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  1. #21
    Discipline has 15% more Intellect, true, Afflictid. But Intellect is actually really bad when it comes to giving you crit percentages. They have 10% from Renewed Hope, Holy has 10% from Chakra (Serenity). Now Holy has a 100% uptime on the corresponding Holy Word, Holy Priests have an additional 25% crit that Discipline just doesn't have.

    And as for the healing on burst recovery, Serendipity actually outweighs two Greaters both in numerical output, as well as "efficient" output (assuming you can manage your overheal), because unlike Train of Thought, Holy doesn't actually have benefits to Greater Heal that make it "ultra-efficient" as a standalone spell. And no, you can't "count on crit to keep a tank alive", but the fact is you NEVER top a tank off (unless he's a Blood Death Knight), because a Shaman's Riptide, Druid's Lifebloom/Rejuv, your own Renew, offtank's Word of Glory, etc etc etc will always come into play. If you aren't trying to keep your tank in the 85% zone, you're really pushing too hard.

    "Man this 15k heal is totally going to keep tanks alive because it is on a shorter cooldown and gives an increased chance to crit."
    You know, people say the same thing about Penance. And yet, how many people actually glyph it? It's not the fact that Serenity alone will keep a tank alive. But the fact that you are critting more often, thus giving you bigger Echoes as well, your Renew is critting more often (and never falling off), you can take advantage of your crits to push that tank to 95% instead of 90, and have a bigger buffer before NEXT BIG HIT INCOMING.

    The only time where I would recommend against ever trying Holy Tank healing is if you get yourself in a situation where you're healing a Blood Death Knight. Because, at least from my personal experience, everything just lines up perfectly between deathstrikes. Or at least, I found myself in perfect sync with him, but that's anecdotal and nothing more.

    Your clock analogy is slightly off. Discipline is no Atomic Clock (which does run dry, and need to be maintained consistently or it's off. There's a reason why it constantly resyncs). Discipline's the Digital Wrist Watch. You can take it with you wherever you go. It's quieter than your Grandfather clock when it goes off, but does its job quite well. It's also easier to read at just a glance (to this day, I have trouble telling time). Holy is loud, you notice when Holy stops working a lot sooner than when Discipline does. You notice when Holy's working harder than when Discipline is, as well. But for the sake of telling you what time it is? Both do their job.
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  2. #22
    With that idea that burst healing isn't what is important anymore, that would mean that Resto Druids would be the best tank healers because they are the most efficient. Right? But that isn't true. Having a 15k short CD heal isn't going to keep a tank alive, no matter how efficient it is.
    You like writing off classes too much. Our Resto Druid went bear for t12, but we actually used Druids to heal tanks on several heroic mode encounters in t11, including Chimaeron. In fact, we had a hard time healing tanks WITHOUT a resto Druid half the time. Think about this: everyone says Druids are OP raid healers, Due to WG and Rejuv. However if you look at a resto Druid's combat logs, even if they are full raid healing, Lifebloom is always a very significant percentage of their healing done. Lifebloom alone actually makes Druids really good tank healers. The only time they struggle is when you have some gimmick mechanic, like stacks on Baelroc or "Low Health" on Chimaeron, because Regrowth is the worst energency heal in the game.

    This goes for the next two quotes. DA will always be better than EoL for tank healing just because DA can stop a killing blow. It softens the next damaging attack. A 1-1.8k hot isn't going to stop a tank from dieing next swing.
    You are still stuck in the last expansion.

    How are your DA's not nearly as big as your PW:S? My PW:S absorbs around 32-34k. My GH crits put up a bubble for around 28k. And no, Holy won't have a ton more crit than disc. Although Holy will have more, you are forgetting discs 15% int and 10% crit from talents keep them pretty close.
    I think Kelesti answered this pretty well.

