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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by killtrick View Post
    --------READ---------



    ignore EVERYONE telling you to open with VT. try this.

    Opening Rotation: SW:P>Shadowfiend>MF x 1.2 times>Arcangel>MB>VT>DV:P...... then just continue with a normal rotation.

    u DONT need to be a lil over the hitcap. u can actually be a lil bit under it. i'm at 15.96% hit chance, and i RARELY miss.

    if u have any questions. you can hit me up on "killtrick" on the Horde US illidan server.

    also, heres a fun fact. MAKE sure your using a Volcanic Potion before u start the opening rotation.

    P.S. i HIGHLY reccommend getting the ShadowTimers addon.

    /thread.
    The advice in this post is so poor I had to post. First, the opener is bad for a few reasons.
    1. You use SF before most of your procs have gone up, a definite DPS loss
    2. If you are going to MF until 5 stacks of DE, then you only need to do it 1.1 times, not 1.2
    3. You apply dots right after using DA. Again, a definite DPS loss.

    Secondly, running under the hit cap may be a theoretical DPS gain based on simulations, but in practice it is rarely a DPS gain. The human element makes it very difficult to immediately recognize when something has missed and needs to be quickly reapplied.

    The idea that opening burst DPS somehow makes this an ideal opener is not well thought out. DPS against bosses is about total DPS over the course of a 4-8 minute fight, and using any of killtrick's advice will definitely make that number lower.
    Last edited by pharao1005; 2011-10-08 at 07:54 PM.

  2. #22
    shadow is all about those extra dot ticks. you'll get new gear and not see much of an improvement then you get that next dot from the extra haste you get and all of a sudden your dps jumps a LOT

    and when you check it on dummies, don't compare it to anything but your OWN dps from other attempts. you can go from 13k to 17k with raid buffs as shadow, no other class gains as much from all those buffs.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    The only thing that "opening up with your max dps" gets you is a burst of needless epeen. Your DPS in the first few seconds (on a boss mob, on adds or trash it may be different) is meaningless. No one cares. Your contribution over the whole fight is what matters - and you will get a much more consistent performance by opening with your DOTs, even if they aren't benefiting from empowered shadow, than you will from fishing for an orb, and potentially getting bad RNG and waiting too long to put up your first set of DOTs. You lose nothing, and gain consistent performance, if you just put up dots before an orb procs.

    In short, if you want to be the guy who - every once in awhile - jumps high on the meters, but usually ends up sitting around the middle, fish for orbs. If you want to be the guy who everyone comes to and says "why is your DPS ALWAYS tops?" open with a more dependable rotation.
    I always go for consistent dps over burst. Because I have a friend who bursts 50K (even higher on some toons, he has like 12 85s) at the beginning, and then does 10K rest of the fight, and I see so many things wrong with that I can't even begin.

    And to "dps always top" thats where I am on my hunter and thats where I like to be. I'm usually at the bottom or middle first couple minutes of the fight but always pull out at the top in my current group. Which is what I think matters.

    I also will always cap hit, because of the human element. no matter what someone tells me. Usually i'm aroud .1% over

    So the opener with more dependable dps is where I will be going.

    Thanks guys for all your help!

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by pharao1005 View Post
    The advice in this post is so poor I had to post. First, the opener is bad for a few reasons.
    1. You use SF before most of your procs have gone up, a definite DPS loss

    Secondly, running under the hit cap may be a theoretical DPS gain based on simulations, but in practice it is rarely a DPS gain. The human element makes it very difficult to immediately recognize when something has missed and needs to be quickly reapplied.
    From what I've read, I think SF's damage updates dynamically so...

    It is always a DPS gain if you don't miss a spell. There is only one spell which you need to react fast on and that is VT. All other spells that miss don't require any reaction. Most of the time you actually don't miss any VT during a fight due to the small amount of VT casts you do during a fight and the chance of missing being like 1-2%.


    Quote Originally Posted by fizzbob View Post
    shadow is all about those extra dot ticks. you'll get new gear and not see much of an improvement then you get that next dot from the extra haste you get and all of a sudden your dps jumps a LOT

    and when you check it on dummies, don't compare it to anything but your OWN dps from other attempts. you can go from 13k to 17k with raid buffs as shadow, no other class gains as much from all those buffs.
    The most annoying thing I've seen is that many people think that the reason to go for haste plataeus is because your VT gets more ticks. That is not the thing that increases your DPS though and it annoys me that people believe that. The reason your DPS increases at those thresholds is because VT's duration is at its maximum, allowing you to cast more of other spells. With the way we refresh DoTs and the way haste works, having an extra tick means nothing. It is the duration of the spell that means something.
    Last edited by Ariadne; 2011-10-08 at 11:31 PM.

