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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Zachyveng View Post
    Woah now, take a slow breath, in out in out. Ok now we can tell you've got issues with people that spam the dps meters after fights and go "LOLOL LOOK MA I DID XXXX damage!". However this is not the correct way to use meters. My most commonly looked up thing with my recount is my damage done (and slams done things like that) and how much damage was taken on the boss by avoidable damage. Do not judge the people who use them correctly as "elitist no-lifer dps" (Also seriously, stop insulting people with that crap. Just because someone can top you does not mean they have no life. Although I guess it's the better than me = no life, worse than me = l2play noob people that started it so /shrug). Just remember since there aren't cross realm dungeons if you run into someone being an asshole and using "swtorrecountname" to link damage done just ignore/blacklist him and move on. Don't punish the people using tools correctly simply because a small minority use them incorrectly.
    did you miss my whole first line? I said it would be fine if people used them for thier own improvement.
    We are basically on the same page, damage meters are fine for self improvement but not for comparative purposes, I just hate jerks more then you.

    I harshly use the "no-lifer"-like comment to counter the innacurate "you're just a noob"/"you don't have talent" arguement because the only way to fight illogical people is to use illogical methods (i.e. namecalling). The logic of not being a jerk and to not downtalk people who don't put such a high priority on game numbers is lost on people who use DPS meters to brag and kick people.

  2. #42
    They have combat logging, so its impossible to prevent a damage meter, people who cry about it need to accept its inevitability. As for the person saying "make it always hidden in combat!" that's not going to happen either. When/if in game addons become available (Bioware said they'd like to allow them post-launch) the onus of cutting people off would be on to the addon writer, and they aren't going to put those kind of restrictions on their addons... or if they do, someone else will just write another without it.

    Before addons are enabled, since the game can create a parsable log, at the very least, someone will make a log site similar to WoL, and depending on how long the delay before in game addons are allowed, someone will likely create a 3rd party program that actively parses in real time (final fantasy XI had this as addons were never allowed).

    If you are distracted by meters and can't dodge fire cause you just have to stare at the bars, sorry but that's on you, not the addon. If you hate meters cause you get called out for doing less damage than you should with your gear, sorry but that's on you again, while I don't expect people to have perfect rotation and do max damage all the time, I do expect in a serious progression for people to know what they are doing. I could care less about dungeons or PUGs as long as things are dying... but if we're hitting enrage timers then yea, I'll point out the people pulling sub-par numbers.

    Like one of my best friends who I raid with on my warrior alt, she never dies to fire, and always avoids mechanics, but rarely does over 12k DPS in firelands. Is she a "bad" player? no. Would I bring her to a progression raid? not unless she learns how to up her DPS. I use the log to try to pin-point her errors and help her out with her rotation, something that would be near impossible without meters/logs unless i just wanted to target her and stare at what she was doing the entire fight.

    People need to get over themselves and learn that damage DOES mean something, even if an encounter was balanced entirely around having huge mechanics people had to avoid for 99% of the fight, so everyone's DPS was low... you'd still want the people who could do slightly less low DPS (as long as they can still avoid said mechanics), as it would make you have to play out the mechanics for a shorter period of time. If you're kicked from a PUG for doing 5% less damage than people they're probably assholes, its not the addon. If you're kicked for doing significantly less damage than people because you're having to fulfill a utility role, they're probably assholes who don't even know fight mechanics, better to get out while you can anyways... If you're kicked for doing significantly less damage than people in similar gear to you, in similar situations, then that's YOUR fault not the addon's... accept it, and move on.
    Last edited by Delia; 2011-10-11 at 05:37 PM.

  3. #43
    Why not make everyone happy and code the log so only you know your data.
    That way people like me who like damage meters only as a means to test new ideas and gear and to make sure we're pulling our weight are happy without causing the problems.

    Dont let an addon read damage stats for others, no linking means no abuse

  4. #44
    If raid bosses are designed so that coordination and resource management are required over massive amounts of damage, this conversation will be moot.