    How is Serendipity efficient at all? You have to cast two Flash Heals just to have a lower costing greater heal. You are better off just spamming greater heal.
    You need to do more math and actually look at Serendipity's tooltip. No, Serendipity doesn't make Flash Heal more efficient that Greater Heal, but it gets it reasonably close. I get a 6.9 HPM for GH spam and 6.6 HPM for 2xFlash-->GH. It is still a large amount of mana spent very quickly, even if it is an efficient use of that mana, so you can't really spam this combo. But it is an efficient tool in Holy's toolbox.

    A clock salesman is offering to sell me two clocks. The clock on the left is an old grandfather clock that will require a lot of maintenance to keep in working order but even then will slow down, the clock on the right is a nuclear clock that will never slow down and always do it's job correctly. Just because the clock on the left CAN work with a lot of maintenance doesn't mean that it would be the right choice to pick that over the nuclear clock that WILL perform the job better than when the other clock needs fixing. I obviously choose the clock on the right.
    I'm still waiting for the evidence. All I hear is "my clock is better than yours because I said so."

    Also, what evidence have you given me other than "Man this 15k heal is totally going to keep tanks alive because it is on a shorter cooldown and gives an increased chance to crit." You can't depend on crit for tank healing... or healing in general. Every time you use Serenity, there will be a gcd + the cast time of your Greater Heal until another heal lands. If you are tank healing with flash you have already doomed yourself.
    My Serendipity math. Guardian Spirit is much better at saving tanks than PS. Flash Heal is one of the best emergency heals in the game, and Holy has talents to make it better. Test of Faith (our Discipline Priest whines constantly about the healing debuff on Alysrazor -but until he said something, I didn't even realize it was there because ToF pretty much counteracts it). Even Surge of Light procs nearly as often as clearcasting does for Druids when you are healing a single target, and SoL makes Flash instant and free. Don't get me wrong, Disc is great at tank healing, and more efficient than Holy atm thanks to broken HW:Serenity. PW:Shield is a great tank saver for Disc. But Holy's got some unique tools as well and can do just as good in the HPS department (if not HPM thanks, again, mostly to broken HW:Serenity).

    Why would you play Holy as a tank healer when it is (and still will be) much harder to play as efficiently and as effectively in that role than Disc?
    It isn't MUCH more efficint to play disc, it is SLIGHTLY more efficient to play disc. And I give up "lol you don't die every 3 min" for "u can haz one more Shield Wall". I am main spec Shadow, although I've healed several progression encounters (I'd actually never even done H Shannox as Shadow, Holy is nice for that fight), and its the spec I feel more comfortable with. If there's a point where it made sense, I'd respec. But our Disc Priest shows up all the time and we run 10 mans. We've tried double Disc and it usually works out better to have a Holy/Disc combo unless we really need extra PW:Barriers.

    Why would you play Holy as a tank healer when it's AoE healing is so strong and only getting stronger next patch? What would be the advantages of having a Holy Priest in a tank healing position instead of a Disc Priest?
    What if you're sitting in your 10 man raid, and nary a Holy Paladin or Disc Priest can be found? And you are like our raid and have Priests coming out of your ears? Also, GS and Serendipity are really good.

    Disc is predictable, efficient, and better at anticipating damage. Holy is reactive and dynamic with some huge burst in its pocket that it can use on cue. Sure, the tank's health is going to be doing a bit more bouncy bouncy, but Holy is still a very effective tank healer.

    You also seem stuck on how small a heal HW:Serenity is. Don't think of HW:Serenity as "a 15k heal with a short buff". Think of it as "congratulations, all your spells cost 5-10% less mana when you heal this target."
    Last edited by Felade; 2011-10-17 at 02:35 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    This goes for the next two quotes. DA will always be better than EoL for tank healing just because DA can stop a killing blow. It softens the next damaging attack. A 1-1.8k hot isn't going to stop a tank from dieing next swing.
    You are still stuck in the last expansion.
    Can I just jump in and say one thing regarding this, a DA shield is in effect increasing the tanks hitpoints above his max which in turn stabilizes incoming damage making large hits seam quite minor, it's true tanks don't really get one shot anymore but at times they can be hit quite hard so giving a tank an extra 30k hit points via a crit does a lot more then a static hot on the tanks normal health pool.

