SimC 4.3 with 12H gear; Demo tops by 1k

[Hulm]

Since when? With ~25% of your DPS coming from that monster DoT called your pet/guardian, I hardly think the spec is immobile. Affliction has to stand still to cast their filler, Haunt, execute and Unstable Affliction. Demonology has to stand still to cast their filler, HoG, execute and Immolate. Affliction has an ability to refresh Corruption (already an instant cast), Demonology has an ability to refresh Immloate (saving them one of their immobile casts). Both trees can keep Immolate/UA up with a Fel Flame if they're forced to move.

If anything, you could make the argument that Demonology suffers less on sustained movement because they don't have the risk of Shadow Embrace stacks falling off the target. Affliction's stronger spell DoT damage doesn't offer any extra mobility. Demonology can cover that damage with their significantly stronger pet that is essentially just a set-and-forget DoT. Hell, losing your HoG pet buff is hardly as bad as watching your Haunt debuff fall off, due to movement.

Where's the mobility problem for Demonology? I'm not sure you've really thought this through. When the pet and guardian were for absolute shit and 40% of Demonology's damage was coming from Soul Fire under the effect of Decimation like it was in ICC, then I'd agree it was less mobile than Affliction, but I wouldn't agree that assessment is correct any longer.

---------- Post added 2011-10-10 at 10:50 PM ----------



Top AoE if you have all of your cooldowns available and juggle a pet. Every two minutes we can put out a big burst of AoE, but there are other classes and trees out there that can consistently put out more AoE for significantly less effort.

Your quoted poster was not comparing Demo to either of the 2 other warlock specs, so I am not understanding why you launched into this big explanation about why afflic/demo suffer more.

[Jessicka]

[Citation Needed]

It was provided. raidbots.com is a collection of parses from WoL, which shows in 25 man heroic encounters, Demonology is outperformed by Affliction on every encounter with the singular exception of Rhyolith. I can see no factor, other than movement, that would significantly effect Demonology any more than it would Affliction.

[Jahrastafari]

I give up.. Do you even play this game? [nerdrage]lifetap is part of the optimal affliction rotation - fel flame is not part of the optimal demonology rotation[/nerdrage]

k?

In terms of mobility, active abilities that do DPS while moving > doing no DPS while moving.

[Jessicka]

In terms of mobility, active abilities that do DPS while moving > doing no DPS while moving.

Except Life Tap is going to be used by Affliction regardless of movement, do you not understand this? Fel Flame on the other hand is only going to be used if there is movement.

[Stridulent]

Then start by providing soom proof of your claims. Because until now, you've just inundated this thread with angry opinions and baseless assumptions. Sure, I believe you actually think your arguments are valid, but all gathered data prove you're wrong: Both H&S parses as logs show that demo suffers more from movement than any other warlock spec.

I'm actually curious as to what fights you mention as well. Because you can't say Beth'tilac, Alysrazor, Rhyolith, or Ragnaros since all of those fights have moments of downtime and multiple adds. Shannox and Baleroc are little to no movement, so you can't really argue those either. The only true representation is normal majordomo where demo locks are still parsing in the top 50.

[nocturnus]

What data? Nobody has bothered to post any data.

Quite a few of us have already pointed you to the right direction. If you expect any of us, to hold your hand while we show you what research means, you're mistaking.

As for your witty 'nerdrage' remark, don't worry. I'm used to your offensive approach when someone invalidates your claims with (pretty common) facts. It's a primitive kind of self-defence. Quite inefficient though.

[Jahrastafari]

It was provided. raidbots.com is a collection of parses from WoL, which shows in 25 man heroic encounters, Demonology is outperformed by Affliction on every encounter with the singular exception of Rhyolith. I can see no factor, other than movement, that would significantly effect Demonology any more than it would Affliction.

You linked to the root of raidbots.com and that's proof? You extrapolate from the root of raidbots.com that the reason anytime Affliction is higher is because Demonology has mobility problems? Holy shit I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when I come to these forums.

[Rakudjo]

Off-topic, but this is probably the best Blizz has done at class balance in BiS gear yet. There's only a 5k gap between the top and bottom of the competitive DPS, and imo the only specs that really need any buffing are SPriests and Boomkins to catch up to that top bracket (the rest are mostly joke specs, such as Disc Smite, DW UH, and Enhance + Caster weapon).

[Jahrastafari]

Except Life Tap is going to be used by Affliction regardless of movement, do you not understand this? Fel Flame on the other hand is only going to be used if there is movement.

Again, for the umpteenth time, I understand that in terms of maximizing play, you want to Lifetap while moving. But you're doing no active DPS and are taking the risk of dropping UA while tapping. This does not give you a mobility advantage over Demonology.

---------- Post added 2011-10-11 at 11:07 AM ----------

Quite a few of us have already pointed you to the right direction. If you expect any of us, to hold your hand while we show you what research means, you're mistaking.

As for your witty 'nerdrage' remark, don't worry. I'm used to your offensive approach when someone invalidates your claims with (pretty common) facts. It's a primitive kind of self-defence. Quite inefficient though.

Lay the knowledge down on me. All I've gotten so far is logical fallacies in terms of mechanics and a link to the root of raidbots.com that somehow magically proves that anytime Affliction trumps Demonology it's because Demonology has mobility issues.

I'd love to have you guys break down the parses for me and show me that the reason that Affliction trumped Demonology in a particular fight is because of DPS loss due to mobility.

[Jessicka]

You linked to the root of raidbots.com and that's proof? Wow, I feel like I'm stroking out here.

