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  1. #1
    The Lightbringer Howard Moon's Avatar
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    Question NEED_ROLE_BONUS - good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Client Strings
    It looks like people who have the proper role for an item will get a bonus when they roll on it ... or something like that.
    Originally Posted by MMO-Champion
    LOOT_ROLL_ROLLED_NEED_ROLE_BONUS = "Need Roll - %d for %s by %s + Role Bonus";
    What do you guys think of this? Will it solve the ninjaing problem?

    Copied the front page thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by florestan View Post
    The loot roll penalty feature is interesting.

    A Fine is a Price (title of an influential econ paper by Gneezy & Rustichini, 2000) and a fine for rolling on off-spec items might be seen by many people as fair compensation for "ninjaing".

    I would expect more people to roll Need on off-spec items (without consulting the group first) after introduction of the penalty than before - the Blizzard-imposed fine might lower the impact of the present social conventions (and highly uncertain social consequences) on decision-making. Accepting the penalty may justify being greedy in a way that Blizzard's "if you can roll Need you are welcome to do so" blanket statement never could.

    If this change is going to be introduced in 4.3 it could make for a nice thesis project in behavioral economics. Monitor actual behavior on loot rolls (with Need before Greed loot system in place) in "local" PuGs and cross-realm PuGs before patch, contrast to the behavior in LFR after patch and look whether the new LFR feature also impacts behavior in dungeon/old-raid PuGs (again local & cross-realm). Do a few interviews to supplement your statistical findings, explore possible explanations for your findings (incomplete information/contracts? guilt and social conventions? ...) and contribute to science by playing WoW!
    I agree, I am sure this will only cause more people to roll "need" on offset pieces because "main spec rollers have roll bonus anyway".

    IMHO this is not a very good solution, because random(100) can still be greater than random(100)+bonus. So while mainspec rollers have better probablility of getting the item, the system relies on the damned RNG instead on who actually needs the item most.

    Thoughts?

    UPDATE: For the lazy asses who don't bother reading the whole thread, this thread was started before Blizz announced that the bonus will be 100. So what I wrote about random(100) > random(100)+bonus is outdated now. No I'm not retarded.



    UPDATE 2: New info about the Need Role Bonus in the blue post below:


    Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    In response to concerns regarding how loot will be distributed in the Raid Finder system, we are making some changes to how loot rolls will work when using the Need Before Greed system in the Raid Finder. When using Raid Finder for the Dragon Soul raid instance, players whose currently assigned class role (Tank, Healer, or Damage) matches the class role that a piece of armor or a weapon is flagged for will receive +100 to their Need roll. For purposes of this check, your currently assigned role is defined as the class role you have assigned when a boss is defeated. Sound confusing? I hope not, but here's how it'll work:

    A boss dies and drops EPIC TANKING ITEM.


    • A mage in the group yawns and clicks the "Greed" button, getting a 98.

    • A Fury warrior in the group wants to take up tanking, so he rolls "Need" and gets a solid 64.

    • Both tanks want the item. Tank 1 rolls a 12, and Tank 2 rolls a 7.

    So what happens?

    Because the mage rolled greed, she's right out from the start. The Fury warrior's Need roll was higher than the tanks', but he was in the Damage Dealer role when the boss died, and the item is flagged for tanking, so his 64 is still just a 64 out of a possible 100. In contrast, Tank 1 and Tank 2 each get a 100 point bonus to their rolls because they were in the Tanking role when the boss died and they’re rolling on an item that has been flagged for the tanking role. That means that Tank 1 rolled a 112 out of 200, and tank 2 rolled a 107 out of 200. Tank 1 wins the item! If a roll got a bonus, that bonus will be clearly displayed in the chat log.

    Please keep in mind that, at least for now, this system will only look at class role, and not player spec. This bonus isn't only for tanking items either – it applies to Tanking, Damage Dealing, and Healing items, and some items are flagged for more than one class role too. Starting out, only Dragon Soul raid items will be flagged for class roles in this way (though all of the items in the raid will be flagged for one or more roles). As you might expect, all the normal Need Before Greed rules are still in place, so that means that these roll bonuses won't overrule normal class and usability restrictions. Item tooltips in the raid won't reflect which class roles will get rolling bonuses, but it should be fairly obvious based on stat allocations and item type.

