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  1. #21
    my only damn problem with this so far is what about twohanders? will it be Mainspec for DK tanks or for Lolrets/warriors?... /waitspatiently before the storm.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnowo View Post
    Discussions are based on facts, not rumors and personal interpretation. There is nothing to "discuss" here...
    We can still discuss whether a system that gives you a bonus to your roll depending on your role would be a good system, whether or not it is the actual plan.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    you're likely wrong, and we don't care anyway.
    Source

  3. #23
    The Patient paladinofcancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnowo View Post
    Discussions are based on facts, not rumors and personal interpretation. There is nothing to "discuss" here...

    I have yet to see any good come from these so called "discussions" when they are started because someone read a text-string or "heard something from a friend". At this moment, we have about thousands of players who are extremely certain that the next expansion will be about Panda's, all based on speculation about one claimed trademark. Those people will be angry and dissapointed when this turns to be wrong. And they will complain about "how Blizzard promised them Panda's". The current WoW playerbase has proven numerous times that it is not capable of separating facts from speculation.

    This whole thread will only feed those who take everything for granted. You think only a handful of people really is really that naive? The fact that "hackers" still send out phishing mails -because they find enough gullible people to bite- proofs different.

    For anything else regarding this subject, I am going to go with Darkwarrior42 on this one.
    Theres nothing "claimed" about the trademark, its legit, its the same kind of trade mark BC, WotLK, and Cata were, and we're less than a month away from Blizzcon with no other trademarks out there. The only people that don't accept that MoP is the next xpac are the people desperately wishing it isn't. Sorry if you don't like pandas.

  4. #24
    Seems a little counter-productive,

    Blizzard wants more people to tank. So say I'm a well geared tank and the only reason I still run Zandalari is for my OS. Now, I'll need to queue as a DPS to have a good chance of actually getting that loot.

    So what would you rather have as a DPS in a 20 minute queue, less tanks or more loot?

  5. #25
    The Patient paladinofcancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krogh View Post
    my only damn problem with this so far is what about twohanders? will it be Mainspec for DK tanks or for Lolrets/warriors?... /waitspatiently before the storm.
    All of the above. They would all have equal right to roll need on it with a bonus.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Krogh View Post
    my only damn problem with this so far is what about twohanders? will it be Mainspec for DK tanks or for Lolrets/warriors?... /waitspatiently before the storm.
    I predict that Blizz will refrain from delcaring which secondary stats are good for which classes/roles (apart from spirit). Therefore all 2h weapons are also available to DK tanks.

    ----

    You could however bring up the point that when you want some gear for your OS, say as a priest, the stat allocation might look the same as your MS, so the system acciedentally lets you roll MS rather than OS. Despite being equal/worse than your current gear.

    It will be interesting to see how they solve that problem without bringing back Damage Spell Power and Healing Spell Power again.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    you're likely wrong, and we don't care anyway.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Spoinky View Post
    Seems a little counter-productive,

    Blizzard wants more people to tank. So say I'm a well geared tank and the only reason I still run Zandalari is for my OS. Now, I'll need to queue as a DPS to have a good chance of actually getting that loot.

    So what would you rather have as a DPS in a 20 minute queue, less tanks or more loot?
    Personally I don't mind waiting a few more minutes in a case like that.
    It's almost always the wrong argument to compare yourself to the highest DPS specs out there. "Middle of the pack" is actually where everyone is supposed to be. -Ghostcrawler
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  8. #28
    regardless of whether the bonus is 20 or 50 or whatever

    if its less than 100, there is gonna be a shitstorm of T.T wen an OS outrolls an MS.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Spoinky View Post
    Seems a little counter-productive,

    Blizzard wants more people to tank. So say I'm a well geared tank and the only reason I still run Zandalari is for my OS. Now, I'll need to queue as a DPS to have a good chance of actually getting that loot.

    So what would you rather have as a DPS in a 20 minute queue, less tanks or more loot?
    Please by all means, let your fellow tank know that you want to gear your warrior's tanking OS. I'm sure we can work something out. Don't just sit there with your mouth agape when we all roll greed and you don't win because of lack of communication. I've way outgeared ZA content and don't mind giving up my right to roll need to any future tank looking to gear up! Just ask!
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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Xebu View Post
    I agree, I am sure this will only cause more people to roll "need" on offset pieces because "main spec rollers have roll bonus anyway".

