Someone Explain the Ret paladin 4.3 changes to me, and why it will "fix" Ret.

[JayJay09]

dude, ret paladins currently sim just below demo locks, as the second highest class. and i'm talking about the PTR sim, not the live sim.

To hell with that. The mechanic stays gay, 2p bonus is to be baseline and not to be brought by a stupid set, in pvp everything even got a tad darker. So fuck those sims. I couldn't care less if ret was already #1 in dmg.. Cuz that would only be due to numbers and not because ret offers an awesome playstyle. You gotta think about the basics, the mechanic.. And not about stupid sims that make specs with a retarded mechanic topping the meters.

And do you seriously think Blizzard would allow us to be the meter topping spec and top dd? We'd get hotfixed before we can say "oh snap". They have to improve the mechanic and the performance in pvp.. Everything else is nonsense that might make some retard players feel happy, because they only care about the meters. I play retribution since the beginning of BC and I never rerolled or specced holy or what not. RNG = gay, PvP performance overall = gay, mechanic altogether = very gay, meters result = pretty awesome but wtf? Doesn't change the fact that the spec still is fucked up and it is Blizzards responsibility to bring a working mechanic. They earn tons of friggin money and are unable to make ret a proper spec.

I enter a BG, 108k HP mage sees me.. I have only SDM active.. And he spams spellsteal until the hell freezes.. He is running away from me (spellsteals with his back toward me, yeah.. right), gets sprint buffs en masse and touching him slows me.. I am sick of that. I cannot slow. My gap closer is countered by slows and what not. I am sick of that. SICK! And then I read bullshit like this that we top the meters in a ptr simulation.. Who the fuck cares!!?!

[Whereswaldo333]

I thought OP asked what changes are coming in 4.3. . . In hopes you check this out, these are the changes that will occur in 4.3.

Seal of Truth, when Judged, now benefits from a multiplier of 20% per stack of Censure, up from 10%.
Sanctified Retribution now increases the critical hit chance of Hammer of Wrath by 2/4/6%, down from 20/40/60%.
Two-Handed Weapon Specialization (passive) now increases damage by 25%, up from 20%.

Also our 2p set bonus from t13 will add a little more into our rotation.
2P - Your Judgement ability now also generates 1 Holy Power.
4P - While Zealotry is active your abilities deal 12% more damage.

[terrahero]

To hell with that. The mechanic stays gay, 2p bonus is to be baseline and not to be brought by a stupid set, in pvp everything even got a tad darker. So fuck those sims. I couldn't care less if ret was already #1 in dmg.. Cuz that would only be due to numbers and not because ret offers an awesome playstyle. You gotta think about the basics, the mechanic.. And not about stupid sims that make specs with a retarded mechanic topping the meters.

And do you seriously think Blizzard would allow us to be the meter topping spec and top dd? We'd get hotfixed before we can say "oh snap". They have to improve the mechanic and the performance in pvp.. Everything else is nonsense that might make feel some retard players happy, because they only care about the meters. I play retribution since the beginning of BC and I never rerolled or specced holy or what not. RNG = gay, PvP performance overall = gay, mechanic altogether = very gay, meters result = pretty awesome but wtf? Doesn't change the fact that the spec still is fucked up and it is Blizzards responsibility to bring a working mechanic. They earn tons of friggin money and are unable to make ret a proper spec.

I enter a BG, 108k HP mage sees me.. I have only SDM active.. And he spams spellsteal until the hell freezes.. He is running away from me (spellsteals with his back toward me, yeah.. right), gets sprint buffs en masse and touching him slows me.. I am sick of that. I cannot slow. My gap closer is countered by slows and what not. I am sick of that. SICK! And then I read bullshit like this that we top the meters in a ptr simulation.. Who the fuck cares!!?!

Settle down a bit, your gona get an infraction or a massive corronairy. But i do agree with what you have said. Topping the virtual meters is very nice and all, assuming it even still applies in T13 content. But it doesnt do jack about sitting on your hands waiting for procs. Or watching your dps nearly double once every 2min due to cooldowns. And thus relying heavily on those cooldowns to pull a good average dps.
Or getting your ass handed to you by any frost mage with atleast 2 working braincells, regardless of gear.

And it doesnt do anything for all those clunky or downright broken mechanics. That just stand as a testament to how little time Blizzard actually spend developing paladins. And how little they care that such mechanics are still in such a poor state after being live for nearly a year. And our consolation is that we get to be high on the meters? Well thanks, we'll see how long thats going to last....

[Doombringer]

A stance system would likely do wonders for our class.

I too am bothered by how the development team is bogged down by a "the class has to feel different" mentality. No. The class has to feel fun, be functional, and be fair.

> Fun: Obvious. When you play it, you like how your abilities work together, you like the look of spell effects, you feel powerful and paladin-y, and proud to be your class/spec.

