NEED_ROLE_BONUS - good?

[seijo]

I saw that string and first thing that came to mind was they are giving a bonus for people depending on what role they picked when they queued. Probably the most simple solution... most gear with some exceptions such as caster gear is pretty obvious who it's meant for. Not the most comprehensive solution... but can't win them all.

[MrHappy]

yea its good because lets say that a tank rolls on dps gear the dps will have say 5% or w/e added to his roll to make it more fair (at a cap @ 100 ofc). it makes people that don't roll on their spec gear less likely to win it. good for u blizz

ps this is a simple and effective solution w/out having to recode the roll system to recognize specs/class/etc

[Howard Moon]

if the main spec doesn't need the item, the bonus is irrelevant. If you queue as a tank, and your DPS don't need the gear, you still have the opportunity to roll. The same goes for the reverse.

Exactly! Thank you, you explained it much better than I did :P

---------- Post added 2011-10-07 at 07:19 PM ----------

In case you somehow missed the front page news

In response to concerns regarding how loot will be distributed in the Raid Finder system, we are making some changes to how loot rolls will work when using the Need Before Greed system in the Raid Finder. When using Raid Finder for the Dragon Soul raid instance, players whose currently assigned class role (Tank, Healer, or Damage) matches the class role that a piece of armor or a weapon is flagged for will receive +100 to their Need roll. For purposes of this check, your currently assigned role is defined as the class role you have assigned when a boss is defeated. Sound confusing? I hope not, but here's how it'll work:

A boss dies and drops EPIC TANKING ITEM.

• A mage in the group yawns and clicks the "Greed" button, getting a 98.
  
  
• A Fury warrior in the group wants to take up tanking, so he rolls "Need" and gets a solid 64.
  
  
• Both tanks want the item. Tank 1 rolls a 12, and Tank 2 rolls a 7.

So what happens?

Because the mage rolled greed, she's right out from the start. The Fury warrior's Need roll was higher than the tanks', but he was in the Damage Dealer role when the boss died, and the item is flagged for tanking, so his 64 is still just a 64 out of a possible 100. In contrast, Tank 1 and Tank 2 each get a 100 point bonus to their rolls because they were in the Tanking role when the boss died and they’re rolling on an item that has been flagged for the tanking role. That means that Tank 1 rolled a 112 out of 200, and tank 2 rolled a 107 out of 200. Tank 1 wins the item! If a roll got a bonus, that bonus will be clearly displayed in the chat log.

Please keep in mind that, at least for now, this system will only look at class role, and not player spec. This bonus isn't only for tanking items either – it applies to Tanking, Damage Dealing, and Healing items, and some items are flagged for more than one class role too. Starting out, only Dragon Soul raid items will be flagged for class roles in this way (though all of the items in the raid will be flagged for one or more roles). As you might expect, all the normal Need Before Greed rules are still in place, so that means that these roll bonuses won't overrule normal class and usability restrictions. Item tooltips in the raid won't reflect which class roles will get rolling bonuses, but it should be fairly obvious based on stat allocations and item type.

We are considering expanding this system to apply to the new 4.3 dungeons as well, though it is unlikely that we'll see the system apply to older dungeons or raids for now. Also, please keep in mind that this system is newly minted, and it may see further changes before it's released with the Raid Finder in patch 4.3.

So it is a +100 bonus.

[JohnDecker1]

I am sure this will only cause more people to roll "need" on offset pieces because "main spec rollers have roll bonus anyway". IMHO this is not a very good solution

[Porcell]

I am sure this will only cause more people to roll "need" on offset pieces because "main spec rollers have roll bonus anyway". IMHO this is not a very good solution

I don't follow the logic in your post. Of course it will cause more people to roll need on offset pieces. The +100 basically puts an additional "step" in between Need and Greed. It's "Need, Need Offspec, Everyone Else" roll system now, without having to add an extra button.

[Howard Moon]

I am sure this will only cause more people to roll "need" on offset pieces because "main spec rollers have roll bonus anyway". IMHO this is not a very good solution

Yeah, that would be an issue if the bonus was < 100. But since it is +100 then it doesn't matter, at all.

[Mammoth]

I fail to see how this is an issue. DPS have to queue as tanks/healers in order to build up their offspec, the same should be reversed.

Many of you are completely overlooking the fact that if the main spec doesn't need the item, the bonus is irrelevant. If you queue as a tank, and your DPS don't need the gear, you still have the opportunity to roll. The same goes for the reverse.

