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  1. #1

    The Intellect VS Spirit debate on enchants.

    I think I found out what's going on.

    Intellect is better if it's passive, i.e. if it's always there. The mana pool will be bigger, the heals will be bigger, the crit will be bigger. IF you sit and do nothing, mana will be saved.

    If you proc Intellect randomly, you got a huge problem. It may proc when you are full mana and there's no much need for "spam" yet. You will waste the proc.
    It may proc when you are in the middle of the fight with half mana but it won't save its mana when you don't do much and then the mana bar drops down.

    So, I think it's obvious, Spirit should be selected on random procs and intellect on passive (of course, with some reasonable parity, same ilevel, not 10 Spirit vs 200 intellect etc.)

    One could say Spirit could proc in the beginning, but even in the very beginning most healers will have about 10% down so it's even there a save.

  2. #2
    The math disagrees with you.
    However, GOOD players will disregard that and already do what you're saying.
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  3. #3
    "Math". I play an Arcane Mage which is the closest thing you can get in the game in "Patchwerk". It will be spamming its abilities in a relatively stable and predictable manner, provided there is nothing to deviate from a Patchwerk environment. But even there, the math is not always on par, unless the math models the environment perfectly, which is extremely hard. e.g. no model has been applied yet on a tool for Alysrazor DPS (a full model).

    A healer is like that but 100 X more (and Tanks). I mean, whatever the math says, there's an obvious element here: You do not need intellect a lot of the time. If it procs for 10 seconds every 30 seconds, you may miss it all if your a bit unlucky.

    Unless of course you are extremely overgeared and everyone is stack on boss and all you do Holy Fire and Smite for Atonement. You are effectively simpler than an Arcane Mage on Patchwerk there. Sure, there intellect proc will be amazing to be random.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by FemaleGoblinMage View Post
    I think I found out what's going on.
    If you proc Intellect randomly, you got a huge problem. It may proc when you are full mana and there's no much need for "spam" yet. You will waste the proc.
    It may proc when you are in the middle of the fight with half mana but it won't save its mana when you don't do much and then the mana bar drops down.
    You're thinking purely from a throughput standpoint (i.e. dps PoV). The problem with this is you fail to take into account how healers regen mana during a fight. Yes, spirit is a large part of that, but some healers, most noteably paladins and druids, regen more when they have a larger mana pool. Innervate and Divine Plea both return a percentage of your total mana, and a very large percentage at that. Timed with procs like power torrent and lightweave embroider, these abilities can easily swing 5-10k mana, just from one such proc. Add to that the fact that replenishment (which also functions on total mana pool) is typically a larger portion of regen than spirit based mechanics, and on par with divine plea/innervate, and you have a valid reason for going with intellect procs.

    Its a very close thing and typically comes down to what a healer is most comfortable with. If they can track their procs effectively (not necessarily optimally, but probably about 80% efficiency or so) intellect procs will come out ahead due to the extra healing and larger potential mana regen. If they can't do this, spirit is a better option, but ultimately weaker than the better player's alternative.

  5. #5
    Don't forget the mana regen disc priests get from INT, this is a priest forum after all, even holy priests using fiend/hymn on INT proccs is an important aspect.

    tl;dr; INT > spirit
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurzior View Post
    You're thinking purely from a throughput standpoint (i.e. dps PoV).
    Eh, it's not a dps perspective (at least not a priest dps perspective) because during a fight spirit has nothing at all to do with spriest's mana. Since the only thing FGM seems to be considering is the mana part of int (which is a mistake) and spirit then I would have to assume he is arguing on the part for what a healer should use.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    Eh, it's not a dps perspective (at least not a priest dps perspective) because during a fight spirit has nothing at all to do with spriest's mana. Since the only thing FGM seems to be considering is the mana part of int (which is a mistake) and spirit then I would have to assume he is arguing on the part for what a healer should use.
    Just meant that the idea of only focusing on throughput from the int procs. For a dps of any class, you get more throughput when you have more int. For healers, this is true too. But I meant to point out he's ignoring that intellect is a regen stat for healers in addition to a throughput one.

  8. #8
    He has a point that with them being uncontrolled procs the likelihood of using an int proc for say rapture is low if your not watching out for it but with that said it's not like we have any mana issues anyways well for disc at least.

    I have two int procs, the cloak and weapon 500 / 550 I think plus an on use trinket with 1277 int I only ever use the trinket to gain more mana from rapture the other two I couldn't care less when they proc-ed off, sure they boost my healing, crit and mana pool / regen a little bit but I don't think its worth my time tracking them to get best use hell half the time when they proc no one needs healing and I'm not in the habit of wasting mana just because of a proc.

    Spirit procs on the other hand wouldn't be wasted but since mana isn't really an issue what would be the point in having more regen.



    FemaleGoblinMage Can I ask you a question, why all the priest questions do you have an alt you are wondering about or a friend you think is doing it wrong? its just the questions you have asked in the last few days to me seam to have some sort of underlying agenda.

  9. #9
    "int > spirit"

    I totally agree. I come from a Caster DPS standpoint and I know VERY well how powerful intellect is.

    What I'm saying is in the SPECIAL circumstance of RANDOM procs intellect is VERY RNG [and circumstance] based. It will be LOST a lot of the time. Spirit will be reliable. It will only be unreliable in the first 10 seconds of a fight which are irrelevant.


    edit: I mean, this isn't a Patchwerk fight you do Holy Fire and Smite only on overgeared characters, a healer at its right ilevel and a decent difficulty will not be casting a lot of the time and when casting it might be very low unimportant heals.