    IMHO this is not a very good solution, because random(100) can still be greater than random(100)+bonus. So while mainspec rollers have better probablility of getting the item, the system relies on the damned RNG instead on who actually needs the item most.

    Thoughts?
    I agree that more people will just be rolling now because of a bonus to others. Since we don't know what that bonus is yet, we can't really form opinions on it. For all we know, the Main spec bonus could be 100 points, thereby eliminating off spec's possibility to win no matter what.

    In addition to that who "Needs" the item really is subjective, especially when you add the "who needs the item most" to it. To me, it sounds like a fair system. It won't force undergeared players to go for roles they aren't comfortable in with their current gear level because it's the only way they'll gear up a spec they may wish to play. I personally would love to try my hand at tanking on my Paladin, but not having the gear, I'm not going to just throw myself at the mercy of the fights and hope I come out okay. Instead, I queue up as a healer and roll on the gear I need, that being tanking gear, when I get the chance to do dungeons.

    Likewise, with the "Who needs it the most" argument, does it then come down to who performed better should have priority? Should it be who is going to get the biggest upgrade? At what point do you decide that someone doesn't need it, but someone else does? What if someone wants to tank, but is told, "Sorry we have enough tanks already"? Should they not be allowed to roll on that item because they were forced to switch to DPS?

  11. #31
    The Lightbringer Howard Moon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnowo View Post
    Discussions are based on facts, not rumors and personal interpretation. There is nothing to "discuss" here...
    Ok. Bye bye then. Oh and this is a panda-free thread, thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spoinky View Post
    Seems a little counter-productive,

    Blizzard wants more people to tank. So say I'm a well geared tank and the only reason I still run Zandalari is for my OS. Now, I'll need to queue as a DPS to have a good chance of actually getting that loot.

    So what would you rather have as a DPS in a 20 minute queue, less tanks or more loot?
    Well in your scenario, you are a tank rolling "need" for dps gear. If a dps player rolls "need" and wins thanks to the role bonus, then the system is working, isn't it? You can still win the item for your offspec if none of the dpsers need it. If you want to gear up your dps offspec by ninjaing gear as a tank, then... too bad.
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  12. #32
    Scarab Lord Descense's Avatar
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    Its posible that it will work like this:
    Tank item drops---
    Dps can roll only once--he rolls 55
    Tank gets 2 dices--1st is 30 and second is 60
    Tank wins the item by 60

    Dps item drops:
    Tank rolls on a item--he rolls 80
    Dps rolls on a item--rolls 1 and 15
    tank wins the item

  13. #33
    Sounds good, looks like at least something's being done to prevent OS rolls.
    However, it doesn't look like something that would affect tokens. It shouldn't matter for the first week or so, when everyone needs them for MS, but a few weeks down the line, there'll probably be people rolling on tokens for OS. I don't see how these could detect specs unless, god forbid, they pull a BH and make bosses drop tier instead.
    I really hope that doesn't happen .

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Xebu View Post
    Well in your scenario, you are a tank rolling "need" for dps gear. If a dps player rolls "need" and wins thanks to the role bonus, then the system is working, isn't it? You can still win the item for your offspec if none of the dpsers need it. If you want to gear up your dps offspec by ninjaing gear as a tank, then... too bad.
    It always comes down to this argument. You shall now tell me that to get DPS gear one must go through the punishment of a longer queue time. It is going through this queue that gives you the right to obtain DPS kit.

    However, that is not why there is a queue time. The queue time is there because there are lack of players able to fill the other roles. You're not being punished for wanting DPS gear, you're being punished for being unable to fill the roles that are most needed. Going through the wait time gives you the right to play as the dps role, it does not necessarily give you dominance over dps loot.

    A DPS player who happens to be able to fill the tank role too, is not queue jumping. He is merely helping out the system as required. This is why his queue time was shorter. It doesn't mean that he should be banned from rolling on the DPS loot.


    Once again I call for the implementation of a system that lets you select multiple roles that you can fill, but also gives the ability to select a single one as a MS. Such that you can be useful without being punished.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    you're likely wrong, and we don't care anyway.
    Source

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Xebu View Post
    Yeah that's a good point. I guess a +100 role bonus does make some sense after all. It could get abused by tanks, like Judge40 mentioned, but I doubt it would be as bad as ninjaing is now.
    If a tank ninja's a tanking chest when he's already wearing something better, he can just get kicked from the group by the other players. While the tank himself won't suffer too much from re-queuing, it's still time lost compared to simply passing/greeding on loot he does not need. Same goes for healers and DPSers needing on stuff when they're already wearing better stuff.

