Does anyone actually care about 10man H progression?

[Dragoncurry]

10 mans are a joke. 25 mans are a joke. Just go play a harder game if you care about being "good" at gaming.

[Jinto]

Plenty of 25m guilds farm 10m H Rag on their alts. Cant find a 10m guild that does the same lol. It is ironic that my alt probably has earlier 10m kill date this and last tier than 99% of the people claiming 10m is serious business. Top guilds will always be 25m unless 10m is much easier for obvious reasons.

[Brakthir]

I think there were maybe 2 or 3 fights in Tier 11 heroic considered to be more overtuned than their 25man counterpart, one of them being Sinestra. Blizzard balancing as far as 10v25 is usually hit or miss, and frankly Tier 12 with the sole exception of Rag was such a joke that it didn't really matter.

[herpecin]

even if blizz somehow makes 25 and 10 the same difficulty, which currently its about split as to which are harder on 25 or harder on 10, 25s will always be harder from a logistical standpoint. and when you are trying to see who is the best, the real competition will be those that take on the most difficult method.

[Antherios]

In mechanics there isnt that much difference in my opinion.

The hard part of the 25s is finding 24, not idiotic, focused, willing to take directions and learn from mistakes kind of people. All that extra effort for the same ilvl loot, thats why 25mans are dying in my realm. People don't care about getting 25s together anymore, if they can faceroll 10s and get the same loot.

[hx9]

10 mans are harder and less forgiving than 25 mans. The only difficulty in 25 mans is finding 25 people, then it's easier.

H Shannox - 10 man has less people to break Rageface, less utility BOPs, less immolation trap soakers / disarmers, less flexibility in healing distribution for MT, OT, raid.

H Rhylo - 10 man has less flexibility in healing, less flexibility distribution of DPS to AOE and legs, less knockbacks and slow utility for oozes

H Alysrazor - 10 man has less flexibility in players going up vs. staying on the ground, less flexibility in healing distribution, less kicks available for the cast per mob that spawns, less group CDs available for the AOE in the final phase.

H Beth - 10 man has less flexibility in players going up vs. staying on the ground, healer distribution, less available players per broodling spawns to soak them, less flexibility to distribute AOErs.

H Bael - 10 man has far less healer flexibility, less DPS / crystal to rotate in (25 is 9.5 people / crystal, 10 man is 7 people / crystal) which means that even if 4 people die in 25, you can still do the crystals, higher ratio of tank to DPS, causing tank DPS to matter a lot more.

H Major Domo - 10 man has less flexibility in soaking the orbs but this is made up for in that the space in 25 man is much more constrained. This is the only fight where space matters so much that 10 man may actually be easier.

H Rag - 10 man and 25 have pretty equal advantages and disadvantages. Magma trap is easier on 10, lava seeds on 25, intermissions on 25, meteors are about the same, phase 4 goes a little bit to 10 in that it's easier to get in the frost patches, but your player distribution for the cloudburst is 10% of your raid instead of 4%, making the DPS requirement easier.

The only reason people think 25 man is so much harder is that there are more people... but if you have 25 good players who don't stand in fire, the flexibility of 25 man makes 5 of the 7 fights easier.

[Deleted]

I..uh. What? They're really not as difficult as 25mans, with the exception of very few fights (Sarth 3D, certain fights in tier 11). They're usually tuned to a much easier degree than 25man raids.

They seem easier when you have a perfect setup. 10m's are balanced that not every raid will have all available buffs, loads of raid cooldowns etc. Most 10m raids lack some buffs that 25m take for granted. When you are, for instance, pushing Baleroc heroic, the lack of 10% spellpower is significant. But with hat buff it suddenly becomes much more reachable. If you stack the raid with caster dps and make sure all caster dps buffs/debuffs are covered you will pull more dps then a normal "balanced" raid with a few melee, few casters and not every buff covered. Yet the latter situation is simply the reality for most 10m guilds.

Now if you make a guild for progression in 10m's you have a pool of players to pick from so you can customize the raid for every boss. But then you run into the problem of gearing.

[Jinto]

10 mans are harder and less forgiving than 25 mans. The only difficulty in 25 mans is finding 25 people, then it's easier.

H Shannox - 10 man has less people to break Rageface, less utility BOPs, less immolation trap soakers / disarmers, less flexibility in healing distribution for MT, OT, raid.

H Rhylo - 10 man has less flexibility in healing, less flexibility distribution of DPS to AOE and legs, less knockbacks and slow utility for oozes

H Alysrazor - 10 man has less flexibility in players going up vs. staying on the ground, less flexibility in healing distribution, less kicks available for the cast per mob that spawns, less group CDs available for the AOE in the final phase.

H Beth - 10 man has less flexibility in players going up vs. staying on the ground, healer distribution, less available players per broodling spawns to soak them, less flexibility to distribute AOErs.

H Bael - 10 man has far less healer flexibility, less DPS / crystal to rotate in (25 is 9.5 people / crystal, 10 man is 7 people / crystal) which means that even if 4 people die in 25, you can still do the crystals, higher ratio of tank to DPS, causing tank DPS to matter a lot more.

