PTR changes for elemental raising a question.

[Chrome Dragon]

There is already a post about the nerf to the T12 elemental 2 piece but that is only partially what this is about. With this change,

Tier 12
Item - Shaman T12 Elemental 2P Bonus's tooltip was clarified with values: Your damaging spells have a 30% chance to reduce the remaining cooldown on your Fire Elemental Totem by 4 sec.

and the change to Flametongue Weapon on the PTR which is a nerf from what I have been reading would droping the talents in enhancment and going for increased totem up time pull ahead? With the glyph and the set bonus as it stands on the PTR currently it would make fire ele totem full time again (basically) but we lose out on improved shields (which so far I see as the biggest issue), instant ghost wolf (which hurts but getting the mastery boot enchant is already what most elemental shamans do which comes with movement speed and we can spam lightning bolt on the move which makes getting from point A to point B no longer a dps loss), and we lose increased flametongue (which is being changed). I am just curious if all the changes go live as they stand now if it is actually worth looking into.

[Deleted]

I dont have t12 2piece bonus yet, but I might get the Fire Ele glyph to compensate. Most fights last around 5-7mins so, ideally, I should have maximum output from both of them. Problem is, I'll lose 4% LB damage which I do not like (currently having LB glyph instead of LvB ) - I will not go into resto. Elemental Shields and Flametongue talent in enhancement are of far greater worth than a few seconds increased duration on totems imo.

[Chrome Dragon]

Currently from what I have been reading dropping a glyph for fire ele and the change to the 2 piece it is still a DPS increase even though it will not be up full time. That is why I was curious about this since it would be a DPS increase since it is more likely to have a full uptime again but that is why I posted on here. I figured someone with a bit more knowledge with numbers would be able to enlighten me.

[Deleted]

and the change to Flametongue Weapon on the PTR which is a nerf from what I have been reading

From what I've deducted, the FTW change is actually buff at higher spell power levels, since it actually scales rather than giving a flat spell power boost.

(which hurts but getting the mastery boot enchant is already what most elemental shamans do which comes with movement speed and we can spam lightning bolt on the move which makes getting from point A to point B no longer a dps loss)

If with "which comes with movement speed" you mean the Lavawalker enchant? Most people (or rather the clever ones) will go with Ancestral Swiftness, making the enchant obsolete. And personally, I'll probably be spending the last couple of talents in the Enhancement tree.

[Chrome Dragon]

Yes i was talking about the Lavawalker enchant and I am currently speced into ancestral swiftness. I was just stating that the movement speed does not stack and from what I understand it is still the best boot enchant so it would be a tiny lose of speed if we skip out on that.

It is nice to see that people are seeing FTW change as a buff, though I am not sure since it does not effect our totems anymore like it used too which is depressing.

Also on the PTR I am noticing that the changed 2 piece can proc off every chain lightning hit and earthquake tick. With enough AoE I got my fire ele cool down reset in less then 2 minutes which kind of surprised me.

[Deleted]

Lavawalker does give 15 less rating than the Mastery or Haste enchants, which combined with AS proves superior, at least in movement fights.

[Lucetia]

and the change to Flametongue Weapon on the PTR which is a nerf from what I have been reading

Not quite sure how it would be a nerf. Instead of getting say 700 spell damage you are getting a flat 5% damage buff overall. This will scale nicely as you accumulate more spell power, including any procs of the sort. The only glyph I could possibly see worth dropping would be Flame Shock by 50%, as that one and Lightning Bolt sim out higher and Lightning Bolt on the move is, in my opinion, irreplaceable.

Ancestral Swiftness vs Boot Enchant, again in my opinion, is really no contest. They don't stack, you can get higher stat ratings from an enchant plus instant ghost wolf in case you need to travel a big distance is nice.

The flametongue talent gives you 40% equating to a 7% damage boost rather than 5% damage boost and 15% Lightning Shield damage via Earth Shock is rather nice. So I'm not seeing how 2% damage boost + 15% extra damage from Earth Shock, movement speed buff, and either +15 mastery or 50 haste is less than the extended Fire Elemental. If perhaps the elemental was smarter it could help, but the elemental not swapping to adds, sometimes takes a few to actually start hitting the target, etc.

[Endus]

Not quite sure how it would be a nerf. Instead of getting say 700 spell damage you are getting a flat 5% damage buff overall. This will scale nicely as you accumulate more spell power, including any procs of the sort. The only glyph I could possibly see worth dropping would be Flame Shock by 50%, as that one and Lightning Bolt sim out higher and Lightning Bolt on the move is, in my opinion, irreplaceable.

It scales, and the current version doesn't, but it's starting that scaling at a lower point, ergo it's a nerf at gear levels we're dealing with. We won't be reaching the spellpower needed to make it a buff in this expansion, and next expansion, we'd have gotten a more powerful FTW anyway at a higher level.

This is a bit crude, but here's the scaling for Spellpower in current T12 BiS and T11 BiS;
T12: 2.6766 damage per point of SP
T11: 2.6452 damage per point of SP

I'm using two separate gear levels because I want to be clear that I'm not using a number that's going to change by a whopping amount in T13, and these two gear levels because those are the ones simulationcraft still has default profiles for (and I'm looking for a quick analysis). We'll round it to 2.65 DPS per point, which if anything is going to make the gap I'm about to show smaller; I'm erring on the side of caution and the gap is likely larger than I'm about to show.

