[Ele] 4.3 PTR T12 2P nerf.

[Eein]

The fact is that this is what the set bonus should have been all along. It was intentionally a ridiculous single-target DPS increase because Elemental was behind. We should now be expecting some form of single-target buff, but it is getting a bit on my nerves that it takes 6-8 months to fix obvious issues when they arise.

Along with that is the fact they do make 'decent' changes LONG after new content has been released, leaving shamans on the competitive bench.
If we had our CL + EQ buff and no changes to fire ele at the beginning of the tier, ele would have seen alot more raiding competitively. (imo anyways)

[Deleted]

Elemental does need to do more damage (on any fight that is Alysrazor and everything else anyways >.>)

fixed it for the sake that this is the shaman forum.

[tusker]

I am sorry but did you read anything above your post, nobody says blizzards hates shamans, they just that we had a good time and now its gone if this sticks (which is what this forum is about? Discussion.) Then we are getting nerfed because they didn't calculate the effectiveness of the current 2 part bonus. Nobody even myself didn't say F**k you shamans, I just don't understand how you can play a shaman and enjoy these changes, I said but why hurt elemental this much when we where happy. Which has gone from being very strong in single target dps to well rubbish if fire ele gets destroyed. What I am confused about is, that you play a shaman, and, your happy with the fact that instead of fixing underlying issues about fire elemental, ele shamans just get a nerfed because there tier bonus fixed this issue. How can any elemental shaman be happy with this. It basically says we are not giving you a permanent fire elemental (because it is to much effort, thats how I see it,) and we are also going to gimp your single target dps.

My take on his post just meant he's happy to see them more or less axing T12 2-set, which is bad yes (DPS loss), but good because it shouldn't be a crutch. We don't want to have to rely on an old set bonus to be good. We DO want them to improve on our spec in some way, though, I think we can all agree on that. We'll just have to wait and see. Personally, I just hope they don't wait until 2-3 months into 4.3 to realize "oh wait, without T12 2set, elemental is low again."

[SpaceJam]

Well with the buffs to Fire Mages and melee damage overall. I believe we can expect to see a fair buff to single target damage for ele. I don't know how they'll do it, but there is no way any tier piece will become baseline ever. For some reason Blizzard likes to balance class based off tier bonuses in PvE. Makes absolutely no sense, but that is the way of the things.

[Gistwiki]

fixed it for the sake that this is the shaman forum.

LIES AND SLANDER. And how would the fixed version have anything to do with what I was quoting?

[Deleted]

LIES AND SLANDER. And how would the fixed version have anything to do with what I was quoting?

Your quote was indeed the truth, I was more pointing out that it felt a bit pointless discussing reasonably given fire mage buffs on the shaman forum. and also because it was an easy quote to make a "fixed" for, apologies :P

[Deleted]

We will use 2t12+2t13 with fire elemental glyph. It will be straight nerf, we will lose of lava burst glyph and uptime of FE will be lower. It doesn't solve the problem, it just makes us worse.

[Ktz385]

This two-piece needed to be changed. Ele shaman is honestly one of the strongest dps specs at the moment because of this two-piece, and it's just a bad mechanic to make so much of your damage be passive. In addition, if you truly want to maximize dps with Fire ele, you need to pray the cd gets reset at good times so you can re-summon it with cds/short duration buffs up, so in that sense you're relying on pure RNG for MAXIMUM output, while even with poor RNG our damage is higher than that of other classes with more of it being passive. Someone earlier in the thread called it a crutch, and that's exactly what it is. Any design in the game that simply makes your dps passive lowers the distinction between good players and great players.

Agreed that there needs to be a SLIGHT dps increase elsewhere to keep Elemental in a good spot, but it shouldn't be where it is now, where it's simply above almost every other dps spec because of a set bonus that's poorly designed and never should have been implemented.

Edit: As to where that buff would occur, the reason they implemented talent specializations and Mastery in cataclysm was exactly for this, to make it easier to fine tune specs. A straight increase to any spell would also be a buff to enhancement, which I honestly wouldn't mind, but if they don't fix the bug on ptr where FT is ignoring icd, they'd be encouraging FT/FT even more by buffing spells.

I was thinking perhaps a slight buff to fulmination, but while Ele isn't the strongest spec in the game in pvp, no spec should have the burst potential ele would have with a fulm buff. It would be worse than AP/POM/Pyro mages were.


Again I want to emphasize that the buff needs to be a small one. Ele damage is over the top right now, and I'm saying that as a shaman. I'd prefer to be middle of the pack and working hard for my damage and being satisfied rather than knowing I just play a spec with a ridiculous cheese like the two-piece bonus.

[Mr.Pineapple]

according to my napkin math (unfortunatly i'm lazy and my napkin doesn't have a USB port) the trigger would have to reduce the cool down by ~6.5 seconds to ensure ~100% uptime while glyphed. this makes sense while we are gearing up during T13 and doing progression where having fire ele every fight was a good thing before too. what sucks is choosing between 4pc t13 and 2pc t12, the gimp still is going to be worth it, even at the current values. (C/o Bink above). i'll agree/admit that i was out preforming my gear a bit, and the bonus was a BIT op. but...

