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  1. #1

    Help with Shadow

    Hey all,

    My guild recently merged into a 25 man (2 tens man originally) and got 5 more people and there is now an influx of healers (8.) So 2 of us are learning our respective DPS specs. I am attempting to learn shadow and believe i'm doing OK with it. I'm doing it all in heal gear as I have yet to grab some dps gear and the only place i can get that is from valor or from FL, since the intellect loss from jp would suck.

    So I've been reading some guides and trying stuff out and yet (keep in mind this is iLvL 369, i don't raid this toon as my main but still want to be good at it) i'm pulling unbuffed 14K on dummies which feels horrendous.

    I believe I have figured the spec itself out, but I am wondering what kind of addons would help with my dps. I tried quartz for a DoT tracker and I can't stand it, its too small and its including a bunch of other stuff that I can't figure out how to remove. I'm using NTK to keep track of my buffs such as empowered shadow, shadow orb, Dark evangelism, and since mana isn't a problem i'm using my shadowfiend on cooldown rather than when needed.

    So far here is what I have been doing:

    OPENER: Pre-cast Vampiric Touch, SW:P, Devouring Plague, Mind Flay until at least 1 orb, Mind Blast to get empowering shadow. I only refresh my DoTs when empowered shadow is up (which is always, i only use Mind Blast when i have an orb and so far luck has been nice to me and not making me wait half a minute for one to spawn) and I'm using Dark Evangelism on Cooldown as well as my Heart of Ignacious as soon as it hits 5 stacks.

    After my opener, in general i just spam mind-flay, use Mind-blast on CD if an orb is up or i wait for one to come up, and refresh my dots in coordination with my buffs. Once I start to get low on mana I incorporate Shadow Word: Death and use it on Cooldown until i'm back over 40% mana, which either comes with some kind of outside source or from DE or Fiend.

    At the moment, i'm only at 21.7% haste and just above the hitcap and i'm working on just stacking haste, then mastery then crit.

    Anything I'm doing wrong and anything that I can get that would help me?

  2. #2
    Could you link to your armory please?

    Going by what you've said, you seem to be doing okay. Don't go by training dummy numbers too much, shadow is fairly reliant on buffs.

    Im not very familiar with other dot tracking addons, although im pretty sure you can make the dots bigger on quartz.
    In terms of UI, im using ElvUI as its pretty much got everything i could want as shadow.

    Watch Crimson's raids streamed LIVE on: www.twitch.tv/kur1 (Rogue PoV)

  3. #3
    Do you have a parse we can look at?

  4. #4
    Kilee's guide (stickied in this forum) is really, really good for your question.

    Like a few other dps classes I know of (mage, hunter, others?) doing WELL as shadow has a huuuuuge amount to do with exactly how you line up cooldowns/potions for your opener, and then during the rest of the fight.

    Finding the last 10% of your dps is only possible once you have a well tuned UI.

    But first you need to focus on basics like keeping your dot uptime high, how to itemize and when to cast MB (waiting for orbs may or may not be correct, depending on your gear).
    Last edited by zakaluka; 2011-10-08 at 06:55 AM.

  5. #5
    Shadow relies on raid buffs more than you'd expect. I've been shadow since expac (2 years exp holy previously) and everything you've been doing I've found to be correct, EXCEPT, I normally open with SW:P and then spam mind flay until I have a shadow orb, then DP and VT so they gain the benefit and my volcano deck/ power torrent have usually proceed by then so they gain each of the bonuses. I am 371 ilvl and do about 16k on the target dummies. When I was doing Shannox back in about week 2 of 4.2 I was doing 21k at about a 363 ilvl if that gives you a better idea of the difference. Hope it helps.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Khadir09 View Post
    Shadow relies on raid buffs more than you'd expect. I've been shadow since expac (2 years exp holy previously) and everything you've been doing I've found to be correct, EXCEPT, I normally open with SW:P and then spam mind flay until I have a shadow orb, then DP and VT so they gain the benefit and my volcano deck/ power torrent have usually proceed by then so they gain each of the bonuses. I am 371 ilvl and do about 16k on the target dummies. When I was doing Shannox back in about week 2 of 4.2 I was doing 21k at about a 363 ilvl if that gives you a better idea of the difference. Hope it helps.
    If your raiding you should always open with VT, i expect you have a countdown pull from a tank, then SWain and DP, this way you wont lose any dps time waiting for the rng of an orb. I then mindflay till i have a orb, pop archangel, mindblast then re-apply VT and DP and mindflay spam. You can use SF when you prefer but i personally find that with 4 piece its good to pop it early with initial CD's as it hits like a beast.