The DPS that want to build up their tanking OS gear should tick Tank and DPS, it is telling the server which roles they can fill. They can decide that their main spec is tank, but the server may pick you to fill the DPS role. In the same way a tank wishing to collect DPS gear should pick Tank and DPS. Ticking both roles is just informing the server which roles they are able to fulfil, so we don't have to wait all day for a particular role to be filled.

As a tank I don't mind a fellow tank rolling on tanking gear even if the server made him DPS. It is the roles you picked when you started that matter. Personally I would like a system where you pick all the roles you fit and then select a single MS for rolls. If the server can't fit you as your MS, you still get loot priority on your MS only, not the server chosen role.

I have selected tank before and been given the DPS role. I've even had my role changed from Tank to DPS in the middle of a dungeon after a player left.

[Huntaer]

I think it will prevent a lot of ninja-ing, not all of it ofcourse. But at least it'll prevent dps plate to roll on tank items. And changing role when its already looted is not going to help. So yea, i think it's quite a positive thing.

[Stingray]

Queue times for DPS are going to be ridiculous with this change I suspect. Tanks shouldn't be a big issue, but LFR already requires more healers (24%) than LFD (20%) does, and already most of the healers in LFD are really DPS who are queueing as healers for faster queue times. Now, no one who considers DPS their main spec would ever queue as a healer since they can't even get the loot they want. One hour queue times maybe?

It should count all the roles you queued for as your main spec, not which role you got selected for.

[Porcell]

I understand the frustration of people rolling need on offspec gear. However, I'm an awesome tank. I would much rather (and I think my groups would much rather) have me running as a tank than having me queue as a DPS and doing horribly at my job. And yet me being a horrible DPS makes it more acceptable for me to roll need on DPS gear?

That's why I never really cared if people need for offspec. I'm fine with it, maybe I'll win the roll next time. I'd much rather have that awesome fury warrior in there DPSing than having him queue as a tank in a mishmash of shitty gear just so we can roll on tank gear.

But, whatever. I don't get too bent over gear.

[Mammoth]

Queue times for DPS are going to be ridiculous with this change I suspect. Tanks shouldn't be a big issue, but LFR already requires more healers (24%) than LFD (20%) does, and already most of the healers in LFD are really DPS who are queueing as healers for faster queue times. Now, no one who considers DPS their main spec would ever queue as a healer since they can't even get the loot they want. One hour queue times maybe?

It should count all the roles you queued for as your main spec, not which role you got selected for.

Take the conclusion one step further:

If you are a tank, you have to hope that 5+ dps do not want loot in order for you to have a chance at getting it for OS.

If you are a dps, you only have to hope that 2 tanks do not want loot in order for you to have a chance at getting it for OS.

Hence, if you're interested in loot, don't be a tank in LFR.

[Weerra]

Well that announcement nicely shuts the hell up "you're discussing NOTHING!" naysayers.

And the system is acceptable, even though some classes and specs will be able to roll on everything in their armour type still.

[Dakara]

IMHO this is not a very good solution, because random(100) can still be greater than random(100)+bonus. So while mainspec rollers have better probablility of getting the item, the system relies on the damned RNG instead on who actually needs the item most.

Thoughts?

Firstly, having 100 added to your roll means you will always beat people needing on OS gear even you roll 1 and they roll 100.

This kills 2 birds with one stone:

Firstly, you wont lose gear to people rolling for offspec gear.
Second, you wont lose offspec gear to DE/Greed rolls.

This should encourage more people to roll Need if they plan to use it, and that's a good thing.

[Weerra]

Firstly, having 100 added to your roll means you will always beat people needing on OS gear even you roll 1 and they roll 100.

This kills 2 birds with one stone:

Firstly, you wont lose gear to people rolling for offspec gear.
Second, you wont lose offspec gear to DE/Greed rolls.

This should encourage more people to roll Need if they plan to use it, and that's a good thing.

Quit threadhopping. This thread begun before they announced that it will be +100

[Mammoth]

Firstly, you wont lose gear to people rolling for offspec gear.

.... unless their OS gear has the same stats as their MS gear.

I am yet to see enough evidence that this change does anything apart from block tank gear and trinkets. Moonkin gear still looks like Resto gear, and a Bear will always lose when trying to get his OS moon gear compared to a Resto.

[link064]

Take the conclusion one step further:

If you are a tank, you have to hope that 5+ dps do not want loot in order for you to have a chance at getting it for OS.

If you are a dps, you only have to hope that 2 tanks do not want loot in order for you to have a chance at getting it for OS.

