Thread: Addons?

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  1. #241
    Pit Lord Kaelwryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkenaw View Post
    Same here, and also Kaelwryn
    O_O whhaaa? No, no. *covers location with hands* LOL. Nice to see more texans here! :3

    Anyway, there are some UIs out there that are hugely cluttered. There are also some UI makers that make it VERY clean. WoW let's you essentially change everything to your liking via addons. It was built around the usage of addons.

    Some people have had a bad experience with addons and it left a bad taste in their mouth. Idiots abusing Gearscore and other such addons to "segregate" the wow population into casuals, elites, etc. With how GW2 is being present we don't need, and obviously quite a few don't want, this to happen. So they feel that the easiest way of keeping this from happening is to keep such addons (even though they can be immensely powerful tools) from GW2. Will it stop people from lumping everyone into groups? Probably not.

    Truthfully it seems to me that ANet thinks that all you to play a game is your eyeballs, fingers and ability to take in the information on your screen and adjust accordingly. You shouldn't need an addon to tell you anything.

    Are there going to be addons in GW2? Probably. Why? Because despite ANet's no support of addons in the first one, people still decided to make addons. They were, mostly, simple UI modifications. Made the sins look shinier or sleeker. Personally I think that this is going to be the kind of addon we see for GW2, and really one of the few. I think this because even though GW2 is going to see people from all kinds of mmos and games, I feel the vast majority will be GW1 players and it seemed to me a lot of them never felt the need for any fancy addon like recount. I also think ANet did a good job of making a clean, simple but beautiful UI.

    Even if addons like DBM or Recount or whatever do make an appearance in GW2 I doubt I'll have them. It just seems like it'll be a lot more fun to reply on my own reflexes and judgements (even if they pretty shitty) than staring at addons to see when is the next Meteor Storm coming so I can get ready to move five steps over and then stop again and faceroll my keyboard.
    Last edited by Kaelwryn; 2011-10-23 at 03:41 PM. Reason: spelling

  2. #242
    I dont like addons, they ruin the game and make bad players good through extended means.
    If you cant learn to play the AH you simply can get an addon. its silly and lazy.
    GW2 is definately a skill based game so people should learn to play it properly.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_ View Post
    The "clutter" present in the screenshot is very much overdone. Most people have elements of UI around, rather then in the center. This is no different in GW1, where you have a lot of extremely important elements of UI easily accessible. You complaint is about "this guys taste of UI doesn't match mine".

    In GW1, I knew of several players who played with huge compass near center of the screen, because for top end play, compass was far more important then battlefield view.

    This need isn't going away in GW2. You will still need big party frames, skills frame, skill usage frames, compass, etc.




    You may wish to scroll up and read what original disagreement was about before putting your foot in your mouth next time.
    First off, the minimap will not be the same as GW1, and players won't play the minimap, because it doesn't show enemies like GW1

    To follow up, I could get rid of party frames, since we have skulls that appear on the minimap and on the screen which direct you to fallen allies. I also cannot heal them with targeted heals, so I don't ever need to click the party frames. Same can be said about skill frames, if keybound, I could completely take them off the screen, if I took time to memorize them for every weapon.

  4. #244
    Scarab Lord Blznsmri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelwryn View Post
    O_O whhaaa? No, no. *covers location with hands* LOL. Nice to see more texans here! :3
    That's what, four (including myself) people that live in San Antonio?
    Quote Originally Posted by SW:TOR
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  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_ View Post
    The "clutter" present in the screenshot is very much overdone. Most people have elements of UI around, rather then in the center. This is no different in GW1, where you have a lot of extremely important elements of UI easily accessible. You complaint is about "this guys taste of UI doesn't match mine".

    In GW1, I knew of several players who played with huge compass near center of the screen, because for top end play, compass was far more important then battlefield view.