Dear Blizz, here are your options: either
a) get rid of the bonus/nerf it even more, (and leave us all to roll resto) so that the die hards can get their 4pc with peice of mind.
a2) give 4pc13 some sort of buff that at least spans the gap and makes the choice a bit easier, even if it doesn't make up the difference of the old bonus.
b) give us a '"perma" fire ele' in some form or other (ie reduced cd procs, reset triggers, etc), as the past 4 months have indicated this has made us very competitive despite the fact there is still countless problems with the fire ele standing around like a lump or dieing instantly etc.
c) buff the FTW for eles-only by an extra 7-10% (very rough non-USB napkin math) to at least give us a chance. which, as bink said, would still leaves 2pc12 better than 4pc13
d) get creative, blizz continues to surprise us every patch and i'd love to see something new and rediculous that brings back some balance. (my personal favorite option)
e) something else i missed, its early in the morning and my brain doesn't have an 'insert-coffee-beans-here' port.

i know personally, if i have to spend another 6 months at the bottom of (most of) the charts just because i play a gimped class, then blizzard is not living up to its moto of "bring the player, not the class" and i will be rerolling resto, and making something else i play my main. likely my druid so picking a new non-nerfed spec has more doors. good thing feral is actually fun now (JOHN FUCKING MADDEN is dead tho, almost).

re:d) creative idea 1) 4pc13: whenever your searing totem hits a target affected by flameshock, your next N does M% more damage lasting ~10 sec, this stacks up to P times. where f(n,m,p)= just under what a fire ele could do, since it WAS a bit over powered. the gap should be more than exceeded by the stats on gear. as well as the nerf to the currest 2pc12

[Eggwolls]

I hope we get a single target buff as well, like many others have predicted should be coming, but I've also seen shaman sit around waiting for a buff and get them a little too late into content. ): I just hope this doesn't happen this time. My raid team already makes fun of me for being a shaman. "DO MORE DPS." vs. 3 hunters, 2 mages (one with legendary). /facepalm

I AM glad I won't have to stick with t12 2set. You know set bonus balance isn't right when you have to do that.

---------- Post added 2011-10-13 at 05:20 PM ----------

i know personally, if i have to spend another 6 months at the bottom of (most of) the charts just because i play a gimped class, then blizzard is not living up to its moto of "bring the player, not the class" and i will be rerolling resto, and making something else i play my main. likely my druid so picking a new non-nerfed spec has more doors. good thing feral is actually fun now (JOHN FUCKING MADDEN is dead tho, almost).

More than likely, I will see if I can go back enh, depending on how much better enh is doing than ele and if my raid needs melee. If I am forced to heal AGAIN... I don't know. I may just quit the game. /:

[Wunhunglo]

This two-piece needed to be changed. Ele shaman is honestly one of the strongest dps specs at the moment because of this two-piece, and it's just a bad mechanic to make so much of your damage be passive. In addition, if you truly want to maximize dps with Fire ele, you need to pray the cd gets reset at good times so you can re-summon it with cds/short duration buffs up, so in that sense you're relying on pure RNG for MAXIMUM output, while even with poor RNG our damage is higher than that of other classes with more of it being passive. Someone earlier in the thread called it a crutch, and that's exactly what it is. Any design in the game that simply makes your dps passive lowers the distinction between good players and great players.

Agreed that there needs to be a SLIGHT dps increase elsewhere to keep Elemental in a good spot, but it shouldn't be where it is now, where it's simply above almost every other dps spec because of a set bonus that's poorly designed and never should have been implemented.

Edit: As to where that buff would occur, the reason they implemented talent specializations and Mastery in cataclysm was exactly for this, to make it easier to fine tune specs. A straight increase to any spell would also be a buff to enhancement, which I honestly wouldn't mind, but if they don't fix the bug on ptr where FT is ignoring icd, they'd be encouraging FT/FT even more by buffing spells.

I was thinking perhaps a slight buff to fulmination, but while Ele isn't the strongest spec in the game in pvp, no spec should have the burst potential ele would have with a fulm buff. It would be worse than AP/POM/Pyro mages were.


Again I want to emphasize that the buff needs to be a small one. Ele damage is over the top right now, and I'm saying that as a shaman. I'd prefer to be middle of the pack and working hard for my damage and being satisfied rather than knowing I just play a spec with a ridiculous cheese like the two-piece bonus.

What data are you looking at to figure we are over the top? Raidbots does not agree with you. H 25 we are ranked 9th overall.

[navcite]

i could be wrong but i dont understand how u say ele is Op over any other class SP's and mages always beat me in dps unless they have to soak aka baleroc plus i have a lock that beats me also provided he does have the legendary staff

[Spongy]

I never said I enjoy these changes. I suggested it, WITH a commensurate buff to ensure no loss to DPS, both when they did the big feedback thread and again shortly after the PTR went live; if they didn't change the Tier 12 2-piece OR provide a permanent pet, we were going to end up using two pieces of Tier 12 for all of 4.3. I didn't like that, hence my comments.

