Need pro advice: Essence vs HoR vs Vessel

[deathgrinder]

Those are my three trinkets. Frost DW.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ddict/advanced

I'm pretty torn between what two would be of the most benefit for Heroic Firelands, generally speaking of course. Hell even specific fights if you want.

There is haste, mastery, passive str and procs to take into consideration as well as PoF and Raise Dead of course.

Anyone here wanna help break it down? I've read EJ but, still, in actuality its a toss up. Is that as far as I can/should take it trying to maximize my damage output?

Thanks

[DarkHatred]

If you have Heroic HoR, definately use that. I've used both Vessel and Essence, and i've found that Essence is much more useful in general, and if you macro it to your PoF and Ghoul regularly, it should come out on top of Vessel. Those short burn phases really enhance its effect.

[deathgrinder]

I only have normal Heart of Rage.

Now regarding Vessel in comparison to Essence. What makes it hard for me to choose is the fact that from what I have gathered, the passive str of essence is what 319? And vessel is obviously a chunk more.

Why specifically would it come out on top of vessel?e

[Soisoisoi]

BiS for T12N is Vessel and HoR, according to SimCraft.

[DismalNether]

I did the math on my guilds forum a while back using my own simmed stat weights and you should use HoR and Vessel, essence is a pretty horrible trinket if you are hit/expertise capped, the mastery is ok but even including a mastery and haste reforged in there it still came out on bottom

[DarkHatred]

Consider more than just the passive str (which btw equates to roughly 383 on the Essence). You're getting a chunk of Mastery and Haste from the essence, instead of a bit of crit from the VoA. The on-demand burst that will *always* line up with Pillar is a pretty major for those burn phases.

As for your Normal HoR, that is your call. You probably want to run a sim or 2 on that to judge between that or VoA, but just going off my own practices i'd stick with the HoR.

[deathgrinder]

Speaking of simcraft, I've been trying to utilize that tool more effectively.

I am not seeing stat weights from a sim, or I must not know where to look.

I have been using the add on Reforgelite which seems to do really well really fast, and I would like to be able to sim, then input stat weights myself manually from that sim, or is that something that I am over thinking or is unnecessary ?

Thank you for everyones input so far also,

[Deleted]

Essence of the Eternal Flame gives 383 strength in combination with Pillar of Frost as well as 383 mastery from which you can reforge 40% to haste. What you are really comparing is 20 strength/410 crit to 383 mastery which you can reforge to haste as well.

The difference is so small that it will change depending on a fight by fight basis. I'd personally use the Essence to have more control over burst when I need it.

[fangless]

Speaking of simcraft, I've been trying to utilize that tool more effectively.

I am not seeing stat weights from a sim, or I must not know where to look.

I have been using the add on Reforgelite which seems to do really well really fast, and I would like to be able to sim, then input stat weights myself manually from that sim, or is that something that I am over thinking or is unnecessary ?

Thank you for everyones input so far also,

You select to Analyze Str/Crit/Exp etc in the options before you simulate. Keeping in mind this will extend the time it takes for the results to finish though. The stat weights will show up in the results page at the top.

Essence of the Eternal Flame gives 383 strength in combination with Pillar of Frost as well as 383 mastery from which you can reforge 40% to haste. What you are really comparing is 20 strength/410 crit to 383 mastery which you can reforge to haste as well.

The difference is so small that it will change depending on a fight by fight basis. I'd personally use the Essence to have more control over burst when I need it.

What he said. I'm more of a fan of the controllable burst for fights where you have gaps or mobs that are more important than others.

[Deleted]

Vessel and heroic HoR, essence if you don't have hc HoR

[valliant13]

Those are my three trinkets. Frost DW.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ddict/advanced

I'm pretty torn between what two would be of the most benefit for Heroic Firelands, generally speaking of course. Hell even specific fights if you want.

There is haste, mastery, passive str and procs to take into consideration as well as PoF and Raise Dead of course.

Anyone here wanna help break it down? I've read EJ but, still, in actuality its a toss up. Is that as far as I can/should take it trying to maximize my damage output?

Thanks

I just sim-crafted three trinkets with a normal bis list for my own character. EoEF got me simming at 30842, VOA got 30830, and LTS got me 30784. HOR is a permanent trinket through this tier and quite possibly through the entire expansion assuming you have the heroic verson. While the dps is minimal it's still better for normal modes to equip the EoEF until and if you ever beat heroic ragnaros. The only trinket that simmed higher was Heroic Crushing Weight at 30939, but heroic AC is probably the hardest boss in the game now with the firelands nerfs. This is also assuming you're in the normal bis list as well as the 5/31/5 spec.

EDIT: just simmed apparatus and it is barely better than LTS. So it's basically a juggle between VOA and EoEF. If you prefer the controlled burst then EoEF is better is you rather passive str/crit then VOA is better.