Hence, if you're interested in loot, don't be a tank in LFR.

Unfortunately, your model is flawed. You're assuming that every DPS in the run is a class and spec that would want the gear.

Of the 4 tanks, all 4 have melee dps offspecs, 1 has a ranged dps offspec, and 2 have healer offspecs. More than likely, if you're rolling for offspec gear, it will be for melee dps (though which you're rolling on doesn't really matter in the end). Raids tend to have 2 tanks, 3 healers (sometimes 2), and 5 dps (sometimes exchanging a healer for a 6th dps). Of those 5 dps, very likely 2-3 of them will be RDPS and the other 2-3 being MDPS. So, at the VERY MOST you'd be rolling against 2 or 3 DPS for the gear, with the likely chance of it being 1-2, and the off chance of 0-1. On the flip side, 3 of the 4 tanks are plate wearers which means if a plate piece drops you'll have a higher chance of having both tanks needing the piece than you would for either of the MDPS to be able to need the offspec dps piece. Tanks clearly have the advantage when it comes to rolling on offspec gear (as they do with every other activity in the game).

[Stingray]

.... unless their OS gear has the same stats as their MS gear.

Yep, not an issue for a class like, say, priests, where every single thing that would drop is equally suited for healing or DPS, with the exception of some trinkets. They will roll Need for offspec or main spec, and nobody will ever even know which they plan on using it for. Meanwhile, a holy paladin will have a hell of a time getting any gear for his DPS offspec. This system unfairly targets certain classes, really.

[Bashkar]

Take the conclusion one step further:

If you are a tank, you have to hope that 5+ dps do not want loot in order for you to have a chance at getting it for OS.

Or you just queue as a DPS... why is this so hard?

How do you think it would feel spending 30+ minutes in a queue looking for a particular item, only to have a Tank take it from you for his offspec? Additionally, how would you feel as a tank if, say, a fury warrior took the tanking chestpiece you were going for? It works both ways here.

You can't victimize Tanks and Healers, and tell the DPS to go screw themselves. This is a perfectly rounded model. If you're looking to gear a specific spec, play that role. It really is just that simple. Asking for anything else is just an inflated sense of entitlement.

I can understand the concerns with spirit gear, though. Cloth really isn't a concern; if you're not a priest, it's not for you.

In regards to Leather and Mail, spirit is equally important to both builds as regeneration versus hit, so I'd imagine there will be a crossover. Players will gear themselves depending on their regeneration or hit rating needs, as they always have.

[Jagstang]

Or you just queue as a DPS... why is this so hard?

How do you think it would feel spending 30+ minutes in a queue looking for a particular item, only to have a Tank take it from you for his offspec? Additionally, how would you feel as a tank if, say, a fury warrior took the tanking chestpiece you were going for? It works both ways here.

The problem with the player base is they work themselves up into balls of emotional turmoil over make believe gear. Most players like yourself, when they queue up start to size up the group and determine based on who is in the group what gear they feel they are entitled to. Gear that their brain recognizes as a reward. When that gear or "reward" drops and someone they feel doesn't have the right to that piece of gear wins it, players spaz out, and rage.

Instead of playing the game in a mature and healthy way, and recognize that players are working together as a team to down bosses and share the rewards among the players, they rage on forums to their mommy proxy (Blizzard) that Johnny on the playground took the toy he wanted out of the toybox.

Now the mommy proxy has to step in and make changes due to the immaturity and spaziness players have over make believe gear.

[Kapper117]

Or you just queue as a DPS... why is this so hard?

How do you think it would feel spending 30+ minutes in a queue looking for a particular item, only to have a Tank take it from you for his offspec? Additionally, how would you feel as a tank if, say, a fury warrior took the tanking chestpiece you were going for? It works both ways here.

You can't victimize Tanks and Healers, and tell the DPS to go screw themselves. This is a perfectly rounded model. If you're looking to gear a specific spec, play that role. It really is just that simple. Asking for anything else is just an inflated sense of entitlement.

I can understand the concerns with spirit gear, though. Cloth really isn't a concern, if you're not a priest, it's not for you. In regards to Leather and Mail, spirit is equally important to both builds as regeneration versus hit, so I'd imagine there will be a crossover. Players will gear themselves depending on their regeneration or hit rating needs, as they always have.

100% agree, if you want the gear for that spec then play it and deal with it. Blizzard seems to think like that and that's the definition they're going for with the +100 bonus. You have to be in that spec for the specific piece to get the bonus when you kill the boss.