    At one point I have seen my DK tank with an absorb on his head of over 250k that includes his absorbs and mine, if you think of absorbs as hit point gains then the advantage of having them becomes more apparent. Which would you rather a 200k hp tank or a 450k hp tank.
    Last edited by CoolNitro; 2011-10-17 at 02:45 PM.

  4. #24
    Can I just jump in and say one thing regarding this, a DA shield is in effect increasing the tanks hitpoints above his max which in turn stabilizes incoming damage making large hits seam quite minor, it's true tanks don't really get one shot anymore but at times they can be hit quite hard so giving a tank an extra 30k hit points via a crit does a lot more then a static hot on the tanks normal health pool.
    Absorbs are very effective at tank healing, no argument there. The thing about Holy is that it depends on long cast time heals a lot more than Disc, so HOTs actually work very well for this playstyle, because while you are charging up your next Gheal, your EoL and Renew are ticking away, providing a buffer and smoothing out your throughput. DA is very effective, but that doesn't mean Holy is terrible.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    Absorbs are very effective at tank healing, no argument there. The thing about Holy is that it depends on long cast time heals a lot more than Disc, so HOTs actually work very well for this playstyle, because while you are charging up your next Gheal, your EoL and Renew are ticking away, providing a buffer and smoothing out your throughput. DA is very effective, but that doesn't mean Holy is terrible.
    ^^ I'm one of the ones who agrees that holy can tank heal, both specs do basically the same thing but in different ways, Disc adds health and holy recovers it passively via constant ticking hots.

    You said holy depends on long cast times I take it you are referring to discs borrowed time because other then that with the same haste rating holy and disc cast Gheal at the same speed, I rarely cast a shield purely for BT actually the only time I do it in a rotation is in 5 mans for mind seer. And in raids I rely on shields for the + crit not the BT or the absorb to me they are just passive bonuses I get when I cast my crit buff

    What I tend to do to make best use of my mastery is instead of holy's mentality of keeping the tank at 85% and rolling hots I keep the tank at 100% and roll standard heals for DA crits.
    Last edited by CoolNitro; 2011-10-17 at 03:22 PM.

  6. #26
    Look, one can compare raw HPS and raw HPM all day long...

    ...the reason why Disc is better suited for tank healing is because of the way they resolve damage and it's synergy with the way one tank heals.

    First off, you must look at damage patterns. One of the more aggressive damage patterns for a tank healer is when chain casting GH as a filler is necessary to guarantee the tank lives. In this scenario, Disc is more efficient, why?

    (1) Any overhealed crit that would be a 100% waste on a holy priest, is worth at least 40% of the crit in absorbs for the disc priest.
    (2) In a scenario where GH must be spammed, it is far more efficient to have every 6th-ish GH be free of mana cost w/ 25% crit, than a flat 25% crit.
    (3) Every GH cast reduces the recast-ability of PW:S, which is an efficient way to increase single target HPS if needed.
    (4) Power Infusion is a mana neutral "heal harder" button that has no string attached, where as Serendipity requires FHx2->GH to have zero overheal IOT be justified as efficient, and even with it's efficiency, is still a strong mana dump that isn't sustainable. The other catch is a raid healer can use Serendipity as a strong tank saver w/o really giving up anything.
    (5) I'm not certain if this has been mentioned, but Disc's single target heals are 24% stronger via grace, which more than closes the 15% healing bonus by holy.
    (6) PW:S->Penance(BT)->GH/FH(BT) rivals Serendipity FHx2->GH in HPS, but blows it out of the water in terms of total mana spent.

    In short, Disc just has more efficient, synergistic tools for the tank healing function than Holy. With the changes to HW:Se, Holy becomes a better tank healer, but remains an erratic one that can perform the function in a pinch, but not ideal for long term single target efficiency. Again, efficiency in practice, not efficiency on paper or raw throughput.

