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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Xebu View Post
    Hi there. I wrote that before the announced that the bonus was 100. Next time read the whole thread?
    So he wrote something you did? get over it? no need to nerd rage over silly stuff... and about time for this change!

  2. #142
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by paladinofcancer View Post
    Problem is, in that scenario, he didn't. If he's last in dps then he didn't put in the work
    DPS is NOT a measure of work put into the scenario. A raider equipped in L372 gear is putting in less work to get 10k DPS than a raider with Level 359 gear.

    And again, as I said previously, even if he did put in the work and effort, hes still doing it in a less stressful job.
    Fine. Let the tank do it on his own.

    Thing is......its a group effort. None can do it by themselves.

    And you are right, MS > OS is a gaming convention.... for now. Hopefully come 4.3 it will be a system convention. Otherwise, LFR isn't going to work, cause tanks and healers straight up won't queue, except for the scrubbiest of scrubs who have no other alternatives to gear up.
    LFR is likely to fail anyway because its not going to attract raiders. Its meant for people who can't raid or won't raid. A small subset of those will graduate to full raids but the truth is, the LFR won't make people have more time to play or give them a more regular schedule. And with no system in place by which they can gear up - no guild rules or anything else to enforce a FAIR distribution of loot - its going to lose a lot of the incentive for even those players to run it.

    And no, this system isn't fair. There is too much crossover in stats, too much desire to gear up, too little opportunity to change accoridignt ot he needs of the raid. This issue is trying to solve a problem that shouldn't be a problem.

    There does need to be a methodology for fiar distribution of loot.

    But this idea of a role bonus is inherently unfair and open to abuse and problems. If Blizzard truly bvelieves this is an issue that really needs to be addressed, then it should instead look at the existing systems in use today and try to implement them in game instead of replacing one system seen as unfair with another system seen as unfair.

    Take DKP for example - guilds use that to have players buy gear in raids...so what if that role bonus was replaced by a VP bonus - you could buy a bonus to your Need roll by spending VP on it.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2011-10-11 at 02:51 AM.

  3. #143
    Legendary! Airwaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patcherke View Post
    I wish for people to stop this whole 'tanks and healers> DPS' nonsense.
    I have done all rolls in 6+ years of player wow and it goes Healer > Tank > DPS

    And that is just a fact u have to hack when ur dps. I was dps for 1 year and tank for most the other as well as heals for one patch and as dps i knew this was the fact and i had to deal with it.

    2 tank 5 heals and a trillion dps, if they kept the same system tanks would NEVER get gear because of dps ninja's. It is not ur right as dps to get tank or heals gear over them. It is not even ur right as dps to say which bosses u will kill first because you do not lead the group and can be replaced easy.

    DPS have to deal with the fact that they are the least important and easiest to replace. If your not used to it after this long playing best u go find urself a single player game and feel important there.
    Aye mate

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    It is not ur right as dps to get tank or heals gear over them.
    Thats fair in some ways and unfair in others.

    It is not even ur right as dps to say which bosses u will kill first because you do not lead the group and can be replaced easy.
    And this is just a great example of why some people like to keep tanks down. Too many tanks start acting like little dictators the moment they think they are irreplaceable.

    DPS have to deal with the fact that they are the least important and easiest to replace. If your not used to it after this long playing best u go find urself a single player game and feel important there.
    DPS may be the easiest to replace, but thats not the same as unimportant.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2011-10-11 at 02:51 AM.

  5. #145
    Legendary! Airwaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    And this is just a great example of why some people like to keep tanks down. Too many tank start acting like little dictators the momnet they think they are irreplaceable.
    The healer is more important then me and know this, if the healer wanta to do something i will go along with what they say.

    With the "dictator" bs, the amount of bad players (This is because one hitting mobs and steam rolling 5mans lving don't teach u anything) in wow now is a joke so i tell them what the fuck to do because they are to brain dead to read up on there class for FIVE mins and learn how the hell to play it. I have 6 lv 85 dpsers and have only ever lost dps to raid geared guidies in my shitty blue sets. I would be happy if i came last in dps because then i know the other people know what they are doing.
    Aye mate

  6. #146
    I think all in all it is a rather positive change. Ninjaing will be harder to do. If someone needs an item and gains the bonus because it is for his/her class/spec then there is no more room for debate on who gets loot.