  7. #7
    I would highly suggest an add on like DoTimer or Power Auras to manage your buffs when refreshing your DoTs if you don't have one already, especially with the Heart trinket. Another thing I would like to note is to always get the most out of your VT from your buffs by refreshing it right before your big buffs expire. It's a huge amount of your damage and you get the most benefit of your trinkets/ Power Torrent in doing so. I would really caution you on using SW over 25% as well, It's a quick dps loss with many GCDs that could be used for Mind Flays. Ideally Shadowfiend and your wings will keep you from ever going OOM. One last thing I would suggest is the no channeling macro below, and don't forget, your shadow fiend benefits from buffs

    /cast [nochanneling:Mind Flay] Mind Flay
    Last edited by Khadir09; 2011-10-08 at 07:03 AM.

  8. #8
    Quartz is extremely easy to change; did you look at the settings at all? The size and placement of everything can be customized - font, cast bars for player, target, and focus, as well as buffs/debuffs (incl. DOTs). If necessary, I could post a screenshot of the settings for these.

    If you prefer, you can try ClassTimers. Similar, but more DBM style countdown bars. Like Quartz, the size and placement of the bars/fonts can be changed very easily.

    As I understand it, you need to refresh VT and DP after Empowering Shadow is up in order for them to immediately benefit from the Emp. buff. SW:P will reflect the Emp. buff on the next refreshing Mind Flay tick.

    You're right to use Shadowfiend on CD; almost always a dps gain. If you know when Bloodlust is coming, time it to pop your friend right before it is cast so he picks it up as well. Haven't been running out of mana at all in 2/7 HM Firelands, 25-man, so saving fiend for mana return hasn't been necessary.

  9. #9
    --------READ---------



    ignore EVERYONE telling you to open with VT. try this.

    Opening Rotation: SW:P>Shadowfiend>MF x 1.2 times>Arcangel>MB>VT>DV:P...... then just continue with a normal rotation.

    u DONT need to be a lil over the hitcap. u can actually be a lil bit under it. i'm at 15.96% hit chance, and i RARELY miss.

    if u have any questions. you can hit me up on "killtrick" on the Horde US illidan server.

    also, heres a fun fact. MAKE sure your using a Volcanic Potion before u start the opening rotation.

    P.S. i HIGHLY reccommend getting the ShadowTimers addon.

    http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-a...dowtimers.aspx

    /thread.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by killtrick View Post
    --------READ---------



    ignore EVERYONE telling you to open with VT. try this.

    Opening Rotation: SW:P>Shadowfiend>MF x 1.2 times>Arcangel>MB>VT>DV:P...... then just continue with a normal rotation.

    u DONT need to be a lil over the hitcap. u can actually be a lil bit under it. i'm at 15.96% hit chance, and i RARELY miss.

    if u have any questions. you can hit me up on "killtrick" on the Horde US illidan server.

    also, heres a fun fact. MAKE sure your using a Volcanic Potion before u start the opening rotation.

    P.S. i HIGHLY reccommend getting the ShadowTimers addon.

    http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-a...dowtimers.aspx

    /thread.
    Shadow timers good the opener u sed not good.....

  11. #11
    Do whatever opener works for you. Whether you cast SW: P or VT first is not going to affect your DPS over a 5-8 minute fight.

    You should not be running low on mana to need to cast SW: D for Masochism when the boss is >25% (unless you're chain pulling in a random). If you're using Archangel on CD or close to it (setting up timing for maximum MB casts) and using SF on CD, there's no reason for it to be an issue. The reason it may be an issue is that you said you're raiding in healing gear.