[Wingwraith]

The difference is so small that it will change depending on a fight by fight basis. I'd personally use the Essence to have more control over burst when I need it.

Agreed.
Personally, I prefer Vessel and HoR over Essence, due to them not interfering with my Synapse Springs.

[Deleted]

Agreed.
Personally, I prefer Vessel and HoR over Essence, due to them not interfering with my Synapse Springs.

I feel your pain. Often I'm using Pillar of Frost and the Essence before my other procs so my tinker de-syncs with the trinket. It's a minor DPS loss but the tinker is a pain in the back.

[Razorice]

I'm rocking Vessel and HoR N. BiS for T12 if I'm correct. trying to get HoR HC but Chim's being a noob :'<

[valliant13]

I'm rocking Vessel and HoR N. BiS for T12 if I'm correct. trying to get HoR HC but Chim's being a noob :'<

if you're in the bis gear outside of vessel/other trinket its actually 2nd bis compared to EoEF by 12 dps...I was simming to see stat weights and dps difference in bis and swapped out a bunch of trinkets keeping H HOR in my second slot. Vessel is out dps'd by EoEF by 12 dps...and more on demand burst than constant damage which is actually a preference for a lot of dks.

[hasslehoof]

heart of rage is a no brainer, regardless if it's heroic or not.

[deathgrinder]

heart of rage is a no brainer, regardless if it's heroic or not.

See, I didn't really think it was that obvious.

Thank you for all the input this far, appreciate it.

[Deleted]

if you're in the bis gear outside of vessel/other trinket its actually 2nd bis compared to EoEF by 12 dps...I was simming to see stat weights and dps difference in bis and swapped out a bunch of trinkets keeping H HOR in my second slot. Vessel is out dps'd by EoEF by 12 dps...and more on demand burst than constant damage which is actually a preference for a lot of dks.

The value goes down a tiny bit every time you delay it by even a second, and it also goes down even more for every second it's on cooldown when the fight ends.

However just as Wingwraith I'm now also using the Vessel I got yesterday to work around my Engineering tinker.

[abysscrystal]

Essence of the Eternal Flame gives 383 strength in combination with Pillar of Frost as well as 383 mastery from which you can reforge 40% to haste. What you are really comparing is 20 strength/410 crit to 383 mastery which you can reforge to haste as well.

The difference is so small that it will change depending on a fight by fight basis. I'd personally use the Essence to have more control over burst when I need it.

You guys keep forgetting, that the static strengths bonuses are also scaled with pillars in 1/3rd of the time.

So:

- Essence: 1277*1.2*15/60=383 strength

- Vessel: 406*(1+0.2/3)=433 strength

- License: 380*(1+0.2/3) = 405 strength
It's also worth mentioning that on license there are just 1st class stats, hit and haste after reforging (hit is first class, if you are not over the cap), so it's not a bad trink at all.

- HOR normal: 1926*20/110=350 strength or 420 if you can always pillar it, but you can't pillar all HOR proc if you calculate with 110 sec, cuz 110 sec is shorter that two pillars CD, which is 120 sec. If I am especially lucky and all HOR's procs would exaclty match pillars CD, it would mean it has 20 sec uptime in every 120 secs (instead of the normal 110 which is used to calculate its average strength value), so it would just give 1926*20/120=321 average strength or 385 strength with pillars. HOR is just not as good as EJ says.

- Apparatus normal:
383*(1+0.2/3)=408 strength and it's proc is 20% haste, which scales multiplicatively with other sources of haste and applied to ghoul for example. It averages out to 508*5*15/120=317 haste, but its much more valueable, than it looks, cuz it's coming in bursts and it's multiplicative. Not very bad.



---------- Post added 2011-10-11 at 09:59 AM ----------



To the original topic, vessel vs. essence: the things are getting even more complicated when you try to compare 383 reforgeable mastery vs 410 non-reforgable crit and 50 strength.

Vessel:
- 50 strength is around 0.6-0.8% plus dps at my current average strength.
- 410 critical strike rating is 2.3% crit
The problem is that because of KM procs, this crit is devalued a bit.

Essence:
I cant remember exactly how much I can reforge, but I think 383 mastery can be reforged to around 130 haste and 253 mastery.
- 250 mastery is around 1.4% mastery
- 130 haste is around 1% haste
The other thing here, that this 1% haste is much more then 1%, cuz it scales multiplicatively with other sources of haste.

I think that after devalueing the crit cuz KM and increasing the haste's value cuz its multiplicative nature, it's gonna be very-very close.

[Gnomatose]

I use Essence and H HoR...and I wouldn't trade them for anything, unless it was a Heroic Vessel, which I'm not likely to get. How can you not love Essence lining up with Pillar of Frost? So what if there's a chance at the END of a fight to lose a bit on a trinket? If you're downing the bosses, that means you're doing your job and your trinkets are only aiding you in that respect. Don't be so quick to devalue Essence simply cuz "someone told you it sucked" or "it simmed poorly".