    I hope they also add, if you already have the item, or a better ilvl item, you cannot gain the need bonus. Just a thought, but all in all a positive thing this is.

  7. #147
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    With the "dictator" bs, the amount of bad players (This is because one hitting mobs and steam rolling 5mans lving don't teach u anything) in wow now is a joke so i tell them what the fuck to do because they are to brain dead to read up on there class for FIVE mins and learn how the hell to play it.
    Would this translate into: "Do it the way **I** do it or you aren't doing it right"?

    I have 6 lv 85 dpsers and have only ever lost dps to raid geared guidies in my shitty blue sets. I would be happy if i came last in dps because then i know the other people know what they are doing.
    The implication being that YOU know what you are doing. Which may or may not be true. There are bad DPS out there, thats true. But attitudes like yours aren't really desireable either.

    Quote Originally Posted by FearGX View Post
    I think all in all it is a rather positive change. Ninjaing will be harder to do. If someone needs an item and gains the bonus because it is for his/her class/spec then there is no more room for debate on who gets loot.

    I hope they also add, if you already have the item, or a better ilvl item, you cannot gain the need bonus. Just a thought, but all in all a positive thing this is.
    The system won't work well unless it accounts for a LOT of posisbilities.
    IF it does account for those possibilities, it takes gearing decisions away from the player.

    All this to avoid the situation "I lost a roll and want that item".

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2011-10-11 at 02:52 AM.

  8. #148
    The Patient paladinofcancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    DPS is NOT a measure of work put into the scenario. A raider equipped in L372 gear is putting in less work to get 10k DPS than a raider with Level 359 gear.



    Fine. Let the tank do it on his own.

    Thing is......its a group effort. None can do it by themselves.



    LFR is likely to fail anyway because its not going to attract raiders. Its meant for people who can't raid or won't raid. A small subeset of those will graduate tpo full raids but the truth is, the LFR won't make people have more time to play or give them a more regular schedule. And with no system in place by which they can gear up - no guild rules or anything else ton enforec a FAIR distribution of loot - it going to lose a lot of the incentive for even those players to run it.

    And no, this system isn't fair. There is too much crossover in stats, too much desire to gear up, too little opportunity to change accoridignt ot he needs of the raid. This issue is trying to solve a problem that shouldn't be a problem.

    There does need to be a methodology for fiar distribution of loot.

    But this idea of a role bonus is inherently unfair and open to abuse and problems. If Blizzard truly bvelieves this is an issue that really needs to be addressed, then it should instead look at the existing systems in use today and try to implement them in game instead of replacing one system seen as unfair with another system seen as unfair.

    Take DKP for example - guilds use that to have players buy gear in raids...so what if that role bonus was replaced by a VP bonus - you could buy a bonus to your Need roll by spending VP on it.

    EJL
    a "VPDKP" system would be more akin to a GDKP system than a real DKP system, as the whole idea behind a DKP system is to have an unbiased system of loot distribution based upon raid attendance and recent previously won items in a guild raid setting, where as GDKP is way for good raiders to make gold by carrying baddies who bought gold off ebay or who do nothing but farm or play the AH. VPDKP would result in whoever grinded to the valor cap every week would get an advantage in loot rolls, which is WAY less fair than giving people who are performing a role for you in a raid get a priority on gear that will help them perform their role better. And if you're gonna quote me, quote the whole thing, since I cleary stated that not being geared is lack of work, and not performing in the raid (whether its because you don't know how to play your class, or youre watching a movie and just spamming arcane blast or sinister strike) is a lack of effort, either one is bad. Honestly, all you sound like is someone who plays mainly DPS and has an axe to grind with tanks and healers. Why you want healers and tanks to be able to roll on your gear, I dunno.... maybe you play hunter and resto shammies are really your only concern to contend with.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Twoflower View Post
    I have mixed feelings about this.

    But at least it is a clear statement. It's the first time that blizzard officialy says "main before offspec".

    Just now when I had my druid ready to roll on ANYTHING leather
    A DPS druid will be able to roll on anything leather.