    This need isn't going away in GW2. You will still need big party frames, skills frame, skill usage frames, compass, etc.
    The "clutter" I was talking about had little to nothing to do with that screenshot. Regardless of how you organize it, there's certain information you just can't get from WoW without certain layers of addons, while GW2 is designed for you to get any important information through the minimal UI or the game world. In GW2 party frames will be unimportant, possibly even useless, since there is no party-targeted skills; the most they would tell you is whether it might be a good idea to switch to a different weapon set to use support skills, and possibly how far away they are like in GW1, and as such you don't need big party frames. The fact remains, the overabundant need of addons in WoW comes from a need of more information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  6. #246
    The Lightbringer Glytch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkenaw View Post
    Same here, and also Kaelwryn
    lets all go hang out and play guild wars and stuff!

    ---------- Post added 2011-10-23 at 11:14 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_ View Post
    You may wish to scroll up and read what original disagreement was about before putting your foot in your mouth next time.
    attacking a strawman argument with a strawman argument isnt a very good way to get your point accross
    Last edited by Glytch; 2011-10-23 at 05:15 PM.
    The Original Ganksta

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  7. #247
    Scarab Lord Blznsmri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glytch View Post
    lets all go hang out and play guild wars and stuff!
    /agree, keep it on the north east side of town though... I don't have a car...
    Quote Originally Posted by SW:TOR
    Jokerseven - Kinetic Combat Shadow - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Ce'lia - Combat Sentinel - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Sentinel PVE Basics for the two Specs that matter

  8. #248
    Pit Lord Kaelwryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glytch View Post
    lets all go hang out and play guild wars and stuff!
    Y'all would never see me though. :< Hiss, socializing it burns meee. And the sun light.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    The "clutter" I was talking about had little to nothing to do with that screenshot. Regardless of how you organize it, there's certain information you just can't get from WoW without certain layers of addons, while GW2 is designed for you to get any important information through the minimal UI or the game world. In GW2 party frames will be unimportant, possibly even useless, since there is no party-targeted skills; the most they would tell you is whether it might be a good idea to switch to a different weapon set to use support skills, and possibly how far away they are like in GW1, and as such you don't need big party frames. The fact remains, the overabundant need of addons in WoW comes from a need of more information.
    The need for information is obviously diminished when you're working with 4 people at most instead of 24, you lack healer role and friendly targeting function completely, and boss encounters are far simpler when it comes to player mechanics (as far as we know).

    This doesn't change the fact that arenanet themselves seem to admit: information is important, and needs to be displayed prominently. Source: Default GW2 UI with it's uselessly huge (imho) health bubble, large quest UI overlay, large skill bar, large party windows. I'm very interested in seeing how larger scale PvP will be played, as in GW1 you were forced to memorize a lot of things which felt fine to me back then before I played WoW. But when I came back to GW1 a few weeks ago after WoW, it stroke me as how silly it was that I didn't even have a basic debuff timer so I could focus on the actual battlefield instead of memorizing who has what buffs/debuffs and for how long as a higher priority then what actually occurred on the battlefield. This lack of information supply is severely detrimental to my ability to play the game, as I am not limited by my skill of playing the game, but by the information crunch that results from crippled (for me) UI bottleneck.

    It's also worth noting that GW1 had a TERRIBLE UI for over 8 people in a group at a time even when you were used to it, as was the interface for 8 man groups with large amounts of pets. The first attempt to make 12 man battleground in factions was scuttled in part by UI's inability to cope with high amount of players, and they had to rework the entire thing to make entering said battleground as three groups of four players who could only see their own party on UI, severely limiting teamplay.

    It's one of those great examples of how "simple" UI cripples the game by its lack of functionality and/or information throughput.


    Finally, I really don't want to bring this up in the way it's going to look, but ability to "crunch" through a sea of information and use only pieces that you actually need is a skill - one that you need in real life even more then in games. So what may look like "horrible clutter" to someone incapable of effective dissemination of information in real time is an efficient UI to someone capable of this. At the same time a "simple" UI will have that person not being able to use his abilities to their full extent because he/she is limited by UI rather then their skill.

