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  1. #1
    Grunt Thejomp's Avatar
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    Question How do I always manage to get terrible people when making a pug?

    Hello, I just feel i have to write about this somewhere since i'm getting so damned depressed when spending hours to find solid players for a raid and it never ends well.. It's pretty much tier 11 raids, but also tier 12. So any suggestions or comments are welcome, please, what am i doing wrong?
    I'm going through this with detail because i can't find any other way to eplain it.. So i start of as anybody ells, typing about what raid and what kind of roles i need, at first, when i was geared enough to tank these raids i often just typed it very easy, Example; ''LFM BwD 10 MAN - Link Achievement & item lvl - Need 2 tanks 3healers 5dps'' .. etc. This way never helped me tho since i always ended up with idiots, like people linking fake achievements, pvp geared, lack of knowledge. So i i thought i might need to make it abit more clear.. I started adding a little more details into it, to make sure i'm getting the right people Example;'' LFM BwD 10 MAN, - Required: Brain, Knowledge, Experience, Pve Gear, Achievement, - /Whisper: FULL Achievement, Role, Item lvl - Need:1/2 tanks 0/3 healers(druid,shamy,paladin) 0/3 ranged (mage,lock,hunter) 0/2 melee ( DK, Rogue)'' STILL, i'm getting all these people that has no clue what to do, even if they got solid pve gear from bwd,bot tot4w,firelands, I even have to go trough tactics, replacing alot of players. Like 2 weeks ago when it took about 5 HOURS to clear Blackwing decent since i had to replace and go trough everything... and even had nefarian left, so we reached nefarian i assigned pillars like, I tried to make it as clear as possible by moving people into different groups, Example; ''Grp 1 - Red Marked Cross Pillar, Warrior interupts, Grp 2- Green marked triangle pillar, Deathknight interupts, Grp3 - Orange marked pillar, Shaman interupts'' and ofcourse people fails, even ended up with 6 of the raid members on one pillar, and this is just one of many problems i've had.. So it leads to raid disband cause i dont have the time or even bother to continue since were gonna wipe over and over again. After the disband people starts whispering me i'm a bad raid leader, pussy, l2p, p12 and so on.. Yeah, at first i did care. Now i'm like ''whatever'' and making tickets for every single player that's whisper me, even if its just '' bad raid leader '' indeed, it dont lead to a ban or anything, but i just feel that i freakin hate these people that has no respect. So question is, Why do i keep making pugs? Yes, i got a great raiding guild which clears firelands and all that funny stuff, but i still want to help my friends out. Just getting abit fed up and i dont wanna quit the game.
    These days i'm actually trying to stay as far away from pugs as possible, but as i said, My friends needs me and i'm getting bored by standing in stormwind with my fishing pole whole day.
    Ofcourse, i'm giving players a chance, even new people that just got into the game, but pugs are often ment for those whos already done it and knows the drill..

    Thanks for reading.
    If i wasnt clear enough, I'm sorry, My English is abit rusty.

    Peace
    Last edited by Elysia; 2011-10-12 at 06:54 AM. Reason: Changed font/thread title.

  2. #2
    Use armory when you find people. iLvl doesnt matter and you will most likely get fake achives(Got 3 my self when making an alt run to FL).
    Get a TS/VT server.

    That should fix it.

  3. #3
    If that many people are whispering you and telling you that you're a bad raid leader, then maybe you need to work on your leadership abilities. Do you lead your guild runs? If not, pay attention to your raid leader. What does he do when confronted with a situation similar to the ones that you end up with in pugs? What are the pugs saying specifically about your leadership skills? If it is just generalized, "bad leader", then find one of the pugs that seemed to know what they were doing and whisper them. Explain that you're frustrated with all of the wiping and ask that solid pug, what he/she thinks you could have done better. They will probably brush you off with a polite answer, "You did fine, don't worry about them." So ask again, staying polite, until they actually give you feedback on what you could improve.