    Everyone is discussing this as if Bioware is taking Blizzard's raid boss design, which isn't really known yet. Just relax and wait for the game to come out. Play it to end game, do some raids, then determine if a damage meter is necessary.

  5. #45
    High Overlord Zachyveng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeina View Post
    If raid bosses are designed so that coordination and resource management are required over massive amounts of damage, this conversation will be moot.

    Everyone is discussing this as if Bioware is taking Blizzard's raid boss design, which isn't really known yet. Just relax and wait for the game to come out. Play it to end game, do some raids, then determine if a damage meter is necessary.
    Even if the end game isn't focused on doing massive amounts of damage what about if it's having to avoid a gigantic turret shooting missiles or healing the raid/tanks or....You get the picture? Everyone focuses on the damage part of meters when there's so much more that you get from using meters.
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarasthura View Post
    If you don't believe me, go check out the threads yourself. Bring up whether or not they should be allowed and you will get all kinds of responses, ranging from "its cheating!" to "it's lazy to not use buttons 1 - 0" to "I dont want recount to ruin the game" with a little of Gearscore hatred thrown in

    http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=409475

    Although generally the forums are usually the vocal minority, I really hope that Bioware doesn't listen to the knee-jerk reactions going on in the forums.
    It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that I believe the general population is a bunch of mouth breathing swamp dwelling one-celled homophobic xenophobes, so I don't really care about the opinion of "most people".
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  7. #47
    Herald of the Titans inboundpaper's Avatar
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    Probably going to be one shortly after launch. If it's Bioware or third party is up for speculation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodias View Post
    Sadly, with those actors... the "XXX Adaptation" should really be called 50 shades of watch a different porno.
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  8. #48
    Scarab Lord Roose's Avatar
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    It is so funny how a data analysis tool could lead to such heated discussions.

    Should we also stop keeping scores and stats in sports? Why not get rid of anything remotely competitive or that could lead to competition because a few people get offended? No. The problem is not in the tool, but in the user. People that fail because they are distracted by a meter would likely fail regardless and just use that as an excuse. They KNOW what they are supposed to be doing.

    Not everyone uses meters to be dicks either. "hey, you would do much better if you used [insert core ability here], because it is your primary damage source." Of course some people just do not want any advice no matter how it is presented to them. Then again, lots of times ppl say thanks because they just did not know and are new. I want to help those players because we were all there at one time.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Sangomah View Post
    and does it matter much?
    Yeah, it does to me. As a dps in WoW I don't enjoy myself unless I can see that I'm performing well, otherwise its just a rotation and no one can tell if im doing it well or poorly so why bother.

  10. #50
    Scarab Lord Roose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kore nametooshort View Post
    Yeah, it does to me. As a dps in WoW I don't enjoy myself unless I can see that I'm performing well, otherwise its just a rotation and no one can tell if im doing it well or poorly so why bother.
    Just like an athlete cares about getting that 40 time. A tenth of a second is huge to them.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by tripplebooya View Post
    Why not make everyone happy and code the log so only you know your data.
    That way people like me who like damage meters only as a means to test new ideas and gear and to make sure we're pulling our weight are happy without causing the problems.

    Dont let an addon read damage stats for others, no linking means no abuse
    This would be nice but it's really just a dream. Jerks will mod the game so they can be pretentious and condescending to other people to make themselves feel better eventually.

    DPS meter for self improvement = good person
    DPS meter for comparing/judging others = bad person

    Don't insult people. Infracted.
    Last edited by Trollsbane; 2011-10-11 at 06:02 PM.

  12. #52
    Scarab Lord Trollsbane's Avatar
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    Stop with the name calling.

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  13. #53
    I understand damage meters have there place in MMOs I'm similar to the guy a few posts ago where I used them to gauge my performance against my raid members. I never used them to link in chat to belittle people or flex my epeen, it was just for my personal use.

    Do I want damage meters in SWTOR? mmm I'd have to say yes but I do want the boss fights to be more about tactics and excecution then damage done. Meters are a great tool for assessing your abilities and performance I just don't want to see them used as epeen flexing tools like they are now in WoW.