Sup? You can't manage the menus at the side? Let me help:

Overall DPS - Affliction wins!
Beth'tilac - Affliction wins!
Lord Rhylolith - Demonology wins, by a staggering 750DPS
Alysrazor - Affliction wins!
Shannox - Affliction wins!
Baleroc - Affliction wins!
Majordomo - Affliction wins!
Ragnaros - Affliction wins!

Was it seriously necessary for me to link individually through all that?

[Jahrastafari]

Sup? You can't manage the menus at the side? Let me help:

Overall DPS - Affliction wins!
Beth'tilac - Affliction wins!
Lord Rhylolith - Demonology wins, by a staggering 750DPS
Alysrazor - Affliction wins!
Shannox - Affliction wins!
Baleroc - Affliction wins!
Majordomo - Affliction wins!
Ragnaros - Affliction wins!

Was it seriously necessary for me to link individually through all that?

Excellent, now break down the parses and show me that the reason Affliction came out on top was due to mobility issues on Demonology's end.

[Jessicka]

Again, for the umpteenth time, I understand that in terms of maximizing play, you want to Lifetap while moving. But you're doing no active DPS and are taking the risk of dropping UA while tapping. This does not give you a mobility advantage over Demonology.

More instants = more opportunities to pre-empt movement = more mobility. As has been said countless times, as Affliction you're going to Life Tap anyway, using that LT and moving pre-emptively within that cast is a DPS gain over using Fel Flame and moving during that cast.

[Jahrastafari]

More instants = more opportunities to pre-empt movement = more mobility.

I'm not sure I follow. More instants?

[Stridulent]

More instants = more opportunities to pre-empt movement = more mobility. As has been said countless times, as Affliction you're going to Life Tap anyway, using that LT and moving pre-emptively within that cast is a DPS gain over using Fel Flame and moving during that cast.

What if I shadowflame while moving? That's in my normal rotation. Does that count?

[Jessicka]

Excellent, now break down the parses and show me that the reason Affliction came out on top was due to mobility issues on Demonology's end.

How about you tell me what's making Affliction so strong? Ceraintly padding on Shannox and flying on Alysrazor give it an advantage there; but the other fights?

[Stridulent]

How about you tell me what's making Affliction so strong? Ceraintly padding on Shannox and flying on Alysrazor give it an advantage there; but the other fights?

More warlocks with the legendary play affliction because it benefits slightly more since the proc chance is the same for each spec, but affliction relies less on its pet. That could be one of many reasons skewing the results.

[Jahrastafari]

How about you tell me what's making Affliction so strong? Ceraintly padding on Shannox and flying on Alysrazor give it an advantage there; but the other fights?

You're the one that claimed that the root of raidbots.com was prima facie evidence of Demonology's supposed mobility problem. I think the burden of proof falls back on you.

[Jessicka]

What if I shadowflame while moving? That's in my normal rotation. Does that count?

You're not using SF as Affliction? You're doing it wrong. I wish people would get that every spec should be using that and not just Demo.

I'm not sure I follow. More instants?

Demonology's instants are: Corruption, Shadowflame, Doom. For Doom it's probable you don't want to be refreshing this early at all, since it's usually placed under a maximum number of buffs, making refreshing it early a very significant DPS loss. Shadowflame has a cooldown, and as such wont necessarily be available. And Corruption is a DPS loss to refresh early regardless. That means Demo falls back onto Fel Flame which is also a DPS loss.

Affliction, similarly has Shadowflame and Doom, under the same constraints as above. It also however has Life Tap, which you will sooner or later use regardless of movement. It is not a DPS loss therefore to fall back onto this during movement. It too can use Fel Flame if you know you wont need to use Life Tap again in the encounter. Moreover, Life Tap can be used in situations even when facing away from your target.

You're the one that claimed that the root of raidbots.com was prima facie evidence of Demonology's supposed mobility problem. I think the burden of proof falls back on you.

The evidence is in the sims, this is backed up by those parses. Tell me how both are wrong. It's you, and you alone afterall, that's trying to demonstrate that Demonology is not effected by movement in the way the sims suggest.

[Stridulent]

You're not using SF as Affliction? You're doing it wrong. I wish people would get that every spec should be using that and not just Demo.

I never said I wasn't. Your argument is that demonology doesn't have anything in its rotation that can be cast while moving. I'm saying you are wrong.

[Jahrastafari]

Demonology's instants are: Corruption, Shadowflame, Doom. For Doom it's probable you don't want to be refreshing this early at all, since it's usually placed under a maximum number of buffs, making refreshing it early a very significant DPS loss. Shadowflame has a cooldown, and as such wont necessarily be available. And Corruption is a DPS loss to refresh early regardless. That means Demo falls back onto Fel Flame which is also a DPS loss.

Affliction, similarly has Shadowflame and Doom, under the same constraints as above. It also however has Life Tap, which you will sooner or later use regardless of movement. It is not a DPS loss therefore to fall back onto this during movement. It too can use Fel Flame if you know you wont need to use Life Tap again in the encounter. Moreover, Life Tap can be used in situations even when facing away from your target.

The evidence is in the sims, this is backed up by those parses. Tell me how both are wrong. It's you, and you alone afterall, that's trying to demonstrate that Demonology is not effected by movement in the way the sims suggest.

Demonology does Life tap. We also have the ability to Life tap during movement. If we don't need to tap, if our Bane is ticking, if Corruption is up and Shadowflame is on cooldown or out of reach, we Fel Flame. You should be doing the exact same thing as an Affliction Warlock. The suppostition that Demonology never has to Lifetap is absurd to begin with.