  7. #27
    Disc tank heals because it has infinite mana while doing so. It also has higher throughput, but the serenity fix will more or less wipe that out. Even after the fix, though, disc will still have infinite mana and holy will not.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that in the event you have to help out with raid heals as the main tank healer, disc raid healing is (usually) stronger than serenity-holy raid healing.

    Finally, when comparing disc crit to holy crit, remember that holy has to run with quite large amounts of spirit, while disc can pretty much get rid of all of it (there's at least 1000 spirit difference between the two specs). This is another 6%+ crit (or 8%+ haste, whatever) that disc has relative to holy.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    What if you're sitting in your 10 man raid, and nary a Holy Paladin or Disc Priest can be found? And you are like our raid and have Priests coming out of your ears? Also, GS and Serendipity are really good.

    Disc is predictable, efficient, and better at anticipating damage. Holy is reactive and dynamic with some huge burst in its pocket that it can use on cue. Sure, the tank's health is going to be doing a bit more bouncy bouncy, but Holy is still a very effective tank healer.

    You also seem stuck on how small a heal HW:Serenity is. Don't think of HW:Serenity as "a 15k heal with a short buff". Think of it as "congratulations, all your spells cost 5-10% less mana when you heal this target."
    You defeated your point by saying this. I can't find a Holy Pally or a Disc Priest, so then I choose a Holy Priest. Ok? So you are still choosing a Disc Priest before Holy.

    25% chance to crit does NOT equate to 5-10% mana cost reduction. Chances are you are already chain casting the next spell. How did that save you mana?

  9. #29
    Chain casting, they're going to take damage again before they're topped up. You have HoTs rolling, you have higher crit chance to act as a buffer zone in addition to said Heal over Time effects. The point is that even when you're chain casting, as long as you're not actually trying to top someone off (Greater Heal crit at 80% when a target already has wings). As long as you're not playing with a Death Knight tank (not all groups have that luxury) with the exclusion of Baelroc, a tank at 80% with rolling HoTs is no different from a tank at 100%. He's not dead, he's going to survive the next hit. Druids were quite good at this in Wrath, and that's still true today (the problem is, if you're Druid/Paladin, Paladin can't raid heal, and the raid can survive between HoTs because Ulduar's "must burst now" model hasn't come back).

    That's how Holy makes its efficiency shine. It would be really good, if Serenity provided a charge of Serendipity on its own, putting a Train of Thought equivalent into Holy's synergy of Greater Heal itself.

    Holy has enough inherent crit to focus away from Crit rating when tank healing. It can choose instead to vie for higher haste and a stronger constant Echo off every heal (unlike Aegis), and as long as you're not healing a Death Knight through heroic content, you'll be more than fine as Holy. This levels the gap, when we haven't been this close to decent since stopcasting/multiranking in TBC.
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  10. #30
    In short, Disc just has more efficient, synergistic tools for the tank healing function than Holy. With the changes to HW:Se, Holy becomes a better tank healer, but remains an erratic one that can perform the function in a pinch, but not ideal for long term single target efficiency. Again, efficiency in practice, not efficiency on paper or raw throughput.
    I'll agree with you, Spiritus, that DA is a better mastery for single targets than EoL (I would say EoL is a bit more generally applicable for raid healing than DA as well). As the OP noted, however, I think the characterization of Holy as "not anywhere near as good as Disc, but maybe, if you're crazy enough to try, its ok." That's just not what the OPs math states, and its not been my personal experience. Yes, Penance and PW:Shield make Disc really, really efficient at single targets, but Holy (will be) in the ball park with the HW:Serenity changes. It is just a different method: Disc anticipates the damage, Holy brings the big bomb when it is needed. It is probably true that in the end, reactive healing just isn't as strong as anticipatory healing, but I don't think they're that far apart.

    You defeated your point by saying this. I can't find a Holy Pally or a Disc Priest, so then I choose a Holy Priest. Ok? So you are still choosing a Disc Priest before Holy.
    I don't assign Holy Paladins and Disc Priests to tank healing because they are better tank healers, I do it because they (especially Holy Paladins) aren't as good at raid healing as the others.

