10-man Loot system

[Shazzia]

The 10-man loot system is terrible... really bad! I'm an hunter in a 7/7 hc guild, and still only 383 item level equipped after 55 heroic kills (various bosses)
After my guild got 7/7 hc, my friend (also hunter) started to raid in a 7/7 hc guild, but a 25-man. His item level is now 391 and full heroic...

I feel very punished for being in a 10-man guild where stuff literally NEVER drop. I have yet to see a Helm from shannox / legs from alysrazor / back from Rhyolith, boots from Baleroc, polearm from domo, bow/trinket from rag...

A 25-man guild can gear up 5 people faster than a 10-man geares up 1 guy.

Let's say you kill Baleroc on 25 man, that means 9 items can drop at the same time! 5 items, 3 tokens and 1 firestone (if lucky). In 10, it can drop 4 items (but firestone much lower % chance). But since 25-man loot is designed not to drop 5 of the same items, it gives a bigger chance to get that item you really want, but in 10-man the same shit can drop every week for ever, like the leather chest from rhyolith...

Blizzard really needs to fix this

Look at http://www.wowprogress.com/gearscore/ on who's top geared
atleast top 200 players are in a 25-man guild, doesn't that say anything about how 10-mans are punished with loot?

[Ryme]

There has to be good incentive for 25 man or no one one would do it.

[Count Zero]

I think in 10s it should drop 4 and let you pick 2. Or something like that. Maybe with tokens drop 2 and let you pick 1. Or something. Because the problem you describe is very real.

---------- Post added 2011-10-07 at 06:04 PM ----------

There has to be good incentive for 25 man or no one one would do it.

Not everything is about external motivation. Some people do things for the intrinsic value. Don't get me wrong, I don't inherently disagree with your argument -- I'm just saying 25-player raiding would still go on, absolutely, even if there were no difference in reward at all.

But either way, I think the current system needs to be addressed. The huge loot tables for individual bosses means that on 10 your chance of seeing a specific item is just too low, imo.

[Deleted]

The 10-man loot system is terrible... really bad!
...
But since 25-man loot is designed not to drop 5 of the same items, it gives a bigger chance to get that item you really want, but in 10-man the same shit can drop every week for ever
...
Blizzard really needs to fix this

Aaaaactually....

10 and 25 uses the same system (a predefined loot-table of stuff that may drop on this boss), only difference being amounts and droprate.
25 is not designed to drop 5 items this week and another 5, different, items next week. You're implying that 10 is like that, just because YOU have seen Rhyos leather chest so often. Both are designed to drop stuff from loot-table. If all items have the same percentage droprate, then you can end up seeing the leather chest for all your kills, while the druid that wants it but is in another raid, always sees the mail chest. It's VERY bad luck and VERY unlikely to happen, but that's how the system works.
Blizzard doesn't need to fix this, it is actually working as intended...

[huangzhong9]

not entirely related: There is the same chance of getting 2 identical pieces of loot off of a boss as there is of getting two different pieces off of a boss(just this week alysrazor i think it was dropped three identical healer leather boots for us.)

On-topic: I do agree that it takes much longer to gear up from 10 mans. In the past this was slightly off-set by different sized loot tables between 10 and 25 man bosses. I can't really think of any way to fix this problem while keeping 10 man and 25 man loot tables the same.

[Shazzia]

Aaaaactually....

10 and 25 uses the same system (a predefined loot-table of stuff that may drop on this boss), only difference being amounts and droprate.
25 is not designed to drop 5 items this week and another 5, different, items next week. You're implying that 10 is like that, just because YOU have seen Rhyos leather chest so often. Both are designed to drop stuff from loot-table. If all items have the same percentage droprate, then you can end up seeing the leather chest for all your kills, while the druid that wants it but is in another raid, always sees the mail chest. It's VERY bad luck and VERY unlikely to happen, but that's how the system works.
Blizzard doesn't need to fix this, it is actually working as intended...