    There's only 1 thing this system might change if it goes live, and that's allowing players to roll need for off-spec items without having to wait on the MS players to pass/greed the items and politely asking first. Though that means we'll get even less pug interaction during LFD runs.

    Of course, that means +100 role bonus would be necessary.

  16. #36
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    TBH I think the idea behind a bonus is a flawed fix to a problem with a tangible solution: Just add MS/OS Need rolls. If they can see what role you are, and then internally know what piece of gear goes for what roll, just enable the rolls to simulate the traditional Pug MS > OS rule. MS > OS > Greed = Disenchant and half the problems go away; you CAN'T "ninja" tank gear as DPS if the person flagged as tank also rolls Need - the system won't allow it. However if they pass or greed/DE or whatever, then the rolls go to anyone who rolls for OS.

    I suppose the concept behind that could be put into this bonus thing by having a bonus for main spec and penalty for OS, but that's not getting away from the problem an there's still a chance an OS roll w/penalty would beat a MS roll w/bonus.

    And, of course, there's a much easier solution that nobody uses: Just ask first. If a piece of gear drops that's an upgrade for your OS, just ask if you can roll for OS. Of course given how people are in this game, that involves talking to others and being polite, so it will never happen...
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2011-10-07 at 11:25 AM.

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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    And, of course, there's a much easier solution that nobody uses: Just ask first. If a piece of gear drops that's an upgrade for your OS, just ask if you can roll for OS. Of course given how people are in this game, that involves talking to others and being polite, so it will never happen...
    5 drops, 25 raiders. Asking people what they need is going to get drowned out in a spam of roll selections. I will be the first to ask about OS kit in a 5 man team, but in a 25 man team it will be chaos.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    you're likely wrong, and we don't care anyway.
    Source

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnowo View Post
    Discussions are based on facts, not rumors and personal interpretation. There is nothing to "discuss" here...

    I have yet to see any good come from these so called "discussions" when they are started because someone read a text-string or "heard something from a friend". At this moment, we have about thousands of players who are extremely certain that the next expansion will be about Panda's, all based on speculation about one claimed trademark. Those people will be angry and dissapointed when this turns to be wrong. And they will complain about "how Blizzard promised them Panda's". The current WoW playerbase has proven numerous times that it is not capable of separating facts from speculation.

    This whole thread will only feed those who take everything for granted. You think only a handful of people really is really that naive? The fact that "hackers" still send out phishing mails -because they find enough gullible people to bite- proofs different.

    For anything else regarding this subject, I am going to go with Darkwarrior42 on this one.
    It is going to be a hilarious joke on you in a couple weeks
    Same with the need bonus They are doing something. That's enough basis.

    ---------- Post added 2011-10-07 at 02:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mammoth View Post
    5 drops, 25 raiders. Asking people what they need is going to get drowned out in a spam of roll selections. I will be the first to ask about OS kit in a 5 man team, but in a 25 man team it will be chaos.
    The cool system would be do a raid vote on whether or not allow offspecs.
    If the vote passes: everybody can roll for offspecs (whether or not there will be mainspec bonus)
    If doesn't: only for the spec you are in now.
    And it will also allow to see what you are getting into in relation to rolls.

  19. #39
    The Lightbringer Howard Moon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mammoth View Post
    A DPS player who happens to be able to fill the tank role too, is not queue jumping. He is merely helping out the system as required. This is why his queue time was shorter. It doesn't mean that he should be banned from rolling on the DPS loot.

    Once again I call for the implementation of a system that lets you select multiple roles that you can fill, but also gives the ability to select a single one as a MS. Such that you can be useful without being punished.
    That suggestion could work. It is similar to the idea of splitting the "need" roll into "ms" and "os" rolls, which has been around for a while. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any problems this could cause, but Blizz might not want to add complexity to the user interface (though I personally wouldn't mind).
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Krogh View Post
    my only damn problem with this so far is what about twohanders? will it be Mainspec for DK tanks or for Lolrets/warriors?... /waitspatiently before the storm.
    For all three, probably. Same goes with onehanders, though there may be some more in-depth itemisation analysis.

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