    25% chance to crit does NOT equate to 5-10% mana cost reduction. Chances are you are already chain casting the next spell. How did that save you mana?
    I just got a huge burst from my Serendipity combo that took the tank from 20% to full with that crit, when I was planning to follow up with more Gheals. I saved mana because now, I don't have to cast another heal. If I were Disc, I would still be spamming GH waiting for Penance to come off CD or WS to fall off (of course, assuming that Disc's lower crit rate means it would not crit in this hypothetical situation to prove the point). To paraphrase an old EJ post, Holy is about burst-->lull-->burst.

    Disc tank heals because it has infinite mana while doing so. It also has higher throughput, but the serenity fix will more or less wipe that out. Even after the fix, though, disc will still have infinite mana and holy will not.
    With this change mana efficiency will be nearly the same for both specs. Rapture's good, but it doesn't give you infinite mana. Serendipity already allows Holy to do more throughput. HW:Serenity will just make it more efficient.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that in the event you have to help out with raid heals as the main tank healer, disc raid healing is (usually) stronger than serenity-holy raid healing.
    Actually, that's wrong. Disc doesn't have Grace to help them, so a Serenity POH heals for slightly more than a Disc POH and doesn't have to worry about wasted DAs. Also, Holy has COH, which is as efficient as Penance (not quite as efficient in Serenity of course), only it heals 5 to 6 targets. Unless we're talking shield spamming, a Serenity Holy Priest is still a bit better raid healer than Disc.

    Finally, when comparing disc crit to holy crit, remember that holy has to run with quite large amounts of spirit, while disc can pretty much get rid of all of it (there's at least 1000 spirit difference between the two specs). This is another 6%+ crit (or 8%+ haste, whatever) that disc has relative to holy.
    I'd like to know where you're getting these numbers. My Disc Priest and I run with about the same Spirit, actually. The other day on Rag I had to back him up because he'd run out of mana too. One way to think about HC is that you need more Spirit to get equivalent regen. Another way to think about it is you need 30% less Spirit than you would need otherwise. In a way, Spirit is also a throughput stat for Holy because it allows us to use Serendipity combos more often.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    Another way to think about it is you need 30% less Spirit than you would need otherwise.
    Wrong. Spirit is a Holy Priests ONLY regen. Disc doesn't have to gear for spirit because of Raptue. Taking less spirit because you are Holy is.... not smart. This statement would only be true if no other healing spec had a form of regen outside of spirit.

    How much mana did you just spend with that Serendipity combo? Critting doesn't save you mana because you will already be casting another heal anyway. You can't say Serenity reduces the mana cost of your spells by 5-10% because of a 25% crit chance. You just can't. Disc will also have a flat 24% increase to healing on their main target as well.

    Holy and Disc mana efficiency are not/will not be the same. Disc will always be more mana efficient at single target healing by a lot. Disc tank healing now also has a 10% chance per rapture cd to get 14% max mana back with 4piece.

    Chances are if you have to swap to raid healing as Disc, your DA's will not be wasted. Also, if you are in the situation where DA will be wasted, then EoL will most likely be wasted as well with no damage incoming and every healer topping the raid off.

  12. #32
    Wrong. Spirit is a Holy Priests ONLY regen. Disc doesn't have to gear for spirit because of Raptue. Taking less spirit because you are Holy is.... not smart. This statement would only be true if no other healing spec had a form of regen outside of spirit.
    Rapture provides a certain amount of mana. It scales based on your gear, but it is a specific amount, lets say, for argument 500 mp5 (on this I have no idea if its ball park but just go with it). If you get more Intellect, your raptures will be better. Now, lets say you need 2000 mp5 in order to do most raid encounters. That means two things. You can either get enough Spirit on your gear to provide 2000 mp5, or you can get 1500 mp5 and let rapture do the rest. Similarly, as Holy, you could either get enough Spirit to get 2000 mp5, or you could get 1500 mp5 and let HC provide the other 500 mp5 (again, not specifically making arguments with the numbers, just the general idea). The only real difference between HC and Rapture is that one scales with Spirit, the other scales with Intellect. Some classes' mechanics (Shaman, Paladins before 4.3) don't scale at all. Rapture may be better than HC (I think it is) but they do basically the same thing - give you some extra regen. Healers get most of their regen from Meditation and their mana cooldowns, their talented regen just suppliments it.