    Protips for leading pugs:

    1. Don't pug an entire raid. You mentioned that you have friends that you're helping out. Try to make sure that at least 4 people in the pug (including you) are either guildies or friends. That way you're only rolling the dice with 6 people, not 9.
    2. Try to bring a tank or healer that you know/trust. Preferably both. Tanks and healers have very different roles than dps, and have to watch out for different things. If you bring an experienced tank or healer that can help you out it makes a huge difference in the success of the run.
    3. At the start of the raid announce loot rules, and when the bio breaks will be. This will help the run go quickly, and you'll have less random afk's if people know when they will be getting a break.
    4. Don't knit pick over stupid stuff. If someone doesn't have a food buff/flask in BoT/BWD, it doesn't really matter. This stuff is almost stupidly easy now. Don't expect pugs to be min/maxing. If you're leading firelands, provide a cauldron/feast, or make sure each individual player knows they're responsible for their own flasks while you're forming the raid.
    5. Go over key points of strategy before each fight. Specifically touch on things that there are alternate strats for. Example: the twin dragons, do you guys stack on the tank or the tail during black out? When Theralion is on the ground do the range stack on one person or spread out, and collapse on the tank if they get meteored?
    6. If/when you wipe. Watch your language and don't make accusations. Ask what happened if you don't know/can't tell from Recount. If someone made a noob mistake, re-explain why that happened (Remember, if the slime is chasing you, you need to kite it while everyone else kills it. If it touches you, you die). As a raid leader this is the hardest part for me. I want to call them all morons for doing what I JUST told them not to do. You can't call them morons. In fact you have to be very careful of calling them out by name. Keep the statements generalized so they don't feel attacked and defensive. If they feel attacked they're not going to do their best, and they're not going to want to be there.
    7. Don't let there be too many raid leaders. If you have a healer friend helping you out, they're helping you with healing assignments only. Everything else is on you. Don't let other people lead. If someone offers a suggestion on an alternate strategy, either say "That's a good idea, lets do it that way," or "No, lets do it my way first. If that doesn't work maybe." But make sure you address the suggestion so everyone knows what your final decision is, and some of them don't do it one way while the others do it the other way.

  4. #4
    I hate pugs .. honestly ..

    But when I do make a pug I follow simple rules . Rhianne said most of them , but one thing that helps is . . don't actually choose your group using achievments +ilvl .

    I obviously know you have to start with it , but be sure to talk to some key members , I mean really talk , this may sound pretty simple , but you can spot a LOT of bad players simply talking to them about their class . Start a simple conversation with some raiders that join, inspect them and check for the reforges/gems ( You don't wanna see if he has good gear , only to check if he knows his EP values or how to gear himself properly , hit caps etc etc ) .

    This may sound dull , but you may end up spotting some weird players ( high ilvl and no brains ) some players that are joining your pug while leaving another failed pug ( The usual " You all suck /leave" ) . You don't need to talk to everyone obivoulsy , but making sure that key players and the majority of the pug is made of good players, and not entitled children.

    You want to check for real things that make a raider good , and not only the ilvl achievment. You won't imagine how many ppl I'v spotted that are there wasting our time by just starting a conversation about the tactics .

    It's best to loose some minutes at the start , that to just end up with a weird group .

  5. #5
    Holy mother of god. I'm assuming your keyboard has an enter key. You might want to utilize it. Paragraphs are your friend.

    Anyhoo, back on-topic: always recruit from your guild first, then fill in the gaps with Puggers. Reducing the number of puggers will reduce the chances of fail. I know that's not always possible, but it's worked out pretty well for me.

    Mod edit: For future reference, posting just to nitpick over another user's spelling/grammar/punctuation is against the guidelines.
    Last edited by Elysia; 2011-10-12 at 06:51 AM.

  6. #6
    If you just want a good way to check people before you raid with them, use Armory. However, don't look for just item level and the acheive that practically everyone has now that the nerfs have hit tier 12. Look at what they have done to better their character for raiding. Professions maxed out and used fully (engi tinkers, BS sockets, ring enchants, etc.)? Have they bothered to pick up some of the 365 gear from molten front, elemental bonds quests, etc. Are they at least trying to get some of their valor gear, either farming zandoms or raid kills? On an even more basic level, are they gemmed and enchanted with some semblance of correctness?

    The extra effort does take time, I won't lie about that. But from my experience, its worth it. Finding a group of people who actually care about their performance in a pug is tough, but you'll be glad if you manage it.

    Last bit of advice, no matter how tempting it is, don't take people who are significantly more experienced than you are. If you have killed Rag on normal, its fine to pick up a few who have downed shannox on heroic, but don't take someone who is 7/7 heroic modes. This really does sound counterintuitive, but you really don't want someone spending the whole raid telling you how things should be done while you're trying to lead. You also don't want someone who's going to slack off the entire time because "this stuff is all easy mode now. Why haven't you killed it yet?". It does happen, and it will lead to pugs disintegrating.

  7. #7
    Stood in the Fire chaddd's Avatar
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    Possibly with the tier gear going back into raids only you can ask that each person have @ least 1 tier item for your PUG... then you know its not VP bought epics. Alternatively there will be the LFR system and we can hope that it won't flop.