    This is essentially a comparison akin to one between a basic crop sprayer plane and a high speed jet fighter. Crop sprayer is fine with basic controls and no real interface for pilot other then a few analogue meters for most important functions. Modern fighter needs multi-function displays and DARPA spent a huge amount of effort to convince Germans to let them study the on-visor HUD UI of Mig-29 (reverse engineered version of which is now touted as one of the biggest improvements on F-35).

    In short: UI matters. UI needs are different for different people, and different types and levels of play. WoW's designers understood this, and allowed a major level of customization through add-ons, so that players would not feel that UI is the limiting factor. If arenanet chooses the same no-addon policy for UI, we will likely experience same information and accessibility bottleneck as in GW1, and people fighting against UI rather then against enemies that we saw in GW1. One that we did not see in WoW.

    It's sadly going to severely reduce longevity and attractiveness of GW2 for people like me as well, and we're not that small of a minority considering how even basic ability to function in modern workplace requires ability to efficiently take information you need from the clutter of useless information.
    Last edited by Lucky_; 2011-10-23 at 06:19 PM.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_ View Post
    The need for information is obviously diminished when you're working with 4 people at most instead of 24, you lack healer role and friendly targeting function completely, and boss encounters are far simpler when it comes to player mechanics (as far as we know).

    This doesn't change the fact that arenanet themselves seem to admit: information is important, and needs to be displayed prominently. Source: Default GW2 UI with it's uselessly huge (imho) health bubble, large quest UI overlay, large skill bar, large party windows. I'm very interested in seeing how larger scale PvP will be played, as in GW1 you were forced to memorize a lot of things which felt fine to me back then before I played WoW. But when I came back to GW1 a few weeks ago after WoW, it stroke me as how silly it was that I didn't even have a basic debuff timer so I could focus on the actual battlefield instead of memorizing who has what buffs/debuffs and for how long as a higher priority then what actually occurred on the battlefield. This lack of information supply is severely detrimental to my ability to play the game, as I am not limited by my skill of playing the game, but by the information crunch that results from crippled (for me) UI bottleneck.

    It's also worth noting that GW1 had a TERRIBLE UI for over 8 people in a group at a time even when you were used to it, as was the interface for 8 man groups with large amounts of pets. The first attempt to make 12 man battleground in factions was scuttled in part by UI's inability to cope with high amount of players, and they had to rework the entire thing to make entering said battleground as three groups of four players who could only see their own party on UI, severely limiting teamplay.

    It's one of those great examples of how "simple" UI cripples the game by its lack of functionality and/or information throughput.


    Finally, I really don't want to bring this up in the way it's going to look, but ability to "crunch" through a sea of information and use only pieces that you actually need is a skill - one that you need in real life even more then in games. So what may look like "horrible clutter" to someone incapable of effective dissemination of information in real time is an efficient UI to someone capable of this. At the same time a "simple" UI will have that person not being able to use his abilities to their full extent because he/she is limited by UI rather then their skill.

    This is essentially a comparison akin to one between a basic crop sprayer plane and a high speed jet fighter. Crop sprayer is fine with basic controls and no real interface for pilot other then a few analogue meters for most important functions. Modern fighter needs multi-function displays and DARPA spent a huge amount of effort to convince Germans to let them study the on-visor HUD UI of Mig-29 (reverse engineered version of which is now touted as one of the biggest improvements on F-35).

    In short: UI matters. UI needs are different for different people, and different types and levels of play. WoW's designers understood this, and allowed a major level of customization through add-ons, so that players would not feel that UI is the limiting factor. If arenanet chooses the same no-addon policy for UI, we will likely experience same information and accessibility bottleneck as in GW1, and people fighting against UI rather then against enemies that we saw in GW1. One that we did not see in WoW.