    Edit: after writing this, I went back and did the math using my gear in both a Disc and a Holy spec. In my Disc spec, Rapture (assuming PERFECT rapture coverage) gives 1009 MP5. Holy Concentration gives 987 mp5. At least as far as I can tell Rapture and Holy Concentration are pretty even-steven.

    Critting doesn't save you mana because you will already be casting another heal anyway.
    Of course I will, and when I see it crits and tops the tank off I will stop casting my next heal before it lands, thus saving the mana cost of that next spell. That's...kinda how Holy has been played since BC. Stopcasting.

    You can't say Serenity reduces the mana cost of your spells by 5-10% because of a 25% crit chance. You just can't. Disc will also have a flat 24% increase to healing on their main target as well.
    I didn't say anything about Disc's healing in this context. And of course I can say crit reduces the mana cost, that's effectively what extra healing does, and extra crit is extra healing. It provides more green numbers for the same blue numbers. It isn't something you want to be relying on for saving lives, but it will average out as additional efficiency over the fight (unless you are allowing post-crit heals to overheal by not using stopcasting).

    Holy and Disc mana efficiency are not/will not be the same.
    You're right, the OP just showed that Holy will be more efficient.

    Chances are if you have to swap to raid healing as Disc, your DA's will not be wasted. Also, if you are in the situation where DA will be wasted, then EoL will most likely be wasted as well with no damage incoming and every healer topping the raid off.
    Think about hits like Nef's crackles. One big hit, no damage afterward. PW:Shield handles this pretty nicely if you can predict it. DA doesn't do so hot. You have to either waste mana pre-casting POH, or you cast POH after the hit, and watch your mana get wasted as your DAs fall off unused. EoL will happily go on ticking if your POH lands after the hit (as it should).
    Last edited by Felade; 2011-10-17 at 11:09 PM.

  13. #33
    You can use Rapture with Intellect buffs and HoH to get huge amounts of mana back. HC.... stays the same the whole fight.

    Holy will not be more efficient because you will have to do more casting of expensive spells than Disc will to provide the same results. Disc's regen is better than Holy's regen as well. Obviously your opinion on this won't change. So, go ahead and waste Holy's AoE potential on tank healing next patch, and then try apping to top end guilds as a Holy tank healer. PS. You won't get accepted.
    Last edited by Afflictid; 2011-10-18 at 01:50 AM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    Edit: after writing this, I went back and did the math using my gear in both a Disc and a Holy spec. In my Disc spec, Rapture (assuming PERFECT rapture coverage) gives 1009 MP5. Holy Concentration gives 987 mp5. At least as far as I can tell Rapture and Holy Concentration are pretty even-steven.
    I'm assuming you did this in gear heavily optimised for Holy as your result for rapture return is very very low. I get 2300+ MP5 (350k+ over 12min fight) from rapture on Heroic Rag for example.

  15. #35
    Rapture is much higer mp5 zhan holys +mp5
    At full 378 and a few 391's gear, i sit at about 140k mana,
    Givin about 10k mana back on one return.
    Used every 15sec would be 3'333mp5.

    As holy i have about 5k mp5 infight, 1k is base, ie 4k reg from spirit.
    The talent accounts for 30% / 80% = 1500mp5.

    To get such alow regen as disc from rapture, i would have to pop a bubble every over 30sec.
    And this is not accounting for other regen bonusses that disc has over holy due to their higher max mana.

    Disc has more mana available, theirs nothing to discuss there.

    I am actually bit scared that rapture is going te get nerfed...

    Back to topic, i greatly Pprove from the buff to serenity!
    Its defenetly a buff to holys tankhealability.
    But still, I dont see holy beating Disc in the role of a singletargethealer.
    Holy could be better on 2 tanks, thanks to rolling renews, but thats when palys come into play...