We definitely need some buffs to make up the loss, between this and the Flametongue nerf (which is better, mechanically, in the long run, but is going to hurt is in the short term). I never said otherwise. I just said to keep the criticism constructive.

And no, the posts before the warning weren't that bad. If they had been, I'd have infracted them AND put out a warning. It's a preventative measure. Feel free to talk about how bad the change is for us. Saying Blizzard sucks/is incompetent/hates Shaman or other similar trolling will, as always, be infracted.

What I myself find painful is that you don't enjoy these changes do you not? So why are you defending them? Do you constantly say to people who post, that people who mention current fire ele or current issues they will get banned, because they say shaman is sucky? Last time I checked, No you don't.
I am going to try and structure this as best as I can.
1. Who actually enjoys the tier 12 2 peice nerf.
2. Who enjoys doing less dps than ANY OTHER VIABLE RAID SPELL CASTER, unless fire elemental hits its correct target.
3. Who is currently enjoying the ability to redo a fire elemental when it bugs out because of the re ability to reuse it (because of current tier.)
4. Go to BH/Baelroc (not crystal job,) ( I don't care that your BIS gear with every possible epic known to man,) what dps can you pull without timing your fire elemental correctly.

Also finally people who say that you have to time your cds with fire eles etc blah blah, OFC we do its all about the MIN/MAX why would we try to pull the min we can?
So if we count dps without say fire ELE we are by far the lowest key word VIABLE spell caster dps. We can still compete just below average.

Losing a almost constant fire ele is a Huge lost. How can you be happy with this?

[Radux]

Losing a almost constant fire ele is a Huge lost. How can you be happy with this?

The initial warning was there are on purpose. Just because a change/nerf sucks doesn't mean we want to turn the forum into a big QQ/bitch fest.

If Endus hadn't reminded people to keep their comments within reason, Syronius or myself would have -- our view on the subject has nothing to do with a Mod's responsibility to keep threads under control. What Endus did was called being proactive.

[Spongy]

The initial warning was there are on purpose. Just because a change/nerf sucks doesn't mean we want to turn the forum into a big QQ/bitch fest.

If Endus hadn't reminded people to keep their comments within reason, Syronius or myself would have -- our view on the subject has nothing to do with a Mod's responsibility to keep threads under control. What Endus did was called being proactive.

Upcoming/changes nerfs which is understandable, he wants the post to stay on track. Yeah sure but is this not a discussion about current changes? Although it wasn't off track at the time or others where. There was no hate towards blizzard and the shaman class expected for a small minority. I just Clearly said how can you be happy with a single target nerf," when atm there is no boost to our single target dps?

Are you Currently happy with what has been changed? This is all I generally want mods to answer. Without fire ele are you happy with fire ele dps?

[Ize]

On the one hand im happy for this, having to relay so much on the dodgy AI of the fire elemental plus lining it up with short term buffs so that it makes up a substantial part of my dps is just a bit too rng for my liking. Especially annoying when it starts on CD after a wipe and you cant line it up at the only time it always seems possible to do so.
On the other hand, in our current state combined with the FTW short term nerf I have to seriously hope for some love soon on the PTRs, tho I seriously cant think of a solution which isnt just buffing numbers and co-efficients which has impacts on Enh & Resto and PvP as well....

[Radux]

No. Nerfs are never fun. No one likes being nerfed.

However, the set bonus was way too strong and needed to be toned down. As someone else pointed out in the thread, this probably should've been the original T12 2 piece.

That said, I agree that a little boost in personal dps would be nice. However, even with the loss of a full time FE, I don't think we'll have absolutely devastating drops on overall dps (if you consider overall stat gain with T13 and the 2+4 piece set bonus).

[navcite]

No. Nerfs are never fun. No one likes being nerfed.

However, the set bonus was way too strong and needed to be toned down. As someone else pointed out in the thread, this probably should've been the original T12 2 piece.

That said, I agree that a little boost in personal dps would be nice. However, even with the loss of a full time FE, I don't think we'll have absolutely devastating drops on overall dps (if you consider overall stat gain with T13 and the 2+4 piece set bonus).

thats pretty much what i am thinking once we get out of T12 armor and into T13 we should be alright

pretty much to base numbers on the ptr in the current gear is a waste of time IMO

[Njtobknets]

To everyone saying it was too strong, how exactly was it too strong? Judging from my own guild, and three of the top guilds on the server, everyone being pretty much equal gear, the ele shaman is bottom to middle on dps.

[Deleted]

Item - Shaman T12 Elemental 2P Bonus - Your damaging spells have a 30% chance to reduce the remaining cooldown on your Fire Elemental Totem by 4 sec.
(MMMO-Champ datamines, frontpage).

Yet we still haven't seen any compensation like we did with the Balance Druid T11 4P nerf. I know it's the PTR, but Ele would just be ruined in terms of viability if we don't get a buff to compensate for this.

Opinions?

My opinion is to just calm down - look at the T10 2set bonus for elemental - http://www.wowhead.com/item=51235 - thats now a talent and the set bonus used to be about 3 secs off ele mastery before it got changed to 1 sec so just be patient as by if they're doing this change to that set bonus its gonna be a talent after 4.3 in maybe 4.4 or 4.5