  8. #8
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    I am sure it has to do with the font you chose...and the lack of use of the enter key.

    And before you think I am trolling you - indeed people have been warned to use the default forum font and color and not try and be funky and special.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  9. #9
    Scarab Lord Gandrake's Avatar
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    you could make your own guild, then you wouldn't have to worry as much about stupid people.

    but it comes with a lot of responsibility, cant just let every tom dick and harry in. you're going to have to make sure they meet your qualifications.

    Not everyone knows what to do in every role just because they've completed the instance though. I mean just look at all the groups that still fail at Nefarian even though everyone linked their achievement
    grandpa died the other day and a dumb fat fuck jumped out in front of a dump truck when i be like "man im hungry, im gonna get some pizza". go to my pops' funeral, tired as fuck. get in some b-ball, broke my friends nose on accident. get home at 7:50 PM, taking mini naps, about to pass out... but gotta slay dem dragons. dat second wind

    true story, just another day in the life yo

  10. #10
    I have been running a 10m weekly FL pug group on my server for about 4 weeks. And while it is def hard to get a great group going especially if you are not known, you can easily carry a group with a good core. And by that I mean you should not pug at least 1 tank/healer/dps. Having one of each will save your group a lot of time and will also help with explaining fights. In my group my core is Myself (Prot Warrior), Disc Priest, Ele Shaman, and Enh Shaman.

    With that core the first week we went 2/7 and that was the week right before the nerfs. One shotting Shannox and after some rearranging killing Beth and Baleroc, we also picked up a resto druid, druid tank, and holy paladin to the core from just that pug group; this also in turn let our disc priest go shadow as that was his MS. The next 3 weeks we went 4/7, 6/7, 5/7. Mind you we are only going one night a week for roughly 2-3 hours depending on how quickly to find the rest of the group.

    We still fill in those empty spots with pugs because we have not found anyone coherent enough to take up those 3 spots but 7 of us do a pretty good job of carrying those 3 spots.

    Also what Kurizor said is very true, those folks that are highly progressed can hurt your raid. One way is them trying to push to hard, degrading the pugs, trying to change strats.

    You are just going to have to realize that it may take you one week or one month to get a good group going. And as long as you can find some good decent folks to learn that are willing to teach (Holy Paladin and Tank Druid in my group) then you can make your own successful weekly group.

    Also when looking at pugs gear it is good to use armory to look at gear/gems/enchants. I can always tell how a person will play by looking at gems and enchants to see how lazy or how much of a go getter that person is. Mr Robot is something I have also started using to help even more. But those both depend on the pug logging out in the correct gear.
    Last edited by preastlake; 2011-10-11 at 06:11 PM. Reason: Grammer and Armory

  11. #11
    Grunt Thejomp's Avatar
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    Thanks alot for all the comments, feels like this will lead to better times, deeply appreciate it
    And why i havnt been looking at armory before is just silly, why havnt i thought of that ? anyways, i've read everything now and their probably wont be any problems in the future, Hopefully alot smoother runs Thanks guys

  12. #12
    The Lightbringer
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    I routinely lead 7 / 7 FL pugs and I've done the same with the other raids.

    Some tips.

    1) Look at the player's name. Are there weird symbols? Most likely skip them. Do they have a dumb name like "Healztanx" or "Ihealzu" or "Pwnzorzalliance" or "Orcsmasher," you get the idea? DEFINITELY SKIP THEM.

    2) Look at their gear. Are they hit capped? Are they properly itemized? A quick elitistjerks check on a class you are unfamiliar with can help to see if they are geared correctly. If it's a tank, and they are reforging for hit or expertise? Feel free to taunt them before you fail to invite them.

    3) Inspect anyone. A couple pieces of pvp gear is fine. All pvp gear and 353 gear? Pass.

    4) Definitely take alts of experienced raiders. These will be your bread and butter. These are the people you want. Pugging BWD and a 355 shadow priest with 0 achieve but 6 / 6 normal and 5 / 6 heroic on main? Take him. I actively court alts of experienced raiders when forming my pugs. I want them above everyone else.

    5) Do not do the easier boss first. In BWD, all the bosses are easy so this isn't valid advice. In FL, do not do Shannox first. Do Rhyolith first. Hell, do Alysrazor first. This will let you know if the group is capable of downing bosses that aren't Shannox.

    6) Be an experienced, knowledgable player. I have many 85s of varying gear levels and I've cleared 7 / 7 FL on three of them (prot / fury warrior, holy paladin, resto / feral druid). I know most of the roles and I know what needs to be done. I know what specs I need for particular fights and I will get them even if takes me over an hour to fill the raid. I know the boss strategies, I know what to tell people to do, and so on.

