Balance game around 1v1

[Deleted]

What are you looking for is not perfect 1v1 balance, but reduction of synergies and hard counters. Blizzard is unable to do anything with that for various reasons so, yeah that's a problem.

[Einzweidrei]

Problem with tank:

Basically NO ONE would be able to kill the tank due to avoidance and mitigation. Only if you gave him too much avoidance and mitigation, freaking obviously.

If the healer didn't heal it would die before the tank. If it alternated the tank would still win due to mitigation and higher health. If it only healed... it would run out of mana. Only if you give the tank too much mitigation and the healer can only heal or dps but never both.

CC would die before the tank due to them having the same DPS but tank has higher health + mitigation. Only if the "hard CC" I said they would have was entirely useless.

DPS would die in 20 secs so depending on the tanks mitigation would decide if its even possible to kill the tank at all. Don't forget I gave DPS soft CC. Also, could just make the tank have to balance his mitigation/avoidance with DPS.

Don't get your panties in a bunch though, Dyr. It's not like my little 4-class 1v1 balance example is in open beta and is being released tomorrow morning. It was an example to show that in a span of seconds I could think of a way in which 1v1 can be balanced without all of the different classes involved having all of the same abilities. The only reason what I whipped up on the spot wasn't perfectly balanced is because you read into it things that would unbalance it instead of spending just as much effort thinking of a way to make it work. Derr.

[Deleted]

Play a lvl 85 class you never played before, even if you are a very good pvp & pve player, you'll do total crap for the first hours because you'll need to learn all abilities, when to use them and experience the spec, then you'll learn the mechanisms, then you can start over for the next spec. Play your class hours and hours and hours and you'll master it up to the last spell in you spellbook. You'll know when to use this and that, you'll have in mind all possibilities and usable skills in any situation, you'll understand how complex is your class.


All 10 class have a similar degree of complexity, I know that some say you can play a DK with 3 binds and a mage with half a bar of keybinds, but when you go deep into the class spells and mechanics, you see that it's extremly complex at high skills levels. There's a ton or variables, I don't know how the guy that work on it handle everything together but that's a ton of work imo.

They have to balance 10 classes that all have 3 specs, taking into account pvp, pve, casuals, hardcores, they have to come to some compromises, so tell me how the f*** they can balance this game in 1v1 ? They can't, or they might need a super computer in which they put all data and who would fix values and stuff.

[Merendel]

DPS - 100 hp, no avoid/mitigation, soft CC, 10 dps
Tank - 150 hp, some avoid and mitigation abilities, no CC, 5 dps
Healer - 100 hp, no avoid/mitigation, no CC, 5 dps, 5 hps
CC - 100 hp, no avoid/mitigation, hard CC, 5 dps

Oh look. 4 different classes, whipped up in the span of 30 seconds, that are balanced in 1v1 encounters but without having the same capabilities.

yes and the 30seconds shows in the results.... The results of your "Ballanced" 4 classes, disregaurding the fact that wow has 10 not 4.
Dps vs healer, healer at best draws, if the DPS's soft CC in any way lowers DPS or HPS of the healer the healer always loses.
dps vs tank: depends on the avoidance/mitigation and what you mean by soft CC. If they mitigate more than 25% of incomeing damage they win, otherwise they loose
DPS vs CC: DPS always wins unless CC can do damage while the DPS is CC'd AND can keep the DPS CC'd 50% of the time or more.

Heal vs tank: Tank always looses. TankDPS counters healer HPS exactly, neither has CC to tip the ballance, Healer DPS has all the time in the world to break through tank mitigation. This assumes the healers HPS/DPS values are not mutualy exclusive. If they cant do both at the same time the tank will win every time.
heal vs CC: CC always looses. Agian the only exception is if 50% of the time the healer is compleatly locked down.

Tank vs CC: Crapshoot all depends on how powerful the CC is Still needs between 33% and 50% total lockdown to beat the tank. otherwise the tank will win

So the results of your system are CC gets smashed by everybody unless you make their CC so ridiculously OP that their foes spend 50% of the fight doing nothing. Everybody hates CC that powerful, every game that's had it has eventually had to nerf it wow included. DPS win's or has a strong edge vs every oponant. Heals stomps CC, Gives the tank death by 1000 paper cuts, and might pull an underdog win agianst the DPS. The poor tank has the redeeming quality of being less gimped than the CC but that is not saying much. I'd suggest not giving up your day job to take up class balance unless the idea is how to make pvp worse.