    Since you didn't link your gear, here's a bit of a shopping list of BoE's and valor/justice items you can get with little effort to build a shadow set. Your priority (esp. if you have mana issues) is to get 2pc t12.

    Helm: Je'Tze's Sparkling Tiara if you have the gold, but Helm of Eldritch Authority is slightly better if you can do a quick V/T kill in Bastion. T11 or 12 helm, as well as the random enchant ryolith helm, are better, but those are harder to farm and rely on luck, so it'd be difficult to get for an alt.
    Neck: Firemind Pendant is pretty good, and you probably have it for your heal set.
    Shoulders: Jan'alai's Spaulders are the best you can get without farming a raid for some shoulders, but t11 or t12 shadow shoulders would be good if you can get them.
    Back: Rippling Flamewrath Drape can be bought with Avengers of Hyjal rep easily.
    Chest: Vestments of the Cleansing Flame (t12 shadow)
    Wrists: Firesoul Wristguards can be bought with either valor or gold on the AH, and you may have them already in your heal set.
    Hands: Gloves of the Cleaning Flame (t12 shadow)
    Waist: Embereye Belt from Avengers of Hyjal rep is best for reg, and you probably already have it if you've raided Firelands even a bit on your priest.
    Legs: Leggings of the Cleaning Flame (t12 shadow) have sucky stats and may dink you on haste, but the Int is wonderful. If you're absurdly close to 30% haste and this is holding you back, you might want to drop the gold for Breeches of Mended Nightmares to get it, but you'd have to sim to see if it's worth it.
    Boots: Endless Dreamwalkers if you have the gold/mats, or Desert Walker Sandals from Ramkahen if you don't.
    Rings: Crystalline Brimstone Ring can be bought with Valor, and Twined Band of Flowers can be bought with Justice. Any of the Int rings from the Zul randoms can work as well if you're spending points on other items.

    Trinkets have much wider options, but they vary on what of the above gear you can get and what rep/dailies you've done.
    Got Gold? Buy Darkmoon Card: Volcano. It's easily the best trinket you can get without raiding Firelands.
    Need hit? Get Fiery Quintessence from AoH rep if you're Revered or Stump of Time if you have the spare Tol Barad currency. (These are only if you need a lot of hit; being less than 1% below hit cap is fine.)
    Got to 30% haste and fine with your hit level? Get the Moonwell Chalice from Molten Front dailies. You'll have to do the Filling the Moonwell quest to be able to buy it.
    Raiding Bastion of Twilight? Get Theralion's Mirror (or the Heroic version if possible).
    Raiding Firelands? Get Necromantic Focus if possible, though this is the hardest of the bunch to get.

    When you get your gear, enchant and gem properly. Those all add up, and messing that up can mean a 2-3 k difference if you really don't bother. Haste vs. Mastery enchants will depend on what your haste level is.
    Last edited by Zuziza; 2011-10-08 at 10:02 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Purpleisbetter View Post
    Power Torrent, Volcano and Theralion proc'ed, dots just refreshed. Everyone dies. Just a tank and a boss with around 200k hp. Everyone in vt yells "omg we failed omg omg" and you "don't worry amigos, my dots are steamrolling!". Boss dies while you'd say "Enjoy your loots" with a lot of purple awesomness spilling thru your voice. Just happend yesterday.

    Seriously, i thought i'd reroll warlock for 4.2, but that was the sign that i'm purple inside and i can't reroll. never.

  12. #12
    http://shadowpriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=30303

    Same guide from Kilee for 4.2 but on that site you will find almost everything you'd want to know about playing shadow.

    Shadow timers good the opener u sed not good.....
    Actually the opener he stated gives BY FAR the highest burst opener. The problem is that it's highly subject to RNG. If you don't get a shadow orb in your 1.2x Mind Flays then it goes to shit.