  5. #25
    bc u have no burst whatsoever. i tried the rotation where u start off with opening with VT. and i "slowly" built my dps up. now tell me why would i do that, when i can open up with my max dps. getting me to do as much damage as possible. then once the burst is done. i'll ONLY go down a couple 1000 dps on the charts.

    start up slow. or start up huge. thats your decision.

    plus with my opening rotation. your bound to get Empowered Shadows. which is a huge dps gain. or loss in your case. that is why my opener is better.
    Burst is good. That's why your opener sucks, it has no burst whatsoever, it's just plain bad. And fyi, 30k initial burst in a raid is horrible for an SP with avg iLvl 376 (didnt bother to armory you, but that's what you said). Also, applying Dots after Archangel is bad since you don't have the 10% extra dmg from Evangelism. VT > SW:P > DP > MB > SF > MF until MB comes of CD again (in which case u obviously MB) > VT and DP > Archangel, beats your opener hard when it comes to burst, and is less RNG dependant. But yeah, your loss if you want to do it your way.

    It is always a DPS gain if you don't miss a spell. There is only one spell which you need to react fast on and that is VT. All other spells that miss don't require any reaction. Most of the time you actually don't miss any VT during a fight due to the small amount of VT casts you do during a fight and the chance of missing being like 1-2%.
    Let me introduce you to my little big friend, his name is Mind Blast, and the only reason why we would ever want to actually get hit capped
    They're (short for They are) describes a group of people. "They're/They are a nice bunch of guys." Their indicates that something belongs/is related to a group of people. "Their car was all out of fuel." There refers to a location. "Let's set up camp over there." There is also no such thing as "could/should OF". The correct way is: Could/should'VE, or could/should HAVE.
    Holyfury armory

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ThrashMetalFtw View Post
    Burst is good. That's why your opener sucks, it has no burst whatsoever, it's just plain bad. And fyi, 30k initial burst in a raid is horrible for an SP with avg iLvl 376 (didnt bother to armory you, but that's what you said). Also, applying Dots after Archangel is bad since you don't have the 10% extra dmg from Evangelism. VT > SW:P > DP > MB > SF > MF until MB comes of CD again (in which case u obviously MB) > VT and DP > Archangel, beats your opener hard when it comes to burst, and is less RNG dependant. But yeah, your loss if you want to do it your way.

    Let me introduce you to my little big friend, his name is Mind Blast, and the only reason why we would ever want to actually get hit capped
    Yes, missing a Mind Blast is a DPS loss. But you don't need to react to it. So the human factor does nothing there. So if it is a theoretical DPS gain to not hit cap, it will be practical DPS gain too. I quoted a post there and my post was an answer to that quote.

  7. #27
    The biggest deal is Buffs. If you have a Demo lock, or Ele shaman, and a mage, and flasks you will be doing very good dps eitherway. We scale with Intellect pretty insanely. i do only about 18k vs dummies and 25k+ in raids.

    I wouldn't worry too much about your "opener" To me it makes little difference what you do first, the first 10 seconds of the fight isnt going to make or break your dps if the fight goes for 4+ minutes. It is important to get empowered shadow but its way more important to actually do the damage as often and as much as possible. ie.

    Stop waiting for an orb and MB on CD everytime.
    When you cast Archangel use Fiend as well (after your dots are up)

    Orbs will proc enough so once empowered shadow is up it'll almost never fall off, so those few seconds at the start when it isnt up, isnt that important. SW:P gets automatically updated with MF and you'll most likely cast VT after your second MB if you dont wait for orbs anyway.

    But thing to remember is we are a dot class, our damage ramps up, getting everything up gives you higher chance to get things proccing, which is why it is good to have proc abilities (Orbs, Lightweave, Volcanic darkmoon card, Powertorrent etc.) because our damage hits very often. I once had almost everything proc after 1 SW:P on Rhyo and had about 150k mana haha.
    Last edited by Sikizim; 2011-10-09 at 01:18 AM.

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