Now, if we extrapolate this amount to the 1150 spellpower Flametongue Weapon provides, we get 3047.5 DPS. That's the bar the new FTW has to meet. The above T12 comparison, for instance, was parsing at 36,946 DPS, and if I tweak the profile to be Windfury Weapon instead, it's at 34,158 DPS, 2788 DPS off. So we're closish, which is all I wanted.

Now, if we look at that 34,158 DPS, what's 7% more? 36,549 DPS. ~400 under where we're at now. Assuming it applies to all damage done (don't have time to jump onto the PTR to check if it affects FE and Searing Totem damage right this second, but if anything wasn't boosted, it'd be those two).

So yes, it's a nerf. One we'll scale out of, possibly in Tier 13, but possibly not.

[Paf]

T12: 2.6766 damage per point of SP

Now, if we extrapolate this amount to the 1150 spellpower Flametongue Weapon provides, we get 3047.5 DPS. That's the bar the new FTW has to meet. The above T12 comparison, for instance, was parsing at 36,946 DPS, and if I tweak the profile to be Windfury Weapon instead, it's at 34,158 DPS, 2788 DPS off. So we're closish, which is all I wanted.

To be clear, Flametongue Weapon is only 1045.8 spellpower, not 1150. Which would put the rough dps value based on the tier 12 numbers at 2799 dps (which would be in line with the loss established by the sim).

That being said, the gap you have established is 397 dps. To bridge this, we would need to see a natural dps increase of 5671 dps over the course of tier 13. For a clear comparison, we'll do what you did above with spellpower.

T12: 36,946 dps BiS(?)
T11: 26,962 dps BiS (source: elitist jerks)

[Deleted]

FTW nerf is a kick in the but, but Like people say, we'll scale out of it.

Considering to respec with the 2pc T12 into long lasting totems; I'm not really statisfied losing my imp, shields and instant Ghostwolf (god I love this talent as Ele). I also don't like it that almost 20% of my dmg comes from my FE, so I hate it when it get's destroyed or it's standing there doing nothing. I like to be able to redrop it if needed.
So considering these facts, I'm not sure if I'm going to spec this deep into the resto tree for longer totem uptime.

Next to that, it's early PTR, things can change (I hope), so my money is going to be on an other buff to shamanism or something.
So let us sit back and wait till further updates

[Weerra]

There are still 3 free points after getting the longer totems http://www.wowhead.com/talent#hhGzGRfkzGoZbhb. IDK on what to spend them - imbue or shield talents.

[Endus]

To be clear, Flametongue Weapon is only 1045.8 spellpower, not 1150. Which would put the rough dps value based on the tier 12 numbers at 2799 dps (which would be in line with the loss established by the sim).

That being said, the gap you have established is 397 dps. To bridge this, we would need to see a natural dps increase of 5671 dps over the course of tier 13. For a clear comparison, we'll do what you did above with spellpower.

T12: 36,946 dps BiS(?)
T11: 26,962 dps BiS (source: elitist jerks)

Whoops, yeah, I was just running the numbers off my head and I guess I misremembered the FT buff amount.

Anyway, my point was it's a nerf in current gear, and likely a nerf in normal T13 gear, but possibly we'll catch up and MAYBE surpass the old Flametongue in heroic T13 gear. And then we'll be into a new expansion, where we'd get a new rank of Flametongue anyway.

I'm just saying it's not really a buff. It make eke out a small advantage in BiS gear, but it'll be a nerf at other gear levels. This is all part and parcel of me saying Elemental needs a bit of a damage boost somewhere.

[Radux]

And then we'll be into a new expansion, where we'd get a new rank of Flametongue anyway.

Ranks don't exist anymore, if you will recall. If, by your math/estimates are true -- being a nerf now and won't be later -- there wouldn't be a need for a new rank regardless.

[Endus]

Ranks don't exist anymore, if you will recall. If, by your math/estimates are true -- being a nerf now and won't be later -- there wouldn't be a need for a new rank regardless.

True, but the abilities do scale up with level, which was what I meant, I was just using the older term as a reference point. We wouldn't need to train a new rank, but it would be giving more Spellpower at 90 than it does at 85.

[Grym]

Ranks don't exist anymore, if you will recall. If, by your math/estimates are true -- being a nerf now and won't be later -- there wouldn't be a need for a new rank regardless.

FTW at 80 didn't give 1047 spell power, so they still scales with level, just you don't train them anymore.

[Radux]

FTW at 80 didn't give 1047 spell power, so they still scales with level, just you don't train them anymore.

Right. I understand that it scales with level. However, the new FTW actually scales better than the old (current) model. Once you hit 85 (now), you have the best use out of FTW as you can get, compared to being able to get more and more use out of it as you get better gear.

[Weerra]

We can't know if the new FTW would scale with level better or worse than the old - we don't know how much spellpower and damage we would have on 90.
New FTW scales with gear, something that old didn't do.