  13. #13
    Need an armory link and parses if you have them. You're doing alright. Use Shadowfiend on CD, and Archangel. Also, you need to be using MB on CD, regardless of orbs. Get an addon to track ES, and refresh your DOTs if it's about to drop off and you can't get ES back up before you would normally refresh. I use Need to Know to track VT, DP and ES. If you end up refreshing a DOT without ES up, refresh it again as soon as you get it back. Also, learn the fights, and try to plan accordingly. If you need to move soon, you might want to refresh VT early so it won't drop off during the run. It also helps to set up a macro for your Shadowfiend, to make sure he uses his Shadowcrawl ability on CD. If left to his own devices, he'll wait a second or two to use it, and that costs you some DPS. Hit cap is a personal preference, but below is better than over. I've gone as low as 16.5% without any misses. Lower, and you'll begin to see them, but you can still see DPS gains if you react quickly and re-cast the missed spell. I personally run as close to the cap as I can without going over. Also, if you have any intellect procs, you should be refreshing VT and DP when those are up to benefit from the added int, and refreshing them right before they expire to prolong the benefit. You'll want to get an addon to help you track those, too. Need to Know can do that for you as well. Speaking of int procs, your Shadowfiend gains AP from your int, so using him while those are up is also a good idea. I wouldn't wait for them to proc, though. Realistically speaking, the unless you're lying to us, the biggest thing that you're doing wrong is delaying MB. I know that gained me quite a bit of DPS over the course of a fight when I figured out it was a bad idea. It becomes even more of an issue with the T-12 4-piece.

  14. #14
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...tarchos/simple

    Thats my armory, toggle advanced on if you want.

    Some of my parses are so crappy and most are for healing i'm actually embarrassed to post them. I'm not sure which parse and which boss fight they had me go shadow or if we had healing issues back to disc....

    But yah, thanks for the help, on the dummy i haven't been using pots on opener since i'm poor as hell (i RaF'd 2 friends recently and spent most my gold on basically all their flying needs and other needs. Probably 12K-15K into both of them and I haven't had time to farm since).

    I'll be trying out the next opener. And yes we have a timer, i have a special macro'd VT that just pots and VT's.

    I'll be checking out the addons, and I did mess around with quartz a bit, shouldn't say failed to figure it out, i just couldn't get it to how I would have liked it.

  15. #15
    Helm- Need Helm Enchant, Regem with +40 Intellect.

    Necklace- Open up Molten Front Dailies, and get the Necklace

    Shoulders- Need Shoulder Enchant

    Cloak- Need Enchant(Also level tailoring as the enchant from tailoring is really beneficial)

    Chest- Put Reckless gem in Yellow, Purified in Blue

    Bracer- Need "Mighty Intellect" or +50 Haste

    Legs- Remove Reckless Gem, put Brilliant Gem in its place

    Boots- If you need the minor run increase, get the one with Mastery and Run Increase(Lavawalker) Fix your reforge to not reforge out of Haste.

    Trinket- If you have the gold, get DMV Volcano to replace Heart of Ignacious.

    Wand- Get the other VP Wand with Hit and Haste

    I would reglyph to Glyph of Shadow Word: Death in place of Dispersion

    14k dps on a training dummy without Food/Flask/Raid Buffs is good with your the gear you have.

    Also for future gear concerns, get everything you can which has Haste on it.
    Last edited by Jagstang; 2011-10-08 at 02:20 PM.

  16. #16
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...tarchos/simple

    Thats my armory, toggle advanced on if you want.

    Some of my parses are so crappy and most are for healing i'm actually embarrassed to post them. I'm not sure which parse and which boss fight they had me go shadow or if we had healing issues back to disc....

    But yah, thanks for the help, on the dummy i haven't been using pots on opener since i'm poor as hell (i RaF'd 2 friends recently and spent most my gold on basically all their flying needs and other needs. Probably 12K-15K into both of them and I haven't had time to farm since).

    I'll be trying out the next opener. And yes we have a timer, i have a special macro'd VT that just pots and VT's.

    I'll be checking out the addons, and I did mess around with quartz a bit, shouldn't say failed to figure it out, i just couldn't get it to how I would have liked it.

    EDIT:

    Sorry bout this second re-post, I have no clue what happened, google chrome crashed, I re-opened...and this posted again.