> Functional: Your class and spec have to perform their role to their utmost. DPS should do great DPS, so that single target and AOE are both effective. Healing should do great healing, for group and single-target. Tanking should be on par with any other tank, for single-target and packs.

> Fair: The class should not feel punishing to play (see Fun), and balanced against other classes/specs in its role (Functional), and also not overpowered in a competitive (read: PVP) environment (again a subset of Functional).

The management/design team holds tight to a few initiatives that they really need to revise -- right now, we see examples of where a class/spec can "feel different" and still be horribly broken compared to others. The "feel different" approach smacks of "well, if you don't like how this class feels or works (low DPS, clunky mechanics, etc.), go play another... they're different!" which only encourages design lulls or traps, where certain classes and specs can fall into a 'neglected' or 'under-performing' area, and the devs end up not prioritizing a fix... but instead push you to "just try something else." Ugh. No.

[Manstallion]

A stance system would likely do wonders for our class.

I too am bothered by how the development team is bogged down by a "the class has to feel different" mentality. No. The class has to feel fun, be functional, and be fair.

> Fun: Obvious. When you play it, you like how your abilities work together, you like the look of spell effects, you feel powerful and paladin-y, and proud to be your class/spec.

> Functional: Your class and spec have to perform their role to their utmost. DPS should do great DPS, so that single target and AOE are both effective. Healing should do great healing, for group and single-target. Tanking should be on par with any other tank, for single-target and packs.

> Fair: The class should not feel punishing to play (see Fun), and balanced against other classes/specs in its role (Functional), and also not overpowered in a competitive (read: PVP) environment (again a subset of Functional).

The management/design team holds tight to a few initiatives that they really need to revise -- right now, we see examples of where a class/spec can "feel different" and still be horribly broken compared to others. The "feel different" approach smacks of "well, if you don't like how this class feels or works (low DPS, clunky mechanics, etc.), go play another... they're different!" which only encourages design lulls or traps, where certain classes and specs can fall into a 'neglected' or 'under-performing' area, and the devs end up not prioritizing a fix... but instead push you to "just try something else." Ugh. No.

I like the idea of a Holy/Ret/Prot "stance", but this would assuredly mean the death of Auras, which are pretty much the only thing that still makes paladins feel like paladins. I'd like to see a major overhaul to auras, maybe rolling some sort of stance system into them. Otherwise we just feel like warriors who deal holy damage.

[Judge Malthred]

You're taking a lot of working tools from other classes, and I can see why. But you are not taking anything away from Ret in return, and this ''one man army'' paladin it would create WOULD be overpowered. if not because of damage, because of insane utlity and defensives. I'm a ret paladin myself, so even though I would welcome being OP, I know it shouldn't happen.

If the army can change their slogan from being an army to being a 1 man army.... so can pallies!


On a more serious note though I think Seal of Justice should be buffed dmg wise to be the choice for PvPing as pursuit of justice is nice, but too often I find myself stuck chasing someone too far away to hit them but not far away enough to proc pursuit. This is usually involved with pillar humping which I think is ridiculous.

And return Seal Of Justice debuff to being applied through Judgement.

[zcks]

I like the idea of a Holy/Ret/Prot "stance", but this would assuredly mean the death of Auras, which are pretty much the only thing that still makes paladins feel like paladins. I'd like to see a major overhaul to auras, maybe rolling some sort of stance system into them. Otherwise we just feel like warriors who deal holy damage.

Actually seals would make the best candidate for a stance/presence/form system as their effects are only on you.

As is it wouldn't take much work to turn SOT into a dps "stance", SOR into a tank "stance" & seal of insight into a healer "stance".

As far as auras go however I do believe they need to be updated a bit, while their at it I think they should also toss a talent deep into each tree to give each aura additional personal effects relevant to the spec you are.

[Manstallion]

Actually seals would make the best candidate for a stance/presence/form system as their effects are only on you.

As is it wouldn't take much work to turn SOT into a dps "stance", SOR into a tank "stance" & seal of insight into a healer "stance".

As far as auras go however I do believe they need to be updated a bit, while their at it I think they should also toss a talent deep into each tree to give each aura additional personal effects relevant to the spec you are.

Seals that last until cancelled? Yes please. That probably would be the best route, I didn't even think of Seals as a candidate. Lackluster auras is really at the top of my pally with list though. When every single aura can be replaced with another class's ability, they become pointless and boring.

[Beefkow]

I like the changes, it gives us more continuous dps but our burst just hit a road.

[Lierial]

the thing that aghast me the most if the HoW change goes live and i fear as always it will, is we will have to pay 3 tp for a 60s CD reduction, since the 6% crit chance is worthless .......

im about 99% pve, but this change to how kills any kind of pvp, even if we would do twice dps as mages how does that help you, since you cant touch a mage or a priest or a lock or a hunter .....

[gherkin]

Set bonuses at the end of an expansion are ALWAYS there to bring up specs to par. You cannot dismiss them or imply that they should be made baseline. They are there to specifically address things in ways mechanic changes could, but don't because of how late in the expansion it is.