    We are considering expanding this system to apply to the new 4.3 dungeons as well, though it is unlikely that we'll see the system apply to older dungeons or raids for now. Also, please keep in mind that this system is newly minted, and it may see further changes before it's released with the Raid Finder in patch 4.3.
    So it is a +100 bonus.
    Last edited by Howard Moon; 2011-11-14 at 09:42 AM. Reason: update
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  2. #2
    Fluffy Kitten Taurenburger's Avatar
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    I don´t see why it causes people to roll need more. The people who roll need for offspec gear will continue doing so, aswell as the people who nicely ask if they´re allowed to roll still won´t need on offspec gear if someone needs it for mainspec...
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  3. #3
    High Overlord Sylayia's Avatar
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    The bonus might be a +100 to the roll so the person with main-spec need roll is actually a 100-200 roll rather than a 1-100 roll for a person need rolling for off-spec
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylayia View Post
    The bonus might be a +100 to the roll so the person with main-spec need roll is actually a 100-200 roll rather than a 1-100 roll for a person need rolling for off-spec
    if its +100, wouldnt they just make it so you couldnt roll on tank gear with a need if you wernt set as tank role?

  5. #5
    Oh look! It's time for more rumors, conspiracy, false information and ignorance, based on one single client text string...

    <Infracted>
    Last edited by Aciaedius; 2011-10-07 at 01:10 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Furkel View Post
    There's always, ALWAYS a "huge uproar" about anything Blizz does, usually from people who either don't entirely understand the thing they're complaining about, or refuse to acknowledge that most players are perfectly okay with the current state of affairs. Whenever people complain that they don't listen to feedback it mostly means "they don't listen to ME ME ME".
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylayia View Post
    The bonus might be a +100 to the roll so the person with main-spec need roll is actually a 100-200 roll rather than a 1-100 roll for a person need rolling for off-spec
    I'd hope for that, honestly. I'd suspect more like +20 or +50, though - Blizzard seem to like people taking OS need gear
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  7. #7
    It's hard to say since we know so little about how it's going to work. It may be something in lines of what Sylayia proposed (I hope it is) or something entirely different. But to me it sounds a good system and I'm looking forward to hearing more about this

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnowo View Post
    Oh look! It's time for more rumors, conspiracy, false information and ignorance, based on one single client text string...
    Yeah, it's called a "discussion" on an Internet Message Board.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Mowg View Post
    Yeah, it's called a "discussion" on an Internet Message Board.
    The problem is, we don't have anywhere near enough information to actually facilitate a real discussion. We have a single client string that indicates that Blizzard is investigating the technical possibility of taking role/spec into account, and creating a system to accommodate that. That is the extent of our knowledge.

    I'm not going to start talking about what I think of a system, when we don't know even know what system will be. As said, it could be a bonus large enough to guarantee that main spec wings (which would probably be the case if they wanted a system that would seamlessly integrate with the current loot box/system). It could be a bonus that's relatively small. My opinion will differ vastly based on the size of the bonus. *shrug*

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Howard Moon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnowo View Post
    Oh look! It's time for more rumors, conspiracy, false information and ignorance, based on one single client text string...
    Nobody is forcing you to participate. Yes it is only a datamined string, but it is still interesting and a good topic for discussion. Even if we don't know anything about it yet, speculating is fun for some people and it doesn't hurt you in any way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylayia View Post
    The bonus might be a +100 to the roll so the person with main-spec need roll is actually a 100-200 roll rather than a 1-100 roll for a person need rolling for off-spec
    Like someone else said, a +100 bonus would make the system redundant. Might as well prevent off-spec rolls completely. I am vaguely guessing +20 or so.
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  11. #11
    It can't be a bonus to allow main spec to always win, that could lead to people who don't need the gear rolling need just because they know they will win it and can DE/vendor it.