    ---------- Post added 2011-10-08 at 10:05 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jagstang View Post
    Helm- Need Helm Enchant, Regem with +40 Intellect.

    Necklace- Open up Molten Front Dailies, and get the Necklace

    Shoulders- Need Shoulder Enchant

    Cloak- Need Enchant(Also level tailoring as the enchant from tailoring is really beneficial)

    Chest- Put Reckless gem in Yellow, Purified in Blue

    Bracer- Need "Mighty Intellect" or +50 Haste

    Legs- Remove Reckless Gem, put Brilliant Gem in its place

    Boots- If you need the minor run increase, get the one with Mastery and Run Increase(Lavawalker) Fix your reforge to not reforge out of Haste.

    Trinket- If you have the gold, get DMV Volcano to replace Heart of Ignacious.

    Wand- Get the other VP Wand with Hit and Haste

    I would reglyph to Glyph of Shadow Word: Death in place of Dispersion

    14k dps on a training dummy without Food/Flask/Raid Buffs is good with your the gear you have.

    Also for future gear concerns, get everything you can which has Haste on it.
    HELM: Wrong helm on, I got the one off magmaw with the enchant and never noticed i forgot to get it for the tier one.
    Shoulder: Farming Therazane rep :/ I was stupid and haven't finished it yet
    Leveling Tailoring: Farming gold to power level this
    DMV: Farming gold to buy this

    Thanks for your comments, I'll get right on fixing that

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by stickyjam View Post
    Shadow timers good the opener u sed not good.....
    please explain how my opener is not good? bc with my opener im burtsting up to 30k just in 10mans. and im only 376 iLVL equipped.
    so if u have a better opener i would like to know it so i can test it out. ty.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by killtrick View Post
    please explain how my opener is not good? bc with my opener im burtsting up to 30k just in 10mans. and im only 376 iLVL equipped.
    so if u have a better opener i would like to know it so i can test it out. ty.
    Just tell me what you lose if you cast VT with countdown and continue your personal opening of your choice as soon as the fight starts. (which in this case is sw: p sfiend mf 1.2 times arch mb vt dp ...)

    you don't lose anything, you gain damage. so, even if you are so strict on your opening that you would never change anything and you are fanatical about it, one spell addition before fight increases your initial damage. that is what is wrong with your opening.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaise View Post
    Just tell me what you lose if you cast VT with countdown and continue your personal opening of your choice as soon as the fight starts. (which in this case is sw: p sfiend mf 1.2 times arch mb vt dp ...)

    you don't lose anything, you gain damage. so, even if you are so strict on your opening that you would never change anything and you are fanatical about it, one spell addition before fight increases your initial damage. that is what is wrong with your opening.
    bc u have no burst whatsoever. i tried the rotation where u start off with opening with VT. and i "slowly" built my dps up. now tell me why would i do that, when i can open up with my max dps. getting me to do as much damage as possible. then once the burst is done. i'll ONLY go down a couple 1000 dps on the charts.

    start up slow. or start up huge. thats your decision.

    plus with my opening rotation. your bound to get Empowered Shadows. which is a huge dps gain. or loss in your case. that is why my opener is better.

  20. #20
    bc u have no burst whatsoever. i tried the rotation where u start off with opening with VT. and i "slowly" built my dps up. now tell me why would i do that, when i can open up with my max dps
    The only thing that "opening up with your max dps" gets you is a burst of needless epeen. Your DPS in the first few seconds (on a boss mob, on adds or trash it may be different) is meaningless. No one cares. Your contribution over the whole fight is what matters - and you will get a much more consistent performance by opening with your DOTs, even if they aren't benefiting from empowered shadow, than you will from fishing for an orb, and potentially getting bad RNG and waiting too long to put up your first set of DOTs. You lose nothing, and gain consistent performance, if you just put up dots before an orb procs.

    In short, if you want to be the guy who - every once in awhile - jumps high on the meters, but usually ends up sitting around the middle, fish for orbs. If you want to be the guy who everyone comes to and says "why is your DPS ALWAYS tops?" open with a more dependable rotation.
    Last edited by Felade; 2011-10-08 at 07:47 PM.

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