    I primary see it as a buff to holys diversity, for exampleas playing the third healer in a 10m, ehen u actually stancedance,
    But not really the attempt of making holy a great tankhealer.
    But who knows, maybe it will turn out htat way.

  16. #36
    Everyone needs to stop over analysing it, and remember the way they have shaped the two specs. Disc is centered around Shielding, and for ages single target healing only (Until they changed grace disc had shit AoE) and Holy is centered around AoE healing, they just give Holy the option of being able to tank heal to suit situations where you are the only healer, they don't want holy to have NO tank healing capabilities at all that would be silly.

    But If you have to tank heal, be Disc. If you have to Raid heal, be Holy.

    and remember Bubbles effectively increase the Health of the tank, and with most tanks now hitting CTC having higher amounts of health will become more important.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themos View Post
    ./waves
    I've been tank healing all of Firelands on 10 man as Holy and haven't felt like I can't do my job ever.
    And yes, I haven't been able to do that with this spec since TBC.
    I started out the FL tier doing 25 mans and have continued HC modes in a ten man group. I have a hard time seeing a Holy priest being as good as a Disc priest on tank healing, especially on 25 man, simply because a Disc priest can provide the EH a Holy priest cannot. Both can "Heal a target from X health to Y health", that is not an issue at all, but on top of being very efficient, a Disc priest can provide the cushion you sometimes need to avoid tank death, especially in transition phases.

    Sure, in an ideal world, you should never need a cushion, someone will always foresee incoming damage and use a clever cooldown, but in reality, things don't always work out that way.

    I am very happy that holy priests will be better tank healers in the next patch. It is definitely needed. However, I still think Disc can bring something to the table as tank healers Holy (and most other specs, maybe with the exception of a mastery stacked Holy pala) never will. This is not saying holy priests won't be decent tank healers; I am sure they will be. In my mind, valuing Disc's EH and efficiency vs Holy's burst, Disc still comes out on top.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Laseen View Post
    I started out the FL tier doing 25 mans and have continued HC modes in a ten man group.
    Ditto


    I have a hard time seeing a Holy priest being as good as a Disc priest on tank healing, especially on 25 man, simply because a Disc priest can provide the EH a Holy priest cannot. Both can "Heal a target from X health to Y health", that is not an issue at all, but on top of being very efficient, a Disc priest can provide the cushion you sometimes need to avoid tank death, especially in transition phases.
    This argument is severely flawed. First off it doesn't mention at all what the differences in EH are between the two specs at all. Back up a claim like that with some math. And second, you are boiling it down to absorbs or no absorbs and that's a red herring. Holy priests *can* cushion as well. We have a PWS that does get used under very specific conditions (it's not a 0 damage absorbing speed boost), and PoM and perpetual Renew/EoL are being completely disregarded.

    At the end of the day, it's not whether spec X can heal better than Y, it's a matter of can X do it or not. And the answer is yes.
    This distinction exists whether you like it or not. Holy *can* currently tank heal. We'll be better at it in 4.3, but that doesn't mean we are not capable of it now.

    Where does it matter? If you're in a 25 man and the Holy priest has a lousy Shadow spec/gear, and the Disc priest has a good shadow spec/gear, and you need to swap one of them to shadow to push some enrage timer, keeping the holy as the tank healer is a viable option. It may not be a popular one, but that doesn't make it nonviable. There are WoLs showing Holy priests tank healing. It's clearly doable.



    Sure, in an ideal world, you should never need a cushion, someone will always foresee incoming damage and use a clever cooldown, but in reality, things don't always work out that way.
    On the rare occasion I do need to cushion the tank (this might happen on a high movement fight) ... I'll just load up a PoM and PW Shield on them. Just b/c Im Holy doesn't mean I can't PWS. The extra cushion a Disc provides basically boils down to the boost from Mastery in this case. And Holy's Mastery is ticking away as well.. EoL ticks are significant in the EH of a Holy priest. And then there is the perpetual Renew. It's quite nice.

