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  1. #1
    Grunt Kambei's Avatar
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    Looking for Theorycrafters

    Theorycrafting is something that has become a staple of MMO game play and I believe good theorycrafting greatly helps the player base improve.

    To that end, we're looking for a few experienced theorycrafters to help develop our class knowledge for SWTOR.

    Obviously, there is nothing going on right now as we don't have anything concrete that we can openly discuss with the NDA and that theorycrafting really comes into play with end game content.

    That being said, it would be nice to find others that are interested in this aspect of the game so we can look ahead to SWTOR raiding.

  2. #2
    The Patient Daniboy's Avatar
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    I know there is a site out there that have allready done theorycrafting for SWTOR, not sure if I can post it on this site tho, since I think I remember there are some leaks on that site. So google is your friend if you wanna look it up

  3. #3
    I really hope theorycrafting doesn't turn into a huge deal for SWTOR... that's part of what killed WoW for me: Must.... Get... Bigger.... NUMBERS!!!!! Oh, that's cool... NUMBERS!!!!

  4. #4
    Grunt Kambei's Avatar
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    Thanks for the post on existing sites, but not wanting to get involved with those that have already violated the NDA.

    I don't believe bigger numbers are the be all, end all of theorycrafting.

    Take tanking in WoW in TBC. If you wanted to learn to tank, having access to stat information was extremely helpful. If you didn't know what the big deal was about Defense Cap, you would probably die a quick death. Theorycrafting showed that you needed 540 defense rating to not be crushed by a boss. Really helpful information

  5. #5
    The Patient Gavan's Avatar
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    DPS meters lead to people competing over DPS rather than focusing on killing the boss.
    People focusing on DPS forces players into theorycrafting and min/maxing.
    Min/maxing causes developers to overtune content so that it remains challenging for the vocal minority that min/maxes.
    Overtuned content causes players to be frustrated and /cancel.

    A path to the darkside this is.
    Once we gathered friends together, drank a ton of Mountain Dew and beer, and role played with paper, pencils, and books.
    Now I log onto MMOs with the same people and we only talk about how hard we PWNed that: Noob, boss, etc.
    I hate modern gaming....

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavan View Post
    DPS meters lead to people competing over DPS rather than focusing on killing the boss.
    People focusing on DPS forces players into theorycrafting and min/maxing.
    Min/maxing causes developers to overtune content so that it remains challenging for the vocal minority that min/maxes.
    Overtuned content causes players to be frustrated and /cancel.

    A path to the darkside this is.
    People will always try to min/max no matter what you do. You can try to hide as much information from them as possible (à la Final Fantasy 11) but it won't stop people from finding the info in other ways (third party software, game logs, etc.). You can like TheoryCraft and Min/Maxing, or you can hate it, but it's always going to be there, and there's nothing anyone can do to stop it without just making damage completely random and have no relation to stats altogether (lol).

  7. #7
    The Patient Gavan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delia View Post
    People will always try to min/max no matter what you do. You can try to hide as much information from them as possible (à la Final Fantasy 11) but it won't stop people from finding the info in other ways (third party software, game logs, etc.). You can like TheoryCraft and Min/Maxing, or you can hate it, but it's always going to be there, and there's nothing anyone can do to stop it without just making damage completely random and have no relation to stats altogether (lol).
    I agree, I just hope that the situation doesn't turn into EQ/WoW in the respect that theorycrafting has almost destroyed the game. Again, people focusing on min/maxing rather than just being happy that the boss is dead is when we went from playing a game, to playing spreadsheets.
    Once we gathered friends together, drank a ton of Mountain Dew and beer, and role played with paper, pencils, and books.
    Now I log onto MMOs with the same people and we only talk about how hard we PWNed that: Noob, boss, etc.
    I hate modern gaming....

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavan View Post
    I agree, I just hope that the situation doesn't turn into EQ/WoW in the respect that theorycrafting has almost destroyed the game. Again, people focusing on min/maxing rather than just being happy that the boss is dead is when we went from playing a game, to playing spreadsheets.
    Eh, DPS meters is a pretty good performance meter. Why did we wipe on Jin'do? Oh, the Ele Shaman in the group is doing 5k dps, casted more Lava Burst than Lightning Bolt, and hit nothing but the spirit in phase 2. Yeah, I'm happy with the boss being dead, but effeciency leads to a lot less headaches.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavan View Post
    I agree, I just hope that the situation doesn't turn into EQ/WoW in the respect that theorycrafting has almost destroyed the game. Again, people focusing on min/maxing rather than just being happy that the boss is dead is when we went from playing a game, to playing spreadsheets.
    Would you rather have a person in your group with same gear as the rest, but much less dps/hps/tps?
    If you find they lack knowledge, don't you want them to learn something about their class?
    Theorycrafting is useful for other people than min/maxers, too.