What I meant about that is, if two pieces of [Crap] drops, there is 3 more items to be random selected by the game. But as you already have 2 [Crap] you can't loot any more [Crap] THAT KILL, which means the 3 other loot might be [Shiny]

[Entyice]

I feel the same way the 10 man loot system is horrible.
I have two 7/7 heroic characters main raids 25 then our alt 10
My main has been near full bis for a while yet my Alt priest killed H rag with like a 376 ilvl
There is just two much disparity in drops even more so when you run a 3+ caster group

[Deleted]

What I meant about that is, if two pieces of [Crap] drops, there is 3 more items to be random selected by the game. But as you already have 2 [Crap] you can't loot any more [Crap] THAT KILL, which means the 3 other loot might be [Shiny]

Honestly....

To YOU, that leather chest is [Crap], but every druid in the raid will love it and that makes it a [Shiny]. The druid in my example thinks the mail chest is [Crap], simply because he can't use it. It may be [Shiny] to you, but it's not to a druid.

My point? Loot being good or bad depends on the raidgroup. Implementing a check for classes, specs and current gear when determining the loot dropped, so that only upgrades drop, will be one hell of a task for any dev-team in any game. It's not worth it. There needs to be some random element of the drops to keep you from saying "okay, we're done with this boss and since we can skip it, let's no do it ever again, because nobody needs anything from it".

[Gandrake]

There has to be good incentive for 25 man or no one one would do it.

There has to be good incentive for 10 man or no one would do it.

You see what I did there?

You're implying

no, hes implying that 25 man drops 3 tier tokens and 5 pieces of loot. 10 man drops 2 pieces of loot and 1 tier token. 25s get nearly 3x as much loot as a 10 man and have a better shot at procuring a more desirable cache.

It's incredibly game-breaking.


Warbourne
Sulfuras is the only loot that's even dropped that I could use this tier.

Fuck me though, forget me. Do you know how long Droodsdk had been using Foe Reaper? you know, the little rock on a stick from that one heroic? Yeah, he was using it when we killed Ragnaros 2 months ago.

I don't even know when the hell he got a Akirus, but he sure as fuck deserved it.

10 man loot is fucked, and it's not an opinion.

[Deleted]

I think in 10s it should drop 4 and let you pick 2. Or something like that. Maybe with tokens drop 2 and let you pick 1. Or something. Because the problem you describe is very real.[COLOR="red"]

In which case 25 man should drop 12 drops and let you pick 6. Otherwise hardcore 25 man guilds would have to run 10 man to maximize their loot gain, which should not be happening to destroy the competetive part of PvE in WoW.

Also people do not understand that 25 man disenchant just as much shit as 10 man and that "that one piece of loot that you want never drop"- still exists, and when that piece finally drop, you are not e.g. the only hunter, there will be 3 other hunters that want the exact same piece.

[Bitlovin]

10 man loot is fucked, and it's not an opinion.

I cannot disagree with this.

[Deleted]

25s get nearly 3x as much loot as a 10 man and have a better shot at procuring a more desirable cache

They also happen to be almost three times as many people in the raid. The bigger chance to get [Shiny] drops is somewhat offset by the amount of people that can possibly use that specific item and the lower chance of actually recieving the [Shiny]...

[Muldour]

There has to be good incentive for 25 man or no one one would do it.

So not only is raiding in a 25 man guild easier...but they should get rewarded further for it being easier?
and for those that will say its not easier...try this out
2 dps die in a 10 man...your screwed...2 dps die in a 25 man...oh well.
1 healer dies in a 10 man (2 healing boss fights)...your screwed most of the time...1 healer dies in a 25 man...oh well keep going.

far FAR more room for error in 25 man.

