[Official] The Occupy Movement

[Munk]

@ op

I think by and large the "demands" they have are mostly "good" things however they are things which you really cant legislate. Good also doesnt mean I agree with them or think they should be implemented as I feel across the board they would do more harm then good.

Honestly I do like the idea of your average worker making 20$+ an hour, and infrastructure spending, removal of HMO's.

Some of the others like wiping out of all debts and killing of credit reporting agencies... not so much. Im not wealthy and I know my credits pretty shoddy, but even still its a response of MY actions and its on MY shoulders to clean up my name. Its not fair that I should take something (in this case money) and not have the expectations of not repaying it. What I DO however think would be good would be a maximum ammount of interest being charged. In my case income is very tight and we do make our payments but our debt never really falls.

Either way I think its idealogical bs. Some parts are nice to dream about but honestly if they want to be taken seriously they should simply be more reasonable in their demands.

I think its also kinda funny that many of the demands seem squared against big businesses, but then they advocate making the US largest business (the US federal Govt) even bigger. Even with the govt proving to be just as bad if not worse with money management than any big business.

[Willeonge]

I find it ironic that this movement is happening when I am taking a program in college focused on social movements in american history, so It'll be intresting to watch where it goes.

[Caiada]

If that list of demands posted earlier is anything like what the actual movement believes, then it's a sinking ship full of people who failed the hell out of HS macroeconomics classes.

[EmilMoore]

Cool thread.

[Arkhias]

http://occupywallst.org/forum/propos...all-st-moveme/

Sorry to say, but they're nutjobs. I would break down every one of their demands, but they're so insane there really isn't a point...

Did you not read the big disclaimer at the top?

"Admin note: This is not an official list of demands. This is a forum post submitted by a single user and hyped by irresponsible news/commentary agencies like Fox News and Mises.org. This content was not published by the OccupyWallSt.org collective, nor was it ever proposed or agreed to on a consensus basis with the NYC General Assembly. There is NO official list of demands."

[NeftBat]

Just looks like a bunch of people who either cant or wont take responsibility for thier own actions and want to blame the 'rich' for everything that is wrong. Thesse people are clueless. They cant see the forest for the trees. Its all just a load of crap really.

---------- Post added 2011-10-06 at 08:49 AM ----------

Taken from thier own website:

The American Dream has been stolen from the world. Workers are told that they aren't allowed health care, shelter, food. Students are told that they aren't allowed jobs, and that they will be in debt for the rest of their lives, unable to declare bankruptcy. The 1% has destroyed this nation and its values through their greed. The 1% has stolen this world. We will not allow this to occur.

Thats just a blatant lie. Its not even close to being true at all. Just complete crap.

[Tstr88]

They are just the Democratic Tea Party. At least it'll help the Democrats sort out the true members and the insane nutjobs, I suppose.

Hit the nail on the head.

[dd614]

There are a lot of good messages like ending the federal reserve. Unfortunately, the movement is mostly made up of communist, anti-capitalist, union-thugs and anti-Semites. The left has done a great job taking control of what could have been a great movement.

[ptwonline]

Unlike the Tea Party, OWS is an actual grassroots movement. That's why it seems disorganized, lacking in focus, and sort of all over the place: because it is not centrally planned and organized by a few well-funded sponsors seeking a specific political outcome.

Generally speaking though, they are mad about:

1. What Wall St did to the American citizens (screwed them over)
2. What gov't did in response (saved Wall St, allowed the ordinary folks to twist in the wind)
3. The incredible--and rapidly growing--disparity between the very few wealthy and everyone else, and the wealthy trying to get even more of the pie
4. Unlimited, secret corporate money in political campaigns to buy politicians to an extent that could never be done before, and that helped create and perpetuate the three points above

Unless the OWS movement gets some more organization and focus it is not going to amount to much because there is no focused action to create a sore point that anyone has to deal with, and because their message is muddled. And people need to start viewing this not just as a left wing protest. The things they are protesting are affecting and hurting Americans from the far left to the far right of the political spectrum. The difference seems to be that conservative talking heads--in bed with the wealthy and the corporations--are not surprisingly deriding the movement and so their followers do the same.