  10. #10
    The Patient Gavan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrkew View Post
    Would you rather have a person in your group with same gear as the rest, but much less dps/hps/tps?
    If you find they lack knowledge, don't you want them to learn something about their class?
    Theorycrafting is useful for other people than min/maxers, too.
    No, I'd rather be focusing on killing the boss, rather than nerd raging at someone because they have a "less than idea" enchant and are doing 10% less DPS than the top person in the group. Then watching them get blamed for a wipe, rather than focusing on the mechanics.
    Once we gathered friends together, drank a ton of Mountain Dew and beer, and role played with paper, pencils, and books.
    Now I log onto MMOs with the same people and we only talk about how hard we PWNed that: Noob, boss, etc.
    I hate modern gaming....

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavan View Post
    No, I'd rather be focusing on killing the boss, rather than nerd raging at someone because they have a "less than idea" enchant and are doing 10% less DPS than the top person in the group. Then watching them get blamed for a wipe, rather than focusing on the mechanics.
    That is so not what I meant.
    Example: Your group goes to Firelands. Everyone is around 20k, some people have more, some people have less. A hunter is doing only 10k because he doesn't use the spells he is supposed to use. The groups wipes because of enrage (soft or hard, doesn't matter).
    Without a log, how would you find out who has to get better before you try the boss again?

  12. #12
    The Patient Gavan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrkew View Post
    That is so not what I meant.
    Example: Your group goes to Firelands. Everyone is around 20k, some people have more, some people have less. A hunter is doing only 10k because he doesn't use the spells he is supposed to use. The groups wipes because of enrage (soft or hard, doesn't matter).
    Without a log, how would you find out who has to get better before you try the boss again?
    That's not theorycrafting, that's dealing with an inexperienced player that needs help. While I agree that there does need to be a performance indicator of some type, quantifying it is what's hurting WoW atm. You don't have to quantify and break the equations of something (that you really shouldn't need or care to know anyway) in order to play at the minimum required on a normal mode. An in-game performance meter showing what % each player contributed would be ample without giving away the math and letting the idea of theorycrafting getting out of control, as it has in WoW.
    Once we gathered friends together, drank a ton of Mountain Dew and beer, and role played with paper, pencils, and books.
    Now I log onto MMOs with the same people and we only talk about how hard we PWNed that: Noob, boss, etc.
    I hate modern gaming....

  13. #13
    I like theorycrafting. But not just for numbers, I actually prefer it to simply get the most out of my class that I can.

    To that end, I usually NEVER go with the "cookie cutter" design that almost all theorycrafters suggest, simply because I don't want to be like every other "X-Class" player out there, but I rather enjoy going over theorycrafting and doing some myself, simply to just see where it can take me, performance-wise.

    It's NOT just numbers, it's making yourself the best you can, given the situation provided. I could actually care less about numbers at the end of the day, as long as I am comfortable in the fact that I am doing the best I can with what I've got, and theorycrafting plays a huge part in that.... for me anyways.
    Quote Originally Posted by Komie View Post
    They still say Cata needs a lot of work, and this expansion (edit for reference: MoP) is in the final stages.
    Quoted for... truth? on 11/30/2011.

  14. #14
    Grunt Kambei's Avatar
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    While some people want to make a villain out of theorycrafting, that isn't the point of this thread.

    It's to find others that are interested in having accurate information available to the entire community.

    I agree with Ebbikenezer, in that I often have used specs and gear set ups that didn't line up with some theorycrafters' suggestion. But the hard numbers have always been very helpful.

    If you're a dps, you need to be able to hit the target. So knowing what your hit rating needs to be and why its important, is important.

    I use theorycrafting to help me improve as a player. I don't want to be the guy holding my guild back. I don't think anyone sets out with the goal of being a failure. If used appropriately, theorycrafting can help people improve. Yes, it can be used to ostracize people. But the problem isn't with the tool, its with the people using it.