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  14. #54
    a lot of discussion on this, and I'm firmly against this. I don't want this to become WoW. Peple too distracted by damage meters to pay attention or do the fight properly. People acting like elitist assholes. People linking meters after every fight. No thanks.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by spleen1015 View Post
    I hope when they enable addons, they prohibit damage meters. It isn't likely, but I can hope.

    Why? personally the only 3 addons i used for raiding were my Razor Naga's version of bartender; Recount/Skada (i switched a bit before i quit); and Deadly Boss Mods.

    Damage meters are awesome for 1) real time judging my DPS / HPS and 2) for trashing my friends for being nubs.

  16. #56
    Immortal Dezerte's Avatar
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    As mentioned, perhaps the best solution for damage meters is if they are only personal, only the player can see his own DPS, nobody else. PUG's will be more friendly & guilds will just share their data and compare.

    Also I agree that bosses should be more about tactics & reacting to changes and less about staring at bars & timers.

  17. #57
    Scarab Lord Roose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystik View Post
    a lot of discussion on this, and I'm firmly against this. I don't want this to become WoW. Peple too distracted by damage meters to pay attention or do the fight properly. People acting like elitist assholes. People linking meters after every fight. No thanks.
    This never happened in my guild runs. Perhaps you need to change who you raid with or lower your expectations of random strangers.

    ---------- Post added 2011-10-11 at 01:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    As mentioned, perhaps the best solution for damage meters is if they are only personal, only the player can see his own DPS, nobody else. PUG's will be more friendly & guilds will just share their data and compare.

    Also I agree that bosses should be more about tactics & reacting to changes and less about staring at bars & timers.
    Personal meters? Is this the extent that you feel we need to go to in order for the people that you play with to be civil? I do agree that bosses should be based more on mechanics, though.

  18. #58
    oh I remember certain ICC guild runs where someone would brag about being first on the meter only to get yelled at for never attacking a bone spike on Marrowgar or other stupid shit.

    Deadly Boss Mods is even worse. Everyone got stuck using it and it just dumbed the game down and almost played it for you.

  19. #59
    I want to see everyones damage, but the chat linking is incredibly stupid, thats very true, I always despised that.
    the people who are actually interested in those numbers see them anyway.

    and I dont get the whole "people who watch the meters dont pay attention to the bossfight!", well in my 6 years experience of high level raiding I came to the conclusion that whoever is at the top of the damage actually paid very much attention to the fight, because otherwhise he would be dead in most cases and other players would be at the top.

    and about people acting like elitist assholes, well I guess we all have known such people, but then again this is an mmo and there are lot of idiots, and they act like idiots with or withhout the damagemeters. its a matter of chossing a good guild without such people.

  20. #60
    Scarab Lord Trollsbane's Avatar
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    A car when used incorrectly is dangerous. And when in the hands of people who don't use them correctly, they can be very annoying.
    Same goes for:
    Bikes
    Rollerblades
    Skateboards
    Musical instruments
    The internet
    Weapons
    Cookies
    Alcohol
    Telephones
    Pain medicine
    Water
    Chairs

    Etc. You get my point. Almost everything in this world can be abused. Almost everything also has a use, and when used correctly, has a function.
    I use damage meters and parses to understand far more than who's best and who's not doing things correctly. There is wonderful information to be found in these things. Just because you are in a guild, or PUGing with people that mis-use these tools does not mean they are bad tools. The best advice is to find people similar to you, and run things with them. If you don't want to make friends or put out the effort to find people that share your views, your complaints are kind of mute. In a game that a huge number of people play together, you'll find all walks of life, and your happiness in this game shouldn't be dicated by others. But you also can't blame them for it. It's your choice how you play the game, and who you play with. If you have a problem with something, it's up to you to fix it. No one can do it for you.

    Find your game. Take control. Play with people who share beliefs with you. You wouldn't become friends and hang out with people in real life if you hated them or the way they acted and treated people, would you? So why settle for that in a video game that should be used for enjoyment?

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