    A greedy tank could roll on every tank piece and be guarenteed to win it every time in a 5-man. Completely stopping the plate DPS from gearing an offspec.
    If this goes ahead it could take one of two forms from what I an think of

    1. A static amount is added to a standard roll (e.g. I roll 1-100 and get 30, 20 bonus is then added to my roll becomes 50)

    2. The lower/upper limits to the roll are increased, (e.g. I roll 1-120 instead of 1-100. Perhaps 20-100)


    In my opinion a static increase like '1' is the hardest to balance, lets say you add a static '50'. Any natural roll 51 or over is an instant win if not capped to 100, anything below 50 is still incredibly boosted chance of winning. It's very difficult to tweak the bonus if the percentage advantage is so difficult to work out.

    I think the easiest and perhaps fairest way (IMO) would be for the bonus to apply to the lower roll limit. Maybe rolling 50-100 instead of 1-100, this is easier to work out the percentage advantage and likely the way that players will get the concept of easiest.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Affectionate View Post
    if its +100, wouldnt they just make it so you couldnt roll on tank gear with a need if you wernt set as tank role?
    No. If no mainspec needer rolls then the offspec needers will get a shot at the item if the bonus is +100. Which it should, anything else is stupid. A tank should never lose a roll against a DPS for a tanking item if they can detect roles.

  13. #13
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    I doubt there will ever be a 100% fair solution for PuGs, but Blizzard is listening and reading forums and trying to adjust things. I am sure they will be glad for input.

    And in the end, everybody still has the chance to do organized runs in 5, 10 and 25 man under their own rules and with only trusted people.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
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  14. #14
    The Patient paladinofcancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Affectionate View Post
    if its +100, wouldnt they just make it so you couldnt roll on tank gear with a need if you wernt set as tank role?
    No. Lets say youve got a DK tank, and ret pally DPS. Now lets say some plate tank gear drops. Dk rolls need with his plus 100 is guarenteed he gets it over ret pally. However, lets say Dk already has said piece of gear. He passes or rolls greed. Now, ret pally does have a prot OS, so he wants it, if he can't roll need on it, then theres a good chance its gonna go to someone elses greed roll and become vendor trash or a shard. If the roll is plus 100 if its role appropriate, it ensures tanks or healers or dps get "first dibs" on gear suited to their role, but also still allows people to roll need for OS in the event that none of the people in that role as MS need the item.

  15. #15

    I think...

    It will have advantages and drawbacks. Clearly one string of PTR text doesn't mean anything at this point. This only happens in PUGs but...

    I have issues with other tanks rolling need on things I actually "need" but they say: Oh this is for my 3rd of 4th tank set (-_-). The item in question is usually a dire upgrade from what I have.

    I don't have issues with ninjas (yet) but this will prevent that from happening when I really need an upgrade on a tank piece.

    Ultimately I only have 1 other person to roll against since most of my pieces are tank only and unlike a DK, my sword and board is also tank only. Plate wearers can roll on tanking drops, but they usually respect the tank (they know if they roll against me, and I actually needed, i'll prolly leave or they'll be kicked).

    This may help LFR finder only because of the fact that once you roll on pieces in a raid, the next time you queue, you become loot locked for that week. This will at least help the tanks/healers not have the issue of being loot locked every week because all the other casters or plate wearers are rolling for the exact piece that is better suited for a healer or tank. This is my opinion at this time. It may change pending 4.3's inevitable release!
    "Quit rolling your fat, greasy, cheetos grubbing fingers all over the keyboard!" - Random Burning Crusade Raider circa 2007
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  16. #16
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    At least they're trying to fix the issue. Right now, people often whine that other roles are rolling on their loot. Their healer rolls on a neck with hit... Their tank druid rolls on spirit leather... The mage rolls on an item with spirit on it...

    Now if you could auto-win your role-specific loot, the tank wouldn't miss out on a tanking chest that he needs because the off-warrior present in the group wants to gear up his off-spec and doesn't care that the tank needs the item to improve his mainspec. The healer doesn't have to worry about the feral druid rolling on 'their' spirit leather... the mage doesn't need to worry about the healer rolling on +hit items, etc.

    Yes, it's still open to abuse whenever someone says "Neener, I won't let you have it for your off-spec even though I'm wearing ilvl 400 average and don't need ANYTHING that you're still desperately farming for, but I'm rolling need because Blizzard lets me! Go and complain to them, you sillyhead!"