[gualdhar]

The one thing I've been hearing over and over with the OWS movement is ending corporate influence in elections, which can't be a bad thing. The government is supposed to stand and fight for the interests of its citizens as a whole, not the interests of a few elites that can afford to bankroll key politicians' elections.

Honestly, if that happened, the rest would probably sort itself out.

[Jaxi]

They have too many agendas, they will and can not change anything, and they inconvenience average working people just to get attention. I stopped supporting them when they blocked the Brooklyn bridge. Causing traffic ain't cool....

---------- Post added 2011-10-06 at 04:10 PM ----------

I completely agree with that. Our President, the head of government, is nothing more than a figure-head. The top 1% of the people own 99% of the wealth, and those same people are the essentially SNIP

But about what Poodles said, from the outside looking in, this would seem as if it is veering closer to a dictatorship or something It's been a while since I had a class over government types.

He was referring to the fact that we are a republic, not a democracy. Fundamental difference there. How can you begin to speculate on the future of the government when you don't even know what system we are?

Guys seriously... We aren't a democracy. Never have been. Please please please stop confusing the two!

[NeftBat]

Unlike the Tea Party, OWS is an actual grassroots movement. That's why it seems disorganized, lacking in focus, and sort of all over the place: because it is not centrally planned and organized by a few well-funded sponsors seeking a specific political outcome.

Generally speaking though, they are mad about:

1. What Wall St did to the American citizens (screwed them over)
2. What gov't did in response (saved Wall St, allowed the ordinary folks to twist in the wind)
3. The incredible--and rapidly growing--disparity between the very few wealthy and everyone else, and the wealthy trying to get even more of the pie
4. Unlimited, secret corporate money in political campaigns to buy politicians to an extent that could never be done before, and that helped create and perpetuate the three points above

Unless the OWS movement gets some more organization and focus it is not going to amount to much because there is no focused action to create a sore point that anyone has to deal with, and because their message is muddled. And people need to start viewing this not just as a left wing protest. The things they are protesting are affecting and hurting Americans from the far left to the far right of the political spectrum. The difference seems to be that conservative talking heads--in bed with the wealthy and the corporations--are not surprisingly deriding the movement and so their followers do the same.

1.If 'Wall St' did any thing illegal or unethical then there are agencies they have to answer too. There have been several people that have been prosecuted and have gone to jail. Being 'rich' does not exclude them from the law. To say that 'Wall St' has screwed America over is an exageration. Most people who are in the group reffered to as 'Wall St' are good people and the burden of proof is on you to show otherwise.

2.Alot of people didn't want this, but it happened. And it cant unhappen. It deffenately had short term benefits, though most would agree it still wasn't right. Hopefully next time we are in a similar situation, because there will be a next time, the people in power make the right choice.

3.The wealth gap in this country is defenately a problem, there is no getting around that, but its also a symptom of a larger problem. Alot of people want to blame the 'rich' for the wealth gap in America, but there is really no logic in that. Too many people today think that thier problems are caused by how much money the 'rich' have, or how the government spends money, or how the 'rich' are some how above the rules the rest of us must follow. This isnt true at all. The majority of milionaire households in this country today are first generation milioniares. Meaning that they faced the same general problems as everyone else, they were just smarter.

The wealth gap comes largely from ignorance. Finacial ignorance to be specific. To many Americans today dont have a monthly written budget, dont plan for big purchases, go into debt when they shouldn't, dont save for retirement until thier 40's or later, dont have an emergency fund set up(because emergencies will happen), dont have the self discipline to say no to things they cant afford, and dont know how to manage money at all.

That is why there is a wealth gap. If you are hurting finacially today then chances are overwhelmingly likely that you are the biggest reason for it. Not the rich. Not the government. You. Its time people started taking personal responsibility for thier lives, including thier financial lives, and actaully think for once.