H Major Domo - 10 man has less flexibility in soaking the orbs but this is made up for in that the space in 25 man is much more constrained. This is the only fight where space matters so much that 10 man may actually be easier.

Something tells me you've never done 25m H Baleroc pre-nerf. That was actually kind of hard unlike the loot pinata that is called 6/7H Firelands in both 10 and 25m (even pre-nerf).

[Emerya]

Name one 10man tier 12 fight considered harder than it's 25man equivalent.

Heroic Beth'tilac before they nerfed it twice comes to mind. Probably the only one though, but as someone that raids 10m and hasn't done 25 this expansion I can't say for certain.

[Deleted]

Something tells me you've never done 25m H Baleroc pre-nerf. That was actually kind of hard unlike the loot pinata that is called 6/7H Firelands in both 10 and 25m (even pre-nerf).

I think Baleroc in general is a bad example of a "hard" fight, the mechanics are extremely simple in my opinion, the issue then becomes, do you have the numbers or do you not, which isn't so much about the fight being hard in itself as much as about you having the correct people playing the correct characters in the raid. I fully know that Baleroc pre-nerf can be considered harder on 25 man than on 10 man but I still think it's a bad example of a "hard" fight due to the previous reasons.

Also, just to play devils advocate, you can juggle an enraged Baleroc for 1 min+ on 25-man if you have the correct classes in the raid, good luck doing that on 10 man.

[Eon Drache]

10 man is the same difficulty as 25m, just less loot and harder composition make-ups. 25m guilds can go in and breeze through loot. 10m guilds are still looking for the loot. So many guilds less have done 10m than 25m ragnaros heroic. And most of the 10m heroic kills were by 25m guilds that took their best geared players. Loot wasn't an issue for them like it is for real 10m guilds.

---------- Post added 2011-10-06 at 07:05 PM ----------

Plenty of 25m guilds farm 10m H Rag on their alts. Cant find a 10m guild that does the same lol. It is ironic that my alt probably has earlier 10m kill date this and last tier than 99% of the people claiming 10m is serious business. Top guilds will always be 25m unless 10m is much easier for obvious reasons.

You contradict yourself stating that 10m isn't easier, yet it isn't serious lol. Very nice.

[Deleted]

Personally, I consider anything less than 40 people a practice raid.

Enter the sound of internet women everywhere not swooning. OT: All I care about it having fun ingame with friends. Being competitive with other guilds I know can be fun, but at the end of the day I don't think anyone cares about anyone else's progression really. No one who should be wasting the energy on it anyway.

[Jinto]

I think Baleroc in general is a bad example of a "hard" fight, the mechanics are extremely simple in my opinion, the issue then becomes, do you have the numbers or do you not, which isn't so much about the fight being hard in itself as much as about you having the correct people playing the correct characters in the raid. I fully know that Baleroc pre-nerf can be considered harder on 25 man than on 10 man but I still think it's a bad example of a "hard" fight due to the previous reasons.

Also, just to play devils advocate, you can juggle an enraged Baleroc for 1 min+ on 25-man if you have the correct classes in the raid, good luck doing that on 10 man.

If you need 1min+ post enrage to kill it on 10m, or even 10s+ your raid is bad. The dps check is laughable. I did it on 10m not even on my best alt with half the gear it is wearing currently and easily beat the enrage.

10 man is the same difficulty as 25m, just less loot and harder composition make-ups. 25m guilds can go in and breeze through loot. 10m guilds are still looking for the loot. So many guilds less have done 10m than 25m ragnaros heroic. And most of the 10m heroic kills were by 25m guilds that took their best geared players. Loot wasn't an issue for them like it is for real 10m guilds.

---------- Post added 2011-10-06 at 07:05 PM ----------



You contradict yourself stating that 10m isn't easier, yet it isn't serious lol. Very nice.

Go to dictionary.com and look up the meaning of "much".

[Deleted]

No, i think 10m are for alts

[Eon Drache]

Go to dictionary.com and look up the meaning of "much".

"Durp, durp, durp"

[GrieverXIII]

Nope, when looking for guild rankings on WoW progress and stuff i directly click on the 25man tab. 10man is just a lazy inferior alternative. I could see why people do it, its always fun to chill out with your friends and just play the game, but on the competitive scene, i don't think it has its place.

[DetectiveJohnKimble]

ITT: A bunch of internet heroes.

[Jinto]

"Durp, durp, durp"

Let me link it for you if you cant find it -.-"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/much

[Eon Drache]

Let me link it for you if you cant find it -.-"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/much

You put some real effort into trolling. +1 sirs.

[Kavoo]

It's actually a pretty common joke how easy 25 mans are compared to 10s among the 10 man community. 10s have a much more narrow mistake window -absolutely everyone needs to be pulling 100% of their weight - and you get shit for loot i.e., your core raid members gear up more slowly. They are less rewarding and just as difficult. If you think they are easier you probably have not ever done them (as progression - if you did them AFTER you cleared the 25 man equivalent you are obviously going to think they are easier); Blizzard actually did a fabulous job making 10s and 25s of similar to equal difficulty. The only reason they are not viewed as equal is because of their history as being easier.

Agree 100%, and I think OP wants a flamewar.