    See, you will NEVER be able to put an end to whining about loot for as long as people enjoy f...ing other people over.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    I doubt there will ever be a 100% fair solution for PuGs, but Blizzard is listening and reading forums and trying to adjust things. I am sure they will be glad for input.

    And in the end, everybody still has the chance to do organized runs in 5, 10 and 25 man under their own rules and with only trusted people.
    I would like to see a solution with a loot bag for each player in LFR, obviously tuned to give you the same chance at getting an item like the current loot system.

    Maybe the bosses could still drop tokens.

    If done right I think it could be acceptable.
    It's almost always the wrong argument to compare yourself to the highest DPS specs out there. "Middle of the pack" is actually where everyone is supposed to be. -Ghostcrawler
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  18. #18
    The Lightbringer Howard Moon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paladinofcancer View Post
    No. Lets say youve got a DK tank, and ret pally DPS. Now lets say some plate tank gear drops. Dk rolls need with his plus 100 is guarenteed he gets it over ret pally. However, lets say Dk already has said piece of gear. He passes or rolls greed. Now, ret pally does have a prot OS, so he wants it, if he can't roll need on it, then theres a good chance its gonna go to someone elses greed roll and become vendor trash or a shard. If the roll is plus 100 if its role appropriate, it ensures tanks or healers or dps get "first dibs" on gear suited to their role, but also still allows people to roll need for OS in the event that none of the people in that role as MS need the item.
    Yeah that's a good point. I guess a +100 role bonus does make some sense after all. It could get abused by tanks, like Judge40 mentioned, but I doubt it would be as bad as ninjaing is now.
    Last edited by Howard Moon; 2011-10-07 at 09:30 AM.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Mowg View Post
    Yeah, it's called a "discussion" on an Internet Message Board.
    Discussions are based on facts, not rumors and personal interpretation. There is nothing to "discuss" here...

    I have yet to see any good come from these so called "discussions" when they are started because someone read a text-string or "heard something from a friend". At this moment, we have about thousands of players who are extremely certain that the next expansion will be about Panda's, all based on speculation about one claimed trademark. Those people will be angry and dissapointed when this turns to be wrong. And they will complain about "how Blizzard promised them Panda's". The current WoW playerbase has proven numerous times that it is not capable of separating facts from speculation.

    This whole thread will only feed those who take everything for granted. You think only a handful of people really is really that naive? The fact that "hackers" still send out phishing mails -because they find enough gullible people to bite- proofs different.

    For anything else regarding this subject, I am going to go with Darkwarrior42 on this one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Furkel View Post
    There's always, ALWAYS a "huge uproar" about anything Blizz does, usually from people who either don't entirely understand the thing they're complaining about, or refuse to acknowledge that most players are perfectly okay with the current state of affairs. Whenever people complain that they don't listen to feedback it mostly means "they don't listen to ME ME ME".
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by paladinofcancer View Post
    No. Lets say youve got a DK tank, and ret pally DPS. Now lets say some plate tank gear drops. Dk rolls need with his plus 100 is guarenteed he gets it over ret pally. However, lets say Dk already has said piece of gear. He passes or rolls greed. Now, ret pally does have a prot OS, so he wants it, if he can't roll need on it, then theres a good chance its gonna go to someone elses greed roll and become vendor trash or a shard. If the roll is plus 100 if its role appropriate, it ensures tanks or healers or dps get "first dibs" on gear suited to their role, but also still allows people to roll need for OS in the event that none of the people in that role as MS need the item.
    Not to mention that it doesn't have to be publically visible. They could just put a mention that MS roles get it first.


    However, I am still concerned that they haven't addressed the fact the system lets you tick multiple roles. It implies they want you to help out the queuing system in anyway possible, but then punish you for being helpful by barring you from the loot you actually came for.

    I can see queue times becoming worse because players with fully viable tanking/healing specs are forced to queue as dps instead. When the group loses someone in this role that person will have to sit there and refuse to change spec to finish the run, because they would get barred from loot.

    My preferred solution would be allowing players to tick all the roles they can fill, because it makes the queue system more efficient. But also ask the player to pick 1 main spec which they must stick to for loot priorities. This loot choice should be done at the start before they can see who is in the group. The server should prefer to put them in the same role as their loot choice and you cannot chose a role you cannot fill.
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