    It's sadly going to severely reduce longevity and attractiveness of GW2 for people like me as well, and we're not that small of a minority considering how even basic ability to function in modern workplace requires ability to efficiently take information you need from the clutter of useless information.
    Are we looking at the same UI? The party frames are tiny bars, the dynamic event tracker is comparable to the size of the minimap, depends on the event though, the health bubble is the largest component second to the minimap on the screen, because you have to worry about yourself, so they want it to stand out more, and the skill bars is pretty much the perfect size. Also, there is no clutter like gryphons around your skill bar, and the menu bar at the top left if a lot smaller than WoW.

    Also keep in mind, you can scale everything on the UI up or down to suit yourself, and everything will be movable as well.

  11. #251
    First of all, yes, one man's trash is other man's treasure. We're looking at the very same UI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miggetmagic View Post
    Also, there is no clutter like gryphons around your skill bar, and the menu bar at the top left if a lot smaller than WoW.
    I want to emphasize this part. This is why UI add-ons are brilliant. I didn't even remember that this existed in WoW - because I haven't used default WoW UI in years. My UI of choice included xperl for unit frames with fat health bars positioned in a way I like (my hp bar against targeted enemy health bar, etc). There were no dragons, no extra clutter, extremely large amount of information, and all of it positioned in a way that I find useful. For example, the "elite" enemy simply has a small color-coded "elite" text attached to his name part of UI.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by papajohn4 View Post
    Are you really believe that DBM is optional in order to raid in wow?
    Yea, I raided from vanilla up to Wrath without DBM. MC, AQ, TK, BT, Sunwell, etc.

    Currently raiding in Rift sans addons as well.

    Haven't ever happened to you to been asked by a guild to have certain addons in order to join raids?
    Nope.

    I was asked if I used DBM in a 10m (H) guild I joined for Wrath. Said no, raided fine. Addons I used were DPS meter and UI overhaul mods. WOW chat interface was/is the worse I ever seen.

    Also have in mind that Blizzard admitt it that they design raids having in mind that people use addons like DBM and so they must make it more complicated or else may be a joke...admit it or not, addons have affected a lot the games and even the developers who many times make changes having in mind that you are using certain addons.
    I am aware. Though I do not think this is detrimental. The opposite in fact, I think it has raised the sophistication of encounters.

    Certainly, something like DBM would make encounters easier. It is still optional to the player to use them. Devs are aware a % of players use these type of addons, but there is no way any particular addon sees 100% use across the board. Devs couldn't realistically create encounters that depend 100% on a player having a certain addon. And to date, I haven't seen any encounter that was impossible sans DBM- for example.

    So something like DBM is up to the player. Just like those rolling skill thing addons- I don't know what they are called.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2011-10-25 at 05:02 AM.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    If ArenaNet adds in the functionality to the UI that most people use/want (ie customization of the appearance and ability to track items across all characters), the use of addons shouldn't be needed. Otherwise, UI capable addons should be allowed but nothing combat oriented. While such tools as recount are useful when used properly, I don't want to see the GW2 community turn into the trolls and epeen wavers that permeate WoW through misuse of such tools.
    The problem is that we can be sure that those sort of features wont be done by Anet, at least not for release, so by allowing us, the players, to do them at release will be much appreciated.


  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitan View Post
    The problem is that we can be sure that those sort of features wont be done by Anet, at least not for release, so by allowing us, the players, to do them at release will be much appreciated.
    Which is why I said, if such features exist upon release, there will be little need for addons, otherwise that is the only type of addon (ie purely customization, nothing that affects gameplay) that should be viable

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  15. #255
    GW1 UI is nice....not extremely pretty or anything but im not bothered by it at all. The UI was also pretty customizable wihtout using mods and im sure it will be the same in GW2, considering one of their main points is customization. Only mods i ever used in wow was ones that changed my skill bars, made them smaller and fit more abilities, and since theres no need for that in GW2 i really dont see much need for addons.

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