    Quote Originally Posted by krunksmash View Post
    if your not the tank you don't get to ninja tank gear if your not a healer your don't get to ninja heal gear. this is a good answer the 101 - 200 based on raid role is a viable solution to ninjaing
    Actually, as all healing gear is now suitable for DPS roles, it will still be perfectly ninjable

    ---------- Post added 2011-10-08 at 08:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    Can't wait for QQ about Prot Warriors and Paladins able to roll 2H weapons against DPS specs. Either that, or QQ from Blood DKs unable to roll on them.

    I'm glad I'll never have to experience that horrible, horrible system. o.O
    I think you don't get it.
    Protecting from what you are described is one the few things this system does achieve.

    ---------- Post added 2011-10-08 at 08:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinofcancer View Post
    Enh shammies and feral kitties are the only flaws I see in this system, with them being able to roll on pretty much anything with a bonus. Maybe Blizz will fix it, maybe not. Its still better than the system we have now.
    In order of how screwed up the system is:
    Druids and shamans in DPS role will be able to roll on anything of their armour type, while healers and bears will be restricted to their stat type.
    Clothies will also be able to roll on anything, but they at least have only one base stat.
    Str weapons: both prots and DPS specs of wars and DKs use 1h, bots tank DKs and DPS wars and retris use 2h.
    It works perfectly fine for plate armour. DPS plate is for DPS, tank plate is for tanks, heal plate is for holydins.

  10. #150
    this still does not help hybrid classes or keep them from rolling on other people gear. As an ele shaman spirit is the same as hit but if I roll need on an item with spirit it will more then likely be flagged as a healer piece. But also as a dps roll ill be able to have equal need rolls as rogues even though I have no use for agility.

  11. #151
    The Patient paladinofcancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weerra View Post
    In order of how screwed up the system is:
    Druids and shamans in DPS role will be able to roll on anything of their armour type, while healers and bears will be restricted to their stat type.
    Clothies will also be able to roll on anything, but they at least have only one base stat.
    Str weapons: both prots and DPS specs of wars and DKs use 1h, bots tank DKs and DPS wars and retris use 2h.
    It works perfectly fine for plate armour. DPS plate is for DPS, tank plate is for tanks, heal plate is for holydins.
    I don't think clothies will be able to roll on anything. Why would a mage or warlock get to roll on +spirit gear? Shadow priests, like druids and shamans in dps will be able to roll on anything in their armor type, but disc and holy if queued as healers will be restricted to spirit cloth, and mages and locks restricted to cloth with two secondary stats (spirit is sort of a secondary stat these days but its still one of the 5 base stats).

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Dazzy View Post
    When you roll on bear gear, since it "everything I use is considered dps gear" (by you 3 posts up), you'll get the same +100 as rogues and all the other ferals.
    It screws neither of you, since bears can and do wear agility rings/trinkets depending on fight, incoming damage, dps requirements for enrages, etc.

    As to others, it's not hard to add 'if you are enhancement spec you're not getting a bonus on int gear'
    Mages/locks will not get a bonus on spirit gear.

    Use your heads people.
    If the system is working as described, my role is tank and the agi piece that drops is more than likely going to be flagged as dps gear. That is the issue. So it's either going to default to me as the druid tank or default to the dps, or it's going to be an even roll across the board in which case why have the system in place at all? Same thing applies to hybrid casters in the case of spirit gear and DK tanks vs plate dps in the case of 2h strength weapons. There are going to be so many situations where two different roles compete for the same gear that the fair solution is to simply /roll and there is no point to their loot system.

  13. #153
    This is prolly the best thing they could have done concering this. I see no flaws in it whatsoever. that is if they are able to rightly set up specs for items, which i think they can.

  14. #154
    Herald of the Titans Kael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    Nope.You're giving a lot too much thoughts into this system. Players will get a role check before entering the instance and will either be "tank", "heal", or "dps". Just like in 5-mans.

    Items will be flagged for either "tank", "heal", or "dps" and makes no distinction between specs.

    Case1: 2H weapon drops and is flagged for DPS only. Blood DKs cannot roll on it.
    Case2: 2H weapon drops and is flagged for both tank and DPS. Protection Warrior can roll on it.