  13. #13
    Grunt Thejomp's Avatar
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    I like the way you think, i've gotten so much advice from making this thread so i will probably clear everything very easy after reset. I'll keep your tips in mind when finding players, thanks man.

    By the way, is their any addon that makes you able to quickly see if they got BwD full achievement, or what kind of item lvl they have? If so, it would be wonderful if you linked or just gave me the name

    Again, thanks alot!

  14. #14
    Epic! Peyj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkforCalde View Post
    4) Definitely take alts of experienced raiders. These will be your bread and butter. These are the people you want. Pugging BWD and a 355 shadow priest with 0 achieve but 6 / 6 normal and 5 / 6 heroic on main? Take him. I actively court alts of experienced raiders when forming my pugs. I want them above everyone else.
    I wish more people had this attitude.
    I tried to get into a BH run on my alt. She plays the same role as my main (melee DPS). I have appropriate gear for BH. I whispered the guy looking for people with my main's achievement. (Main also has all other PVE content for Cata cleared).

    No invite.

    I could vaguely understand it if I was trying to play a different role, but I specifically state "Here is the achievement from my main, also plays as Melee DPS".

  15. #15
    To be honest ive noticed a trend with pug leaders , i know from experience when they put in there trade comment ;

    LFM BOT /w ilvl and ach. Have brain......etc

    ...that they are dicks. they always come across as some sort of elitist knob. I will put money on the problem being you and not the puggers!!!

  16. #16
    People oughta stop using iLevel and Achievements as a gauge for wether or not a player should join a pug. If I'm leading a raid, I check each and every person carefully MYSELF, and I ask them a few crucial questions.

    Getting the right people is really easy. You just have to be willing to put in the work. Gearscore/iLevel and Achievements made raid leaders lazy.

    Oh and writing "Have brain" makes you look like an asshole who is lacking on yourself. Don't do that.
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Q: But who are the forum QQers going to QQ at now?
    A: They'll find another name and still miss the point that Blizzard designs as a collective.

  17. #17
    TL;DR - I'd say because we have a tendency to remember the bad times rather than the good

  18. #18
    The Patient
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    I don't bother asking for achievements, I just ask for experience along with ilvl. Then I have armory open on my second monitor and I'll often do a quick scan of their gear. Most people will link me their achievement anyways, which helps but it doesn't take but a second to type in their name and get to their specific armory to make a glance at it.

    You will almost always still get someone that really shouldn't be there, but hopefully the others can carry them a bit. My latest PuG last saturday had a Resto Druid pulling 12k+ hps and a Resto Shaman and Holy Priest both doing 6k hps each. They were both geared enough to do 10k hps easy, but they were just bad and the Druid had a hell of a time carrying them through Nefarian. I even gave the Priest the easiest job, heal me (370 prot pally) on the adds in p3 and somehow HE would still die and I'd tank the adds for as long as I could often swinging by the raid to get raid heals from the other 2 healers.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Peyj View Post
    I wish more people had this attitude.
    I tried to get into a BH run on my alt. She plays the same role as my main (melee DPS). I have appropriate gear for BH. I whispered the guy looking for people with my main's achievement. (Main also has all other PVE content for Cata cleared).

    No invite.

    I could vaguely understand it if I was trying to play a different role, but I specifically state "Here is the achievement from my main, also plays as Melee DPS".
    This so hard. My main is 6/7 heroic FL pre-nerf, downed heroic cho'gall and got sinestra to 3% so it seems ridiculous that my 356 alt with proper gems and enchants can't get into normal BoT or BWD

  20. #20
    your thread asks a question, but your post answers it so I am just going to assume this is a rant....

    I can understand linking fake achievements if its an alt, but if its one in pvp gear or armory shows no info I would have to blow the whistle on that guy.

    This so hard. My main is 6/7 heroic FL pre-nerf, downed heroic cho'gall and got sinestra to 3% so it seems ridiculous that my 356 alt with proper gems and enchants can't get into normal BoT or BWD
    yeah, exactly; same here. Used to when I was on my alt and my guild was #1 (#2 now /tear) and I got asked to link achieve I would link my guild tag and say "my guild is all the achieves you need" and I usually got an invite. Now, I have to have an alt in 378 gear to pull that trick but that isnt happening anytime soon. Not because of my character being so under geared but its because I dont trust pugging this cata raid dungeons like I used too.

    Like the OP said, bosses like Nef will break a pug in seconds now unlike last expac. You could babysit stupid in Wrath, but here in Cata, just one stupid will wipe a 25man these days.

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