Expansion overview:
First tier - yay crappy bonus
Second/third tier - decent bonus, but could be better. Usually arranged in such a way as to encourage you to upgrade without being a massive dps hit when you go from TX 4/5 to TX 2/5 & TX+1 2/5
Last tier - massive bonus used to prop up the specs that are lagging behind or provide something interesting to those at the top.

I use warlocks as a case and point:
T7 - Crappy buff of varying size
T8 - Marginally better buff used to (attempt to) limit destro baseline burst (failed miserably)
T9 - Folds Corruption damage in an attempt to bring Affliction up and bring Destro's down - overshoots and now all warlocks are crap.
T10 - Massive holy-crap buff to Affliction/Demonology, developers give up on Destro.

T11 - Crappy buff of varying size
T12 - Marginally better buff used to increase Demonology DPS
T13 - Combined with a cooldown reduction to 5minutes, is a massive boost for Affliction/Destro, especially with Drain Soul/Shadowburn being used baseline to regen shards.



Whether or not you believe me is moot - this is their design methodology with set bonuses.

[terrahero]

the thing that aghast me the most if the HoW change goes live and i fear as always it will, is we will have to pay 3 tp for a 60s CD reduction, since the 6% crit chance is worthless .......

im about 99% pve, but this change to how kills any kind of pvp, even if we would do twice dps as mages how does that help you, since you cant touch a mage or a priest or a lock or a hunter .....

It leaves Sanc. Wrath kinda lackluster for the talent cost. AW should just be a 2min baseline ability as all the diffirent specs reduce it to a 2min cd with talents they pick up before AW is even learned from the trainer. So who has even seen a 3min AW since Cata?

Holy has Paragon of virtue, 2pts. Reduces cooldown of Divine Protection by 20sec, Hand of Sacrifice by 30sec and AW by 1min.

Prot has Shield of the Templar, a 3pter. But for those 3 points they reduce the cooldown of Guardian by 2min, AW by 1min and Divine Plea generates 3 Holy Power.

Ret pays 3 talent points and that reduces AW's cd by 1min and gives HoW a massive, ahum 6% crit chance. So for those 3 talent points we get 6% crit on HoW. Whereas Prot gets a 2min reduction on Guardian AND 3 free holy power every minute on demand. And Holy pays less talents and gets a cd reduction on divine prot and HoSac aswell.

Seems pretty underbudget to me.

[Pliers]

the thing that aghast me the most if the HoW change goes live and i fear as always it will, is we will have to pay 3 tp for a 60s CD reduction, since the 6% crit chance is worthless .......

You, and others saying this, are flat out wrong. The talent is very overbudget right now, and will still be great with most of the HoW crit removed. We stack our cooldowns, so reducing the cooldown is amazing. Saying that should be baseline is a perfectly fine argument, but it's also that talent which allows you to HoW during AW. Even with AW and Zealotry being stacked, you should be averaging 2 or 3 HoWs each time you use it. That's hundreds of DPS, even without a high crit rate. You get as many HoWs from AW as you do during the sub-20% burn of a boss. That part of the talent is better than the crit rate, for HoW damage.

[Talen]

You, and others saying this, are flat out wrong. The talent is very overbudget right now, and will still be great with most of the HoW crit removed. We stack our cooldowns, so reducing the cooldown is amazing. Saying that should be baseline is a perfectly fine argument, but it's also that talent which allows you to HoW during AW. Even with AW and Zealotry being stacked, you should be averaging 2 or 3 HoWs each time you use it. That's hundreds of DPS, even without a high crit rate. You get as many HoWs from AW as you do during the sub-20% burn of a boss. That part of the talent is better than the crit rate, for HoW damage.

There aren't "overbudget" talents right now - that was one of the rules Blizzard broke when redesigning the tree.
Also - stacking CDs is a major PROBLEM....the class is too reliant on the mechanic.
And withg AW and Zealotry stacked...you'll likely be lucky to use HoW at all.

EJL

[Revolutions]

Bring back Sanc Aura!

[PetersenIII]

Shamen don't have stances. <.< Oh wait, they don't work either. =(

[Pliers]

And withg AW and Zealotry stacked...you'll likely be lucky to use HoW at all.

They're stacked now, and that's where the 2-3 uses come from. It's 20 seconds, Zealotry will be 15. You'll get an AW before and after Zealotry, and at least 1 in the middle unless you get awesome proc luck.

[Tauren]

dude its fine enough jesus man who cares get to lvl 85 then care but i played pally cuz i liked the playstyle no offense just play for fun and u will do fine no matter what. they can do good in pve just need a lot more effort and pvp they have nice tools

[Thallidomaniac]

Bring back Sanc Aura!

Yes, this! Better yet, make it baseline so Prot Paladins and Holy Pallys that spam Exo can get some love too.

[Jyuri]

I really hope with this new changes in 4.3, it would increase our sustained DPS instead of always relying on bursts...