OT: I agree with you. the dps in my guild have been jipped with drops...especially the clothies and hunter. Never seen the trinket (only the str trinket drops for us) or bow off rag. It doesn't really effect me considering i'm a tank and we get tank gear and OS gear for us all the time...but i'd rather see some other loot drop for once. Blizzard should do a scan of the raid as you enter...so that way you aren't getting loot that no one can use...ie melee daggers when there is no rogue in the raid, or agility axes with no shaman in raid, or the consistent drops that just get DE'd because people already have the gear. The scan would determine the raid make up and limit the type of gear that can drop. And then proceed to determine what gear players already have...and again...limit the gear that drops. My tanking counter-part would love to see that shield drop off of Baelroc (me being a DK i get to use that nice and shiney 2h axe off Shannox ). I do realize that this would cause people to gear up EXTREMELY quick...but they need SOMETHING to be done about the crappy drop rates of certain gear. Even if that means make everything an equal %

[Shazzia]

Please don't turn this into a 10 vs 25 topic

[Alzu]

I agree, that the problem is very real. I've yet to see the leather boots from Alysrazor, the shield from Beth, protector chest token. We are a 7/7 hc guild and at least my itemlevel still is ~380 (ok, volcano lowering it but anyways).

I know loot is awesome, I'd like to have BiS gear. But you just have to let it have some time and also think that it's only loot, that's not the only reason you should be raiding

[Notdev]

QQ? If you dislike it, run 25 mans. Blizzard has provided you with an alternative.

There is no way to solve this problem without changing the amount of drops. If you up 10 man drops to 4 per boss, 25 man drops need to be upped to 10 per boss.

Having a boss drop 4 items in 10 man but having to only choose to loot 2 would be no good. It would add a mandatory loot council to every group that ever goes in to a raid and would simply complicate loot systems.

It sucks, but meh. There is no real way to change this. If you're downing stuff without the loot, does the loot really matter that much? There are no 1-2 upgrades that are gamebreaking that will allow you to kill a boss that you weren't able to before. Does loot make it easier? Yes. Does it make the difference? No.

So not only is raiding in a 25 man guild easier...but they should get rewarded further for it being easier?
and for those that will say its not easier...try this out
2 dps die in a 10 man...your screwed...2 dps die in a 25 man...oh well.
1 healer dies in a 10 man (2 healing boss fights)...your screwed most of the time...1 healer dies in a 25 man...oh well keep going.

Lol this again. You're wrong. And this is coming from a 10 man raider.

---------- Post added 2011-10-07 at 07:14 PM ----------

Adding to my previous post, the main part of this problem is that there are only 7 bosses in firelands. The loot tables have to be deep or they wouldn't be able to get everyone a full set of gear.
Hell, they don't anyway, Correct me if I'm wrong but the only 391+ belts are plate tanking (can double as dps), leather agility, and cloth? The only 391 capes are for casters and leather agility users?

Etc etc. This wouldn't be a problem if there were 12 bosses.

[Dannz]

So not only is raiding in a 25 man guild easier...but they should get rewarded further for it being easier?
and for those that will say its not easier...try this out
2 dps die in a 10 man...your screwed...2 dps die in a 25 man...oh well.
1 healer dies in a 10 man (2 healing boss fights)...your screwed most of the time...1 healer dies in a 25 man...oh well keep going.

far FAR more room for error in 25 man.

hey... check this out

spotting who the orbs target on sinestra in 10 man - joke
spotting who the orbs target on sinestra in 25 man - harder

nefarian's p2 adds require a team of interupters in 25's, a single interupter per platform works in 10's, so no one screws up the interupt rotation

compare anything on ragnaros heroic in 10 and 25, and tell me that 25 is easier

and this is coming from a 10 man raider. anyone claiming 25's to be easier than 10's is a butt hurt 10 man raider...

[LegitHunter]

RNG bro you need to upgrade to a 25man or something cause 10 man is easy mode

<Infracted>

[Deleted]

You didnt honestly expect to have the capability to gear less people FASTER and still have EASIER content, did you?

[Rossholee]

There has to be good incentive for 25 man or no one one would do it.

Exactly, this is the way Blizzard wanted it so people would play in larger groups. You should be rewarded better for having 25 people work together to take down a boss.