    It makes absolutely 0 distinction between specs.
    If that's completely how the flagging system works, then we have a problem. The way I understood it, a player is tagged as a tank, healer, or DPS and that won't change regardless of the player's spec for a specific pull and if my bear goes Boomkin because a boss only needs 1 tank, I can still roll on the agi leather, but not the int leather. Obviously, this still leaves the problem described above about feral/boom DPS and enhance/ele, but so long as the ITEMS are role/Class specified and not just role specified, most* of the issues are solved.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by FearGX View Post
    I hope they also add, if you already have the item, or a better ilvl item, you cannot gain the need bonus. Just a thought, but all in all a positive thing this is.
    I highly doubt they add such a feature. It would be way too much work for them to check not only your gear, but your inventory and your bank aswell. Not to mention that you might want to "need" two or more of the same item for different gemming specs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    Players will get a role check before entering the instance and will either be "tank", "heal", or "dps". Just like in 5-mans.

    Items will be flagged for either "tank", "heal", or "dps" and makes no distinction between specs.

    Case1: 2H weapon drops and is flagged for DPS only. Blood DKs cannot roll on it.
    Case2: 2H weapon drops and is flagged for both tank and DPS. Protection Warrior can roll on it.

    It makes absolutely 0 distinction between specs.
    This is true. Quoting from Blizzards official announcement:
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Please keep in mind that, at least for now, this system will only look at class role, and not player spec.

    Not sure if they will make an exception for 2h weapons. If they don't, I can see a lot of rage coming their way.
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  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Xebu View Post
    This is true. Quoting from Blizzards official announcement:
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Please keep in mind that, at least for now, this system will only look at class role, and not player spec.
    No, because it says it will look at "class role" and not only "role". So they can obviously flag items as "DK TANK" and "WARRIOR TANK".

    The only problem I see is the druid class:
    A druid that entered the dungeon as DPS could either be a moonkin or a kitty. So he will be able to roll on agi and int items, competing with all healers, casters, enhancer, rogues, hunters and even feral tanks.

  17. #157
    Feral Druid will be a mess, could be a tank or a dps. Unless they use the system Puri described.

    If a Feral Druid selects role of Tank then a flag for Feral Tank on tanking gear will let him roll on it. But if he selects dps he will be flagged as Feral DPS and not be able to roll on that same piece of tanking gear.

    This same way a Shadow Priest can be allowed to roll on spirit gear. But this will create alot of "Roles" where some would need to get specially tagged to certain items. And it wouldnt surprise me one bit some items will be forgotten. So i still think loot will be a mess, and loot drama is raid killer nr.#1.

  18. #158
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Puri View Post
    No, because it says it will look at "class role" and not only "role". So they can obviously flag items as "DK TANK" and "WARRIOR TANK".

    The only problem I see is the druid class:
    A druid that entered the dungeon as DPS could either be a moonkin or a kitty. So he will be able to roll on agi and int items, competing with all healers, casters, enhancer, rogues, hunters and even feral tanks.
    This could be very easily solved by implementing a "hidden" check for damage dealers. Imagine if when accepting the role check as damage, the system looks at your base stats and decides you are either a "caster dps" or a "physical dps" by seeing if you're stacking INT or not. So there would actually be 4 roles in the system, but only 3 visible to players.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    The implication being that YOU know what you are doing. Which may or may not be true. There are bad DPS out there, thats true. But attitudes like yours aren't really desireable either.
    In all honesty, I'd rather have a DPS pulling 6k in full 391/397 gear than have someone with Airwaves' attitude and god complex in my raid at any time. Nothing brings down a raid like a player spouting bullshit all night long.

    On topic: This is a very good thing. DPS gear would have been taken by healers/tanks a lot more than healing/tank gear taken by DPS and this new roll system fixes it. Hopefully it's applied to 5 mans in the near future.
    LOLINFRACTED

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by paladinofcancer View Post
    I don't think clothies will be able to roll on anything. Why would a mage or warlock get to roll on +spirit gear? Shadow priests, like druids and shamans in dps will be able to roll on anything in their armor type, but disc and holy if queued as healers will be restricted to spirit cloth, and mages and locks restricted to cloth with two secondary stats (spirit is sort of a secondary stat these days but its still one of the 5 base stats).
    They can't restrict holy/disc on only spirit gear. Heck, just look at Firelands itemization. With that restriction holy/disc wouldn't be able to get cloak, bracers, belt, boots or ring. Plus using non-spirit gear is perfectly valid as disc/holy.

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