  10. #10
    Out of pure interest, do you play a Healer? It sounds to me like you've just thought of this, thought you'd tell other Healers to do this, and then claimed that you know the strengths and weaknesses of Intellect because you play a DPS. (edit: I don't mean to sound condescending when I say this by the way, I'm just asking)

    I don't Heal at the moment (although I have been considering going back to it, if even for an OS) but I've always preferred to use Spirit proccs and passive Intellect. For on use affects, both have their uses. I know this is your opinion too, it's just that you keep trying to compare how Healers stat with how Mages stat.

  11. #11
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    post removed
    Last edited by Mikayo; 2011-10-11 at 10:41 PM. Reason: unrelated and borderline rude
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  12. #12
    I just do what Elitistjerks.com tells me to do, because I'm really a nub and cba to figure this stuff out for myself :-P

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by FemaleGoblinMage View Post
    What I'm saying is in the SPECIAL circumstance of RANDOM procs intellect is VERY RNG [and circumstance] based. It will be LOST a lot of the time. Spirit will be reliable. It will only be unreliable in the first 10 seconds of a fight which are irrelevant.
    If you have Replenishment in your raid group, the +int procs are only wasted if you're sitting at full mana (when +spirit procs are also wasted).
    Besides, at this point, mana is not an issue for most healers; frankly, I'd prefer a bit of RNG through-put increased than a "dependable" (it's still RNG!) mana-regen boost.
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  14. #14
    I know you feel rather strongly about this, so posting a wall of text won't do a whole lot of good. Understand first that I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it's not clear-cut one way or the other.

    I'll just say that the 'math', which you're right to not put 100% faith in, shows transient intellect to still be worth about 2.5 times spirit (in terms of total healing done). Your reaction is worth exploring - that is, int procs may happen when you won't actually need to spike. But they ALWAYS add efficiency, and lining up a dual uptime LW/PT with shadowfiend and hymn is still worth about 20k mana over DG/HS, making LW/PW not quite as far behind on the mp5 front.

    You must realize that coming to a forum where this has been debated for months and months since the release of cata, and making bold claims like this is somewhat on the argumentative side. Re-evaluating things is always worthwhile, but I'd urge you to look at both sides of the matter yourself rather than what you've done here.

    If you care to see what the mp5 difference is, I made a thread recently on the same topic. Spirit has gained value since cata, and gives far more mp5 compared to int than it used to. Another factor is that spirit procs always even out, while int procs have an RNG element. The efficiency that transient int adds is hard to ignore/pass up.
    Last edited by zakaluka; 2011-10-11 at 06:20 PM.

  15. #15
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by zakaluka View Post
    I know you feel rather strongly about this, so posting a wall of text won't do a whole lot of good. Understand first that I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it's not clear-cut one way or the other.

    I'll just say that the 'math', which you're right to not put 100% faith in, shows transient intellect to still be worth about 2.5 times spirit (in terms of total healing done). Your reaction is worth exploring - that is, int procs may happen when you won't actually need to spike. But they ALWAYS add efficiency, and lining up a dual uptime LW/PT with shadowfiend and hymn is still worth about 20k mana over DG/HS, making LW/PW not quite as far behind on the mp5 front.

    You must realize that coming to a forum where this has been debated for months and months since the release of cata, and making bold claims like this is somewhat on the argumentative side. Re-evaluating things is always worthwhile, but I'd urge you to look at both sides of the matter yourself rather than what you've done here.

    If you care to see what the mp5 difference is, I made a thread recently on the same topic. Spirit has gained value since cata, and gives far more mp5 compared to int than it used to. Another factor is that spirit procs always even out, while int procs have an RNG element. The efficiency that transient int adds is hard to ignore/pass up.
    I'm quite certain it's not clear cut because there is obviously a mathematical parity of the two stats that at a certain point intellect will be so much, that it will overwhelm the benefit of spirit. But in a hypothetical scenario that the math make intellect from equal to "slightly" or even "modestly" better, a random proc will be extremely unreliable on intellect compared to spirit. Also, "lining up" procs is hard enough as it is on DPS on a Patchwerk where there is always casting, imagine how hard it is to line up something properly in healing. Of course, this is partly subjective since if a healer knows his group 100% and the encounter 100% then there will be some approaching of lining up. But even then we're talking about perfection. Perfection in gameplay in this game can be considered a benchmark but personally, I wouldn't aim for it.

  17. #17
    The point that your missing is with int procs you don't need to line them up when it procs it procs and you get more healing from it, it's not like without the proc people will start to die and even with the proc the plus healing is minor, the mana regen from rapture would also be minor if used with said proc.

    At the end of the day int or spirit procs are just background enchants on a timer and shouldn't really be focused on any more then a static enchant or setbonus well unless you need to do something special like the T11 set bonus of casting penance for spirit.
    Last edited by CoolNitro; 2011-10-12 at 02:39 AM.

  18. #18
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    i use spirit proc enchant on my weapon, because it's cheep and not wasted in any case (i never keep my mana at 100% in combat).
    And i can imagine: "Oh! power torrent procced! quick! heal for me, i'll regen 1k more mana with my lightnings!"
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  19. #19
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    Isn't Spirit-based regen figured out through a formula that also looks at your mana pool?
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  20. #20
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    As a druid, I gain quite a bit of regen due to Intelllect (Replenishment, Revitalize, and Innervate). With HoTs, I can generate quite a bit of extra healing with an Int proc (8 rejuve 2 WG). In addition, using Innervate/spirit trinkets at this time generates a slightly greater amount of mana return then normal.

    As a druid, I enjoy my int proc ^.^
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

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