4. Eh wall-o-text is big enough I'll just stop here.

[Poodles]

Did you not read the big disclaimer at the top?

"Admin note: This is not an official list of demands. This is a forum post submitted by a single user and hyped by irresponsible news/commentary agencies like Fox News and Mises.org. This content was not published by the OccupyWallSt.org collective, nor was it ever proposed or agreed to on a consensus basis with the NYC General Assembly. There is NO official list of demands."

LOL, they must have just added that. Cute.

But it does confirm my "flash mob" thought of their movement.

Seriously, if the President showed up and got on a bullhorn asking them what they want, they'd all look like a bunch of morons.

[Wells]

Its nice to see protests about real problems like corporate fraud, lobbying, and wealth disparity.

Not you know, Planned Parenthood and Muslims

[BLCalliente]

Some of the others like wiping out of all debts and killing of credit reporting agencies... not so much. Im not wealthy and I know my credits pretty shoddy, but even still its a response of MY actions and its on MY shoulders to clean up my name. Its not fair that I should take something (in this case money) and not have the expectations of not repaying it. What I DO however think would be good would be a maximum ammount of interest being charged. In my case income is very tight and we do make our payments but our debt never really falls.

Q: What is the difference between you and your debt they you created through bad decision making, and the banks debt which they created through bad decision making?

A: Nothing, except they were willing to take the bailout with no consequences, no intention of paying back, and no new regulation.

[Munk]

BL,

The difference is that I dont believe in govt bailoluts for corporations either, they happened and not much I can do about it but as for me and my own I expect to repay any and every debt I incur in my life its part of being a grown up and taking responsibility for yourself.

I dont like the situation we constantly find ourselves in and I hate that our politicians dont have the balls to let big companies fail for their bad business practices. It does leave a bad taste in my mouth that we as americans have gotten so used to someone else cleaning up our mistkaes that we no longer have the stomach to tough things out which to me is a far greater indicator that weve lost part of that great american spirit that used to triumph over all.

I love my country, I hate its current govt. I feel for all its checks and balances that its corrupt beyond all; No I dont mean everyone taking bribes but rather that they cant make hard decisions because they are all worried about being re elected.

[Noakh]

I've already posted where it started, your link isn't it. Not to mention it's 2 years old. Also, several of their demands contradict eachother, and some aren't reasonable at all.

Just a note, That post isn't 2 years old. The 2009 in the link refers to the 20th of September.

[Viradiance]

Perhaps I'm just a naive, ignorant college student, but I feel that they are at worst, quite inspiring, and at best, people who are willing to stand up for unfair levels of taxation.

It strikes me that the richest 1% shouldn't pay less in taxes then most average people. Pure, simple wealthmongering.

But that's my two cents. Again, naive, ignorant college student here.

[Munk]

It strikes me that the richest 1% shouldn't pay less in taxes then most average people. Pure, simple wealthmongering.

This is an honest question; im not fishing for something other than your honest response. What evidence do you have that supports that statement? I hear it all the time and I know there are some very creative accountants out there but even still ive never seen any actual evidence that this is true. If you can shed some light id appreciate it.

[ptwonline]

1.If 'Wall St' did any thing illegal or unethical then there are agencies they have to answer too. There have been several people that have been prosecuted and have gone to jail. Being 'rich' does not exclude them from the law. To say that 'Wall St' has screwed America over is an exageration. Most people who are in the group reffered to as 'Wall St' are good people and the burden of proof is on you to show otherwise.

Three problems:
1. Regulators have been made effectively powerless over many things, thanks to politicians who were successfully lobbied by the people who were meant to be regulated
2. Regulators have become corrupted by the industries they were meant to regulate, mostly because they can be promised cushy private sector jobs by being favorable to them while still in the public sector
3. Since the politicians are already bought, there is little or no political impetus to have more comprehensive regulatory action taken to crack down on the wrongdoing. As a result, the "Wall St reforms" so touted by Obama do almost nothing.

2.Alot of people didn't want this, but it happened. And it cant unhappen. It deffenately had short term benefits, though most would agree it still wasn't right. Hopefully next time we are in a similar situation, because there will be a next time, the people in power make the right choice.

I agree--Wall St had to be saved. But at the same time some kind of regulations or serious changes needed to be put in place to make sure that they didn't have to get saved like this again. If the gov't has to guarantee banks but few provisions are put in place to make sure they don't fail again, then we'd be better off with banks becoming nationalized so that the taxpayer not only has the risks to pay for, but the profits to make those risks worthwhile.

Furthermore, a large chunk of the economic problem going on right now is because the economic crash and the housing bubble cratered home values, and people either can't make their payments or are underwater in their mortgages. Instead of making banks help out these people by restructuring the mortagages the banks should never have given out in the first place, banks got their help and homeowners are mostly left to struggle on their own.

3.The wealth gap in this country is defenately a problem, there is no getting around that, but its also a symptom of a larger problem. Alot of people want to blame the 'rich' for the wealth gap in America, but there is really no logic in that. Too many people today think that thier problems are caused by how much money the 'rich' have, or how the government spends money, or how the 'rich' are some how above the rules the rest of us must follow. This isnt true at all. The majority of milionaire households in this country today are first generation milioniares. Meaning that they faced the same general problems as everyone else, they were just smarter.

The wealth gap comes largely from ignorance. Finacial ignorance to be specific. To many Americans today dont have a monthly written budget, dont plan for big purchases, go into debt when they shouldn't, dont save for retirement until thier 40's or later, dont have an emergency fund set up(because emergencies will happen), dont have the self discipline to say no to things they cant afford, and dont know how to manage money at all.

That is why there is a wealth gap. If you are hurting finacially today then chances are overwhelmingly likely that you are the biggest reason for it. Not the rich. Not the government. You. Its time people started taking personal responsibility for thier lives, including thier financial lives, and actaully think for once.

I heartily disagree. People weren't financially more astute in previous decades. They had good jobs available and were able to make a decent living at those jobs.

The rich have become so wealthy and the rest so relatively poor not at the fault of the masses, but because the wealthy control the game. They have strong influence in the policies that allow them pay less and less taxes which ends up gutting services and making everyone else poorer, move jobs offshore without penalty which obviously kills jobs and has been decimating the middle class, get massive subsidies for already strong and profitable industries, reduce regulation and environmental standards for their own profit and with the risks and costs falling on everyone else, and so on.

Protests like OWS is an embryonic attempt to get some more balance restored. To make sure the ordinary folk have a bit more say about the division of wealth in society, and about who gets to make the rules. The rich and their political mouthpieces decry "class warfare", but that's only because they already won the class war and don't want to see it start up again.

4. Eh wall-o-text is big enough I'll just stop here.

Too bad you stopped there. The money in politics is the most critical point, and is the source for a large amount of the problems in society and politics these days and certainly prevents solutions because the peopel in charge of finding solutions are owned by one side.

---------- Post added 2011-10-06 at 05:02 PM ----------

This is an honest question; im not fishing for something other than your honest response. What evidence do you have that supports that statement? I hear it all the time and I know there are some very creative accountants out there but even still ive never seen any actual evidence that this is true. If you can shed some light id appreciate it.

The wealthy make a lot of their income in capital gains. Capital gains are taxed at a lower rate than most personal taxation rates. Capital gains (often not true investment but simply funneling money in and out so that it gets counted as Capital Gains) are one of the creative ways that the wealthy shelter their income from taxes, and end up paying much lower effective rates than they would be otherwise.

No, not all the rich pay lower taxes. Not all of them get every kind of tax shelter, and some earn their money in ways not as easy to shelter. However, for the mega-rich in particular, their tax rates tend to be suprisingly low.