[Dyrtnap]

Don't get your panties in a bunch though, Dyr. It's not like my little 4-class 1v1 balance example is in open beta and is being released tomorrow morning. It was an example to show that in a span of seconds I could think of a way in which 1v1 can be balanced without all of the different classes involved having all of the same abilities. The only reason what I whipped up on the spot wasn't perfectly balanced is because you read into it things that would unbalance it instead of spending just as much effort thinking of a way to make it work. Derr.

You really don't understand game mechanics do you. None of those things or idea's are even close to even working. You sat there talking about how pro you are at game mechanics yet are too short sighted to realized that not a single one of your archetypes would even balance against half the classes. NOT EVEN ONE. NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT. This isn't about you thinking of something decent on the spot that could be improved upon this is about you not understanding that you don't understand which is why I said stop embarrassing yourself. There was nothing in it that was even close to working so there was nothing positive for me to think about. Derr.

Basically NO ONE would be able to kill the tank due to avoidance and mitigation. Only if you gave him too much avoidance and mitigation, freaking obviously.

Even with zero mitigation he beats the healer. And most tanks have roughly 50% mitigation. So even if we go 30% he still beats the DPS while having ~ 8 health left at 20 secs.

If the healer didn't heal it would die before the tank. If it alternated the tank would still win due to mitigation and higher health. If it only healed... it would run out of mana. Only if you give the tank too much mitigation and the healer can only heal or dps but never both.

Again in case you missed it at zero mitigation the tank would still win.

CC would die before the tank due to them having the same DPS but tank has higher health + mitigation. Only if the "hard CC" I said they would have was entirely useless.

Again unless the CC class can CC without it breaking on damage for ~50%+ of the time he loses as well.

DPS would die in 20 secs so depending on the tanks mitigation would decide if its even possible to kill the tank at all. Don't forget I gave DPS soft CC. Also, could just make the tank have to balance his mitigation/avoidance with DPS.

That "soft" CC would again have to not break on damage or he dies vs the tank at 20 secs.

1v1 balancing WILL NEVER WORK. Synergy is the real problem. The only reason I can find for you not getting that is that you aren't very experienced at PvP and have only done duels, BG's and 2v2. When you get at higher levels you see that synergy is everything which is why any ole' comp won't work even for low level players in the 1800's. You wonder why you see 60%+ teams with locks and shaman on them at the high duelist to glad level? Because of how well they compliment and enhance other classes.

If you want the game balanced keep petitioning for Blizzard to take the GW route and make ALL spells work differently against players.

[Potatox]

DPS - 100 hp, no avoid/mitigation, soft CC, 10 dps
Tank - 150 hp, some avoid and mitigation abilities, no CC, 5 dps
Healer - 100 hp, no avoid/mitigation, no CC, 5 dps, 5 hps
CC - 100 hp, no avoid/mitigation, hard CC, 5 dps

Oh look. 4 different classes, whipped up in the span of 30 seconds, that are balanced in 1v1 encounters but without having the same capabilities.

If I thought about it for 40 hours a week and had 50k/year motivation, I guarantee I'd be able to expand that to balance WoW around 1v1, flawlessly.

Those arent classes, they are roles. Implying teamwork to it.

[geitepung]

Basically, what you are wanting to do is completely ruin the game by making 1vs1 one dimensional and completely sterile and dull. No, you CAN'T balance 1vs1 and still maintain class uniqueness because that's the whole reason it isn't balanced in the first place. Frost mages are known for their crazy cc, not to mention dmg and that's why classes like the warrior stand next to zero chance against them. Do I mind? NO! Because the greatest moments in pvp are the one's where you beat the odds and beat a class that is considered op against yours. If you don't understand why 1vs1 is unbalanced, you're not gonna understand how to balance it.
And honestly, 1vs1 is more balanced now than it has been in a good while. There are those comps that are impossible, yes, but every class has it's bane.

[Albert the fish]

Disagree. Even with all the variety in wow I believe it can still be balanced around 1v1 and still maintain class uniqueness.

in that case, please NEVER get involved in game design in any fashion.

if you cannot even see how 1v1 can't scale up to 2v2 or 3v3 or 5v5 or onward then i have little hope you'll grasp balance issues that are more convoluted.

to simplify it the best i can to by quoting an old saying about teamwork making things "more than the sum of their parts" right now blizzard is trying to balance around this truism of life, but it is extremely difficult even at the arena pvp level. bg levels of people or raiding and it gets worse.
especially because this is a game with 10 classes, each having 3 primary specs and countless half-breed specs.

[sandmoth12]

1v1

player 1: strenght 50. player 2: strenght 50. Even fight.

