sure people dont die. Holy has weak HPS compared to disc and say resto Druids, but i find holy alot more fun to play. and definately viable.

    Paragons world firsts have almost always got holy priests as well as disc(Holy is probably better than Disc for Rag). Holy has AWESOME aoe healing. Probably twice as good as disc anyone who thinks disc has good aoe comparable to holy is kidding themselves. but on the other hand, Disc is twice as good single target. its how they design the two specs to compliment eachother.
    Last edited by Sikizim; 2011-10-07 at 06:04 AM.

  15. #15
    Herald of the Titans Yilar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    2,846
    Quote Originally Posted by Sikizim View Post
    pretty much this. TBH way too many people worry too much about HPS. in my experience a successful healer will get a through a fight with no one dying. End of story. that is a healers job. make sure people dont die. Holy has weak HPS compared to disc and say resto Druids, but i find holy alot more fun to play. and definately viable.

    Paragons world firsts have almost always got holy priests as well as disc(Holy is probably better than Disc for Rag). Holy has AWESOME aoe healing. Probably twice as good as disc anyone who thinks disc has good aoe comparable to holy is kidding themselves. but on the other hand, Disc is twice as good single target. its how they design the two specs to compliment eachother.
    This is a 10m thread... What paragon does or did has no relevancy. Most fights in 10m don't require "AWESOME aoe healing". WoL tells us that 24 holy priests have done rag hc and 104 disc priests have done rag hc, somehow people don't agree with your thesis that "holy is probably better than disc for rag".

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Themos View Post
    And despite the lack of one, Paragon did their world first kills on 10 man with a Holy priest on most fights. Something a lot of the 'consensus' seems to forget :/
    That's only because of their comping for each fight... they two healed pretty much everything, and a paladin is almost required for that. Typically you'd want a R-Druid with the H-pally, but because they were using 2 boomkins on almost every fight, they went with a holy priest in stead. You can't expect other raid groups to be able to do the same thing.

    It had nothing to do with Holy Priest being strong, rather just a better compliment to a holy pally when two healing.

  17. #17
    With the majority of heroics needing to be two healed, you find yourself in a situation where you need to be both a tank and raid healer. Disc caters to this. While the first 6 heroic bosses are a joke now, and holy will perform quite well up to P4 Heroic Rag; I have found disc to be the CLEAR winner for P4. Easier to manage mana, better tank healing, shields for kiters, and moving from frost patch to patch, Pain Supp is better than Guardian Spirit as a tank CD, etc.

    It just comes down to better utility and CD's. Not to mention you can PI your DPS when you don't need it.
    Last edited by Irielle; 2011-10-07 at 05:56 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Yilar View Post
    This is a 10m thread... What paragon does or did has no relevancy. Most fights in 10m don't require "AWESOME aoe healing". WoL tells us that 24 holy priests have done rag hc and 104 disc priests have done rag hc, somehow people don't agree with your thesis that "holy is probably better than disc for rag".
    Wowprogress tells us that most of those guilds did the boss after the nerf when optimal healing setup doesn't matter at all. It was the same for Al'Akir HC, I thought Disc was better there at first after looking at WoL etc but after reading some and doing the fight, it became quite apparent that Disc was a joke compared to Holy.

    Quote Originally Posted by hikamiro View Post
    That's only because of their comping for each fight... they two healed pretty much everything, and a paladin is almost required for that. Typically you'd want a R-Druid with the H-pally, but because they were using 2 boomkins on almost every fight, they went with a holy priest in stead. You can't expect other raid groups to be able to do the same thing.

    It had nothing to do with Holy Priest being strong, rather just a better compliment to a holy pally when two healing.
    Get your facts straight. The only fight where they two healed with a priest was Rhyolith.

    We are progressing on Ragnaros heroic now and our priest has tried both specs and she finds Holy way better.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    We are progressing on Ragnaros heroic now and our priest has tried both specs and she finds Holy way better.
    Have you seen P4? Not trying to sound snotty or anything but if you haven't then of course Holy looks better. Its optimal for the first three phases, but the only phase that really matters (P4) disc shines like crazy. I say this having tried both and successfully killing him as disc.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Ayita View Post
    Have you seen P4? Not trying to sound snotty or anything but if you haven't then of course Holy looks better. Its optimal for the first three phases, but the only phase that really matters (P4) disc shines like crazy. I say this having tried both and successfully killing him as disc.
    When one does the fight with a holy paladin, I don't see how Disc would be better. Also, speed bubbles in phase 4 seem pretty good, don't you think? Have you tried using Heartsong as Holy? Might help with the mana issues. Honestly, phase 4 seems ridiculously easy if people just know how to kite and actually get into the frost patch. This is just an observation I've made. Though, the other phases are easy too.
    Last edited by Ariadne; 2011-10-07 at 07:15 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •