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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by foibooze View Post
    I do realize that Sunfyre, it does however give you and your raid a bigger benefit, what do you need that mana for? There is no fight where you will possibly run oom if you self-innervate. Ending fights at 100% mana as dps or making sure healers use less mana.
    Well, to be fair, who says you need to self-innervate?

    Furor actually scales well with innervate whether or not you give it away or keep it. In situations where you need mana, you can innervate yourself for huge Euphoria gains (You should only need 0-1 per fight), and you can feed the rest of your innervates to healers if they're struggling with mana. Three points in furor means you'll be feeding healers 11.5% of your non-Furor'ed mana pool, as opposed to the normal flat 10%. That'll have more of an impact on healer mana that a tiny damage taken decrease from 1 player in a 10 or 25 man raid.

    Edit: I think I just convinced myself to make the switch. Go figure.

  2. #42
    Sorry, so cuz YOU convinced/confused yourself to make the switch I should recognize this as a truth and do it myself. Check.
    Reduced dmg taken is king. With or without innervates you yourself will not oom. ATM neither do healers.

    See, I just convinced myself that my prior statement made more sense than yours. Go figure.

    EDIT: I have no clue what your innervate does for your euphoria gains.

  3. #43
    The Patient Marcadius's Avatar
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    Furor does help make innervate a bit stronger and i like it depending on the scenarion. At this point in progression 3/3furor 3/3 perseverance, whichever you chose is detrimental, some ppl have mana issues go furor some ppl have to soak or have bad healer or bad situational awarkness go perseverance, dead dps <low dps. so id say its situational. so you guys can agree that both are good depending on individual needs at least.
    This bro quit the game but still loves the game and will be back for MoP!

  4. #44
    As far as the little "argument" between sepe and that other guy. This really cant be disputed in anyway shape or form. With hurricane and a well timed typhoon you can do anywhere from 500k-1mill more damage using those spells. I myself was on the fence about it and am now getting 500kish using this techniques. When your working to get past p2 consistently, this is extremely important, as it gives everyone more time to place themselves for engulfing seeds and nuke to 40% faster.

  5. #45
    Hello guys,

    First of all - a little background. I rolled a boomkin just for Firelands and especially for Rag HC since we had 0 of those in the guild.
    It is my first range character, I don't assume I am mega-pro or anything. I have more or less good awareness of what is happening around me, but I am a bit clumsy, which will improve with more playtime. I started with around 20k dps with troll-heroics gear, but my dps hasn't improved significantly with more firelands gear which is bugging me.

    Here is the armory - http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...azikk/advanced
    Logs from last night - Majordomo HC kill + our first attempts on Rag HC (bad, I know but that's another topic) - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/5hj2oad4s81fs2bt/

    Please, shamelessly bash me about anything you find. You can assume I am familiar with the basics. Any criticism is appreciated (if it's constructive I'd be a happy lazer chicken).

    Edit: I don't have any situation or task in mind. My hopes are that you can point out something I am doing wrong. I know that boomkin is a situation-dependent spec, but I think one can expect more than what I am doing in general.
    Last edited by Hornhollow; 2011-10-11 at 12:03 PM.

  6. #46
    first: too many blue gems, second, int on bracers =) Good uptime on moon/sunfire (although so much more of moonfire than sunfire suggests something terribly wrong with your eclipsetransitions or atleast the applying of dots in them), not so good uptime on insect swarm.

    Again, I'm quite bad at logs (could someone tell me how to sort through the actual log by player name?)

    It seems that you didn't even dot staghelm b4 you started going for eclipse though, which will have quite an impact on your dps. Neither do I see any pot uptime.


    I'll see if I have time to go through it again later.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by TiredTofu View Post
    Well, to be fair, who says you need to self-innervate?
    Three points in furor means you'll be feeding healers 11.5% of your non-Furor'ed mana pool, as opposed to the normal flat 10%. That'll have more of an impact on healer mana that a tiny damage taken decrease from 1 player in a 10 or 25 man raid.
    Innervate was changed to only give the target 5% of their mana pool these days, the size of the casting druids mana pool is not relevant.

  8. #48
    High Overlord
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    Hey mate, you just need more moonkin play time and practice. You will get better overtime. Though some advice:

    You are doing barely any mushroom damage. You need to use those on the Molten Elementals and intelligently on the Sons of Flame. Dont hurricane.
    I see you've casted more moonfire's then sunfire's which should never happen, on raggy atleast. If add phases are incoming, BE IN SOLAR ECLIPSE!
    DPSing raggy is a bitch when entering lunar eclipse: When you casted your last wrath, and will enter lunar eclipse when it hits, hardcast a starsurge then starfire then ISS MF and you will barely lose dps.

    Moar practice will make u better. GL from Joeri - Neptulon - Night elf!

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by foibooze View Post
    first: too many blue gems, second, int on bracers =) Good uptime on moon/sunfire (although so much more of moonfire than sunfire suggests something terribly wrong with your eclipsetransitions or atleast the applying of dots in them), not so good uptime on insect swarm.

    Again, I'm quite bad at logs (could someone tell me how to sort through the actual log by player name?)

    It seems that you didn't even dot staghelm b4 you started going for eclipse though, which will have quite an impact on your dps. Neither do I see any pot uptime.


    I'll see if I have time to go through it again later.
    Basically I aim for the socket bonus as a rule of thumb. I know that usually 10 int socket bonus is not worth it and socketing 40 instead will be slightly better but I am having problems with the hit cap anyway and using purple gems is better than reforging haste to spirit, I think.
    The bracers enchant is my bad... Totally forgot about it.
    I know that I should be aiming at dotting during eclipses, but what when the dots ran out before I have reached said eclipse?
    And I probably need more practice with the shrooms... Not quite used to them yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joeri2 View Post
    Hey mate, you just need more moonkin play time and practice. You will get better overtime. Though some advice:

    You are doing barely any mushroom damage. You need to use those on the Molten Elementals and intelligently on the Sons of Flame. Dont hurricane.
    I see you've casted more moonfire's then sunfire's which should never happen, on raggy atleast. If add phases are incoming, BE IN SOLAR ECLIPSE!
    DPSing raggy is a bitch when entering lunar eclipse: When you casted your last wrath, and will enter lunar eclipse when it hits, hardcast a starsurge then starfire then ISS MF and you will barely lose dps.

    Moar practice will make u better. GL from Joeri - Neptulon - Night elf!
    Thanks. On add phases I aim for using shrooms in solar and then starfall in lunar or the other way around as fast as I can. I will try your suggestion when we start doing Raggy phase 2 more often.
    One more thing - is it worth getting 3/3 Lunar Shower for World in Flames dancing and if yes - how do I utilize that?

  10. #50
    I have a question regarding Moonwell Chalice use effect and the benefits (or not) of using this trinket on Ragnaros Heroic.

    So my question will be:
    When you pop it before entering solar eclipse (Which is really where you want to be during phase2). It boosts my Solar Eclipse to 79%, you can see that while hoovering mouse over the Solar Eclipse buff icon. However, what I'm having trouble finding out is if you actually maintain that buff when the Moonwell Chalice buff ends or not, because the Solar eclipse buff still states 79%. I'm guessing it's just a tooltip error (Won't update until next time I enter Solar eclipse). But with all the shit going on in that fight (Running avoiding smash/waves and whatnot) the last thing I'm looking at is my damage when popping them.

    Would really like to know, because atm I can't say I notice any change in damage from swapping between VLPC and Moonwell Chalice.

    Also would like a comment on Molten Elemental damage done here
    From our best attempt yet where we finally got to P3 for the first time:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i...=12390&e=13064
    Scroll down to "Damage Taken From", obviously.
    Last edited by Hierty; 2011-10-11 at 02:50 PM. Reason: Additional info.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Hornhollow View Post
    Basically I aim for the socket bonus as a rule of thumb. I know that usually 10 int socket bonus is not worth it and socketing 40 instead will be slightly better but I am having problems with the hit cap anyway and using purple gems is better than reforging haste to spirit, I think.
    The bracers enchant is my bad... Totally forgot about it.
    I know that I should be aiming at dotting during eclipses, but what when the dots ran out before I have reached said eclipse?
    And I probably need more practice with the shrooms... Not quite used to them yet.

    Thanks. On add phases I aim for using shrooms in solar and then starfall in lunar or the other way around as fast as I can. I will try your suggestion when we start doing Raggy phase 2 more often.
    One more thing - is it worth getting 3/3 Lunar Shower for World in Flames dancing and if yes - how do I utilize that?
    In your unique situation you are gemed correctly. It depends what set of stat values you are looking at, however from what I see in most value tables for moonkins 2 haste > or = to 1 int. Hit ratings value changes based off of what you can reforge, right now with the lack of hit rating on your gear, each one of those spirit gems are worth the same as haste gems, when you get new gear and never have to reforge any potential or actual haste into more hit the value on those spirit gems becomes worth the same as mastery, and are then a dps loss.

    As for the dotting, there are a few different ways of tackeling the issue. The easiest way to "fix" the uptime is to iss / moonfire once per eclipse, your dots end up losing 2-4 seconds of uptime but with haste in the 2200-2500 area that's what most people do.

    For rag, if you are doing normal the timers really change based on how the groups dps is, however, in HM the timers are the same for almost every team doing it. It is very easy to be in solar for both transitions and every seed phase. If you are just starting on rag I would hold the lunar shower, It has the potential to be good if you use it correctly, but it's generally more trouble than it's worth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hierty View Post
    I have a question regarding Moonwell Chalice use effect and the benefits (or not) of using this trinket on Ragnaros Heroic.

    So my question will be:
    When you pop it before entering solar eclipse (Which is really where you want to be during phase2). It boosts my Solar Eclipse to 79%, you can see that while hoovering mouse over the Solar Eclipse buff icon. However, what I'm having trouble finding out is if you actually maintain that buff when the Moonwell Chalice buff ends or not, because the Solar eclipse buff still states 79%. I'm guessing it's just a tooltip error (Won't update until next time I enter Solar eclipse). But with all the shit going on in that fight (Running avoiding smash/waves and whatnot) the last thing I'm looking at is my damage when popping them.

    Would really like to know, because atm I can't say I notice any change in damage from swapping between VLPC and Moonwell Chalice.

    Also would like a comment on Molten Elemental damage done here
    From our best attempt yet where we finally got to P3 for the first time:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i...=12390&e=13064
    Scroll down to "Damage Taken From", obviously.
    Mastery is dynamic with your eclipse (meaning that it doesn't matter what your mastery is going into an eclipse, but what your mastery is at the time you damage in an eclipse), the tooltip is wrong. What kind of info were you looking to know about your ME damage? it's slightly lower than I would expect, but unless you give something specific i'm not sure what you would like to know.
    Last edited by Moogrum; 2011-10-11 at 05:48 PM.

  12. #52
    Should have specified, apologies. Forgot to post armory link as well. So here it is:
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Hierty/simple Didn't have the staff until after yesterdays raid so please ignore it.

    You basically answered my question though, sort of. I wanted to know if my damage was lower than expected, and if it's lower, what can I do to push even more numbers.

    What I'm doing atm:
    1)Make sure that I'm in Solar Eclipse for the duration of P2.**
    2)Put down Wild Mushrooms in the center of the seeds.
    3) About 2-3 Seconds before Molten Elementals spawn I start channeling Hurricane to get 1-2 ticks off.
    4) Detonate Shrooms
    5) Pop Starfall (Ready for every wave if timed right)
    6) Typhoon
    7) Spam Sunfire while running away from them.

    Rince and Repeat.

    **We're struggeling with setup and getting enough people online for raids these days, which makes it important that we have as much AoE as possible for them, hence why I try to stay in solar for the whole duration so we don't end up wiping due to not enough aoe damage. There is usually not enough time to go all the way to Lunar Eclipse and back to Solar Eclipse for each wave.

  13. #53
    There is usually not enough time to go all the way to Lunar Eclipse and back to Solar Eclipse for each wave.
    Something you can try if you want to play conservatively is detonating the first wave at the very start of solar eclipse. Like this: [-----|----<]. You can then move to the end of solar for the next wave; [-----|<----]. That should give you plenty of time to move back to the start of solar again for the third wave.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Hierty View Post
    Should have specified, apologies. Forgot to post armory link as well. So here it is:
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Hierty/simple Didn't have the staff until after yesterdays raid so please ignore it.

    You basically answered my question though, sort of. I wanted to know if my damage was lower than expected, and if it's lower, what can I do to push even more numbers.

    What I'm doing atm:
    1)Make sure that I'm in Solar Eclipse for the duration of P2.**
    2)Put down Wild Mushrooms in the center of the seeds.
    3) About 2-3 Seconds before Molten Elementals spawn I start channeling Hurricane to get 1-2 ticks off.
    4) Detonate Shrooms
    5) Pop Starfall (Ready for every wave if timed right)
    6) Typhoon
    7) Spam Sunfire while running away from them.

    Rince and Repeat.

    **We're struggeling with setup and getting enough people online for raids these days, which makes it important that we have as much AoE as possible for them, hence why I try to stay in solar for the whole duration so we don't end up wiping due to not enough aoe damage. There is usually not enough time to go all the way to Lunar Eclipse and back to Solar Eclipse for each wave.
    there is more than enough time to go back and forth for each seed however if you dont want to staying in solar is fine, if you are staying in solar, i would say drop shrooms more in the middle, allowing you to get more out of your hurricane. the main thing is just placing the shrooms in a good spot to make sure that your shrooms will hit the bulk of them

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Hierty View Post
    Should have specified, apologies. Forgot to post armory link as well. So here it is:
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Hierty/simple Didn't have the staff until after yesterdays raid so please ignore it.

    You basically answered my question though, sort of. I wanted to know if my damage was lower than expected, and if it's lower, what can I do to push even more numbers.

    What I'm doing atm:
    1)Make sure that I'm in Solar Eclipse for the duration of P2.**
    2)Put down Wild Mushrooms in the center of the seeds.
    3) About 2-3 Seconds before Molten Elementals spawn I start channeling Hurricane to get 1-2 ticks off.
    4) Detonate Shrooms
    5) Pop Starfall (Ready for every wave if timed right)
    6) Typhoon
    7) Spam Sunfire while running away from them.

    Rince and Repeat.

    **We're struggeling with setup and getting enough people online for raids these days, which makes it important that we have as much AoE as possible for them, hence why I try to stay in solar for the whole duration so we don't end up wiping due to not enough aoe damage. There is usually not enough time to go all the way to Lunar Eclipse and back to Solar Eclipse for each wave.
    When you're hurricaning you want to put your shrooms ~5 yds in front of the elementals. Also, you should be running on step 4 for better positioning later on. No reason to not be moving while using your instants.

  16. #56
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    What Moog said was true since he ran the numbers, but generally since int is much stronger than haste, you'd rather sacrifice 10 haste for spirit instead of 10 int.

    Sunfyre | Blog | Twitter

  17. #57
    First of all I'd like to thank people for the help at heroic rag, I've managed to do better lately (we're down to 2 seeds, which helps a ton). I'm still a bit unhappy about my single target damage, even more so because even on the dummy I don't pull the numbers I'd expect. I have the following questions. I realize they are (at least partially) answered in either the guide here or at EJ, but posts from people-who-seem-to-know-what-thery're-talking-about(tm) make me uncertain if maybe the guides are outdated or just simplifying things.

    1) What's a trusty tool to compute your dps expectations? I've used wrathcalcs, but it puts out higher numbers even on the dummys than I can produce by quite a margin (yes, I've taken care of all configuration options).

    2) What's the best point to be using Force of Nature? In the past I've used it in solar to extend the time the dots run before I refresh them before solar's end, but then I read I should use them during damage procs + pot, but the guides say that doesn't make sense... Really confusing! Should I use them while moving, even if that makes me maybe miss 1 more application during the fight?

    3) How many targets do the mushrooms need to hit to be worthwile planting over a hardcast? How many if you're not in solar?

    4) When do I refresh dots? I did ask that before and get an answer, but I do find that more often than not just applying them at the beginning of eclipse would mean quite a high downtime due to rng with interrupt/running/putting out innvervate or tranquility. Are there definitive numbers available how much downtime is acceptable?

    Thanks again for any help

  18. #58
    1) As far as Wrathcalcs giving very high numbers, have you edited your Cast Delay? I've found doing that ties up pretty closely with what I'm able to achieve single target. Obviously, the sheet does make several assumptions (such as the fight being Patchwerk, trinkets averaged out when you can get lucky/unlucky with proc timing, etc). As an example, without altering this, in my gear I get 33057 which I would find pretty difficult to achieve, however if I put in my typical ping (usually around 75 ms, or 0.075) it gives me 31357, which is much closer to my real world output.

    Simcraft is your other option, which does tend to give lower numbers as they can take account of things like a proc going off just after you leave Solar or something.

    2) Making sure you tie them up with Heroism/Bloodlust is the biggest one, after that probably want to save them for when you have trinkets about to come off ICD and your second potion available, or to tie up with other fight mechanics (i.e. boss is taking increased damage, etc). For longer fights (basically only Heroic Ragnaros in T12) I use mine in P1 to help push for 3 traps and P3 to push for 1 meteor. In P4 you'd ideally be using them to cross over with procs + Rag being in a trap, I guess (I handle Dreadflame for our guild during this phase).

    3) This really depends on the fight situation, and if you're in Solar. I can't think of any times it's worthwhile in T12 to drop mushrooms for low target number mobs, for things like Scions/etc you're better using the GCDs for double dotting.

    4) Basically, the ideal is to be using 1 set of DOTs per Eclipse, however that's still pretty difficult to achieve at the current levels of haste outside of Heroism/Bloodlust or Engineering clicky/Troll racial or lucky Euphoria procs. Outside of those situations, the general concensus is that you refresh at the start of Solar, just as you leave Solar with NG still up, then when those DOTs run out in Lunar and make your way back to Solar. It's not set in stone, though, you have to be reactive and make decisions as you go. Wrath travel time has a lot to do with it too (i.e. you can refresh DOTs while the Wrath taking you out of Solar is still in the air, etc). As far as downtime, 90%+ is what you see on most of the better parses. Obviously, on fights with big gaps between single target phases, this is obviously lower.

  19. #59
    Thanks for your helpfull answers, tecton. I'll check out Cast Delay, not sure what I did choose. But the difference in Damage is around what you're talking about (in the 5-15% ballpark), so that might be it, although my latency is usually better.

    Outside of those situations, the general concensus is that you refresh at the start of Solar, just as you leave Solar with NG still up, then when those DOTs run out in Lunar and make your way back to Solar. It's not set in stone, though, you have to be reactive and make decisions as you go.
    Yeah it's those decisions on the go I'm thinking about. What if I can't refresh dots at the end of solar with NG up... do I do it without NG? Or do I just leave them, refresh outside of eclipse (they won't run until lunar in that case) and keep on going? What if I don't reach solar soon enough and the dots run out, how many seconds of downtime should I accept?

  20. #60
    If you're going with that strategy, you basically always want to refresh DOTs while NG is up. Even if you can't, you should only have 1-2 casts of downtime anyway, which is generally ok, if not ideal. If you're getting much more uptime than that, you're going to need to start thinking about recasting without NG, but you should basically aim to always recast at the right time. If your initial set of DOTs was heavily boosted by procs, it's less of an issue to have a few moments of downtime.

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