2v2
player 1: strenght 50 and player 2 strenght 50. Vs. player 3: strenght 50. and player 4 strenght 50. Even fight.

ETC.

Of course it wont be even in a 2v2 when the assault tactic is 2v1. Still, it IS 2v2 and with even numbers and capabilites, the battle would be balanced.

Do not decline the possibility just due to ignorance and lack of imagination > the fact that wow is not meant to have such a system.

^This. Just because you can't imagine wow being balanced around 1v1 and still maintaining it's variety doesn't mean it can't be.

[Deleted]

balancing the game more in 1vs1 is a good idea cause team matches will never be good balanced
but right now its impossible some classes are far to strong in 1on1 also rock paper scizzor system

its not a good idea 1v1 will never be balanced and its not competetive in anyway 2v2 isnt even balanced so dnt expect to make it balanced

[geitepung]

You can totally balance it yes. The day that happens however is the day pvp becomes broken aka, duller than knitting, due to everyone having the same abilities, stats and moves. What a boring and idiotic suggestion. WoW is already catering a lot to the casual player as it is, they're not so foolish however that they'll break pvp just so someone with less than a brain that sucks can feel good about himself in somehting that still requires skill. You want 1vs1 to be balanced? Find a mirror and go duel yourself.

[krunksmash]

wow is a PvE. game stop the QQ about balancing pvp and learn to work with your team mates. they scraped the 2v2 for rated gear cause it was IMPOSABLE to balance it with out screwing up the PvE aspect.

[Deleted]

wow is a PvE. game stop the QQ about balancing pvp and learn to work with your team mates. they scraped the 2v2 for rated gear cause it was IMPOSABLE to balance it with out screwing up the PvE aspect.

please stop with wow is a PVE game, PVP has been around since the start as well as raids so its both, sick of ppl sayingit pve only

[lurialus]

I think one of the good things about pvp is that classes arent balanced for 1v1, if they did they would have the exact same abilities. Sure sometimes certain classes have a weak season, namely resto druids at the moment, but they've also been very powerful for a long time, as well as feral doing very well at the moment. One of the good things is that because classes arent balanced for 1v1, and different classes are very different, it gives pvp a whole lot more strategy, having to plan certain comps, and changing your playstyle based on what you come up against.

[krunksmash]

please stop with wow is a PVE game, PVP has been around since the start as well as raids so its both, sick of ppl sayingit pve only

Actually it was launched as a PvE game. the first two battlegrounds were not introduced till 7,7,2005. the main plot of WoW IS PvE. also pvp is not meant to be a 1 man army its meant to be a team effort, so learn to work as a team and problem solved.

[Yoshimiko]

The issue I currently have is - I play Disc/Rogue. If my disc dies, and their dps dies - I generally can't kill a good healer. Even if my disc DOESN'T die, it's still a rough battle trying to kill a healer.

DPS should be able to kill a healer, if they play better. Currently though everyone has instant casts. Interrupts are impossible when an HPal can heal through 2 dps without EVER casting a spell - with just light peels. Rdruids entire arsenal is instant casts, minus regrowth cyclone and Healing touch{and lolnourish}. Priests and their 40k bubbles, gogo instant cast mana-free bubbles{I think they actually regen mana when they pop}.

All around I dislike what's happened to pvp. It feels more like what people parodied wrath to be, but only for a select few classes! (frost mages, Frost dks), while heals are suppose to go oom after a few seconds of spamming their mana intensive crap - this definitely isn't the case. I loved the idea of what wrath pvp would be. I hate what it actually became.

[krunksmash]

actually frost DKs are easy to kill its blood/UH that are the pains. Blood cause its a tank; staying alive is what they do. and UH cause it is basicly THE pvp spec for a DK.

[Velshin]

There is no way this game will be balanced around 1 vs 1 because it's not fighting game. If you want a game that is balanced around 1 vs 1 try games such as Soul Calibur or Mortal Kombat since these games are dedicated for 1 vs 1.

[sandmoth12]

I don't understand why it's so hard to imagine a game that's balanced around all levels (1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 5v5 and BG's) and still has variety. I am not asking for a perfect balance (in that case every class would have to be exactly the same) I am asking for a good semi balance that allows for uniqueness between classes.

Focusing balance just around 3v3 is stupid because maybe only 25% of pvp player base enjoys 3v3. You can't group it all in one lump like that. Some players like 2v2, some like 1v1 and some like BG's. You have to balance all of it not just a small portion.

[Pannekaker]

No, just no. It will totally ruin everything. :P