    I have random people come to me on my server asking for help to get better. Spending a bit of time with them sharing information and seeing them improve is what makes a server better. Most of these people are not in my guild, but its nice to be able to help those that wish to improve.

    Theorycrafting and the information that comes out of it is what helps inexperienced players improve. Please don't blame the tools for the misuse they see had the hand of a few.

  15. #15
    I would sign up for this. Tho, my theorycrafting is pretty restricted to Jedi Knight Sentinel (mainly PvP but also PvE ofcourse). If you would like to talk to me more feel free to PM me on the forums

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavan View Post
    That's not theorycrafting, that's dealing with an inexperienced player that needs help. While I agree that there does need to be a performance indicator of some type, quantifying it is what's hurting WoW atm. You don't have to quantify and break the equations of something (that you really shouldn't need or care to know anyway) in order to play at the minimum required on a normal mode. An in-game performance meter showing what % each player contributed would be ample without giving away the math and letting the idea of theorycrafting getting out of control, as it has in WoW.
    When you play a game that is based on numbers and millions of calculations, and when there is competition to it, there will always be theory crafting and there will always be "this way is better than every other way".

    If you want to be competing breakneck progression, then you will have to know what the best stats are for your toon, what the best enchants/gems/mods are for your toon and if you don't you're really just doing a disservice to your group. Why shouldn't you be focusing on preparing the best you can, when there is nothing stopping you? Theorycrafting hasn't killed WoW - if you don't enjoy trying to min/max your toon, then don't join a guild that is doing the hardest content in the game. Theorycrafting and min/maxing just comes with the territory of hard progression.

    There is no reason that a person won't be "focusing on killing the boss" just because he's min/maxed. Min/maxing is done outside of the raid, and doing your optimal dps rotation is just something that's expected of everyone in the group. Kill the boss quicker, do progression quicker.
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  17. #17
    The Patient Gavan's Avatar
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    There is no reason that a person won't be "focusing on killing the boss" just because he's min/maxed. Min/maxing is done outside of the raid, and doing your optimal dps rotation is just something that's expected of everyone in the group. Kill the boss quicker, do progression quicker.
    Basic benchmark for content difficulty though. Easy/Normal == Just play the game as best as you can. Hard/Brutal == Min/max and theorycraft.

    Several companies that make MMOs have a tendancy to forget that....
    Once we gathered friends together, drank a ton of Mountain Dew and beer, and role played with paper, pencils, and books.
    Now I log onto MMOs with the same people and we only talk about how hard we PWNed that: Noob, boss, etc.
    I hate modern gaming....

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavan View Post
    Basic benchmark for content difficulty though. Easy/Normal == Just play the game as best as you can. Hard/Brutal == Min/max and theorycraft.

    Several companies that make MMOs have a tendancy to forget that....
    You make it sound as if hard/brutal takes nothing more than min/maxing. It's a combination of both min/maxing and working together as best as your class will let you. Pushing out as much DPS as you possibly can by properly doing your rotations and having the optimal set up with your min/max stats.

    Normal modes are more like for people who just want to log on and down a few bosses and have fun while doing it without any stress. Hard modes are for people that go up and beyond that, the people who down normal modes easily. The difference between normal and hard modes is not the min/maxing alone.
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  19. #19
    Grunt Kambei's Avatar
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    What I find odd is what seems to be the advocation of ignorance as a way to play.

    Does the casual, easy/normal mode player need to be min/maxed? Probably not, but I doubt they want to be a failure either.

    Theorycrafting isn't something that is only for the "leet."

    Helpful information can be useful to people at all levels of play.

    What we are looking for are those with the math skills, time and interest to help us make said information available to the rest of the SWTOR community. From the hard core min/max people to the causal sometimes raider, we can all learn the game and improve together.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Kambei View Post
    What I find odd is what seems to be the advocation of ignorance as a way to play.

    Does the casual, easy/normal mode player need to be min/maxed? Probably not, but I doubt they want to be a failure either.

    Theorycrafting isn't something that is only for the "leet."

    Helpful information can be useful to people at all levels of play.

    What we are looking for are those with the math skills, time and interest to help us make said information available to the rest of the SWTOR community. From the hard core min/max people to the causal sometimes raider, we can all learn the game and improve together.
    You keep saying "we". Are you representing a website? SW:TOR Elitistjerks?
    My Cracked articles, writing blog, and Twitter.

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