    I am very happy that holy priests will be better tank healers in the next patch. It is definitely needed. However, I still think Disc can bring something to the table as tank healers Holy (and most other specs, maybe with the exception of a mastery stacked Holy pala) never will. This is not saying holy priests won't be decent tank healers; I am sure they will be. In my mind, valuing Disc's EH and efficiency vs Holy's burst, Disc still comes out on top.
    This opinion is heavily influenced by a bias towards absorbs as if it's some magic pony.


    The only place I can think of in FL's where Topping off and cushioning the tank is important and that's on Baeloric during decimation. And on that specific mechanic, the burst getting the tank up trumps any cushion. Holy can handle that fine.
    Last edited by Themos; 2011-10-19 at 02:27 PM.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themos View Post
    This argument is severely flawed. First off it doesn't mention at all what the differences in EH are between the two specs at all. Back up a claim like that with some math. And second, you are boiling it down to absorbs or no absorbs and that's a red herring. Holy priests *can* cushion as well. We have a PWS that does get used under very specific conditions (it's not a 0 damage absorbing speed boost), and PoM and perpetual Renew/EoL are being completely disregarded.
    I'm sorry if I was unclear somehow, but as far as I understand it, EH, effective health, is a tank's health + any effect that adds to that health pool. HoTs cannot by their very nature be added to this category under these conditions. If you define it differently, then I have misunderstood you, but this is the definition I have been accustomed to since early Wrath. Again, I am not saying Holy "cannot tank heal", which in that case would mean I sometimes do what I claim cannot be done. I am not sure why you accuse me of holding this opinion, since I really don't. My opinion is that Disc is the better choice.

    At the end of the day, it's not whether spec X can heal better than Y, it's a matter of can X do it or not. And the answer is yes.
    This distinction exists whether you like it or not. Holy *can* currently tank heal. We'll be better at it in 4.3, but that doesn't mean we are not capable of it now.
    As stated, I am not sure where I stated Holy *cannot* tank heal. I think you must have me mixed up with somebody else. To me, Disc brings more to the table as a tank healer. The main reason (not the only reason) why to me is the EH cushion, which to me is a really useful tool. However, Spiritus posted a very helpful and explanatory post above (no 26) which includes a more comprehensive list.

    I also prefer to tank heal on a Disc priest to a paladin due to PW:Shield and Aegis, for instance. If you don't, that's fine. I am not telling you you can't.

    On the rare occasion I do need to cushion the tank (this might happen on a high movement fight) ... I'll just load up a PoM and PW Shield on them. Just b/c Im Holy doesn't mean I can't PWS. The extra cushion a Disc provides basically boils down to the boost from Mastery in this case. And Holy's Mastery is ticking away as well.. EoL ticks are significant in the EH of a Holy priest. And then there is the perpetual Renew. It's quite nice.
    I know how Holy's mastery works, I do occasionally heal s Holy myself. However, I find tank healing with Disc is smoother, more efficient and more even, which suits me far better.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Laseen View Post
    I'm sorry if I was unclear somehow, but as far as I understand it, EH, effective health, is a tank's health + any effect that adds to that health pool.
    Ah, I thought you meant Effective Healing, which is what sort of numbers we crunch. I'm familiar with the tank term Effective Heatlh, so I'll play along.



    HoTs cannot by their very nature be added to this category under these conditions. If you define it differently, then I have misunderstood you, but this is the definition I have been accustomed to since early Wrath.
    In a very shrewd manner, maybe but reality begs to differ. The only time that absorb matters is if you actually get hit before the absorb wears off. PWShield isn't indefinite health increase after all. Assuming a hit occurs, any HoTs on the target will have opportunity ticks. So strictly speaking, HoTs do contribute to Effective Health. And since Holy has a perma Renew.. it should always be considered. As well as any EoL on the tank.

    But defining a healer's capability around *only* the litmus test of being able to affect Effective Health is a fairly myopic way of approaching what defines a healer's ability to tank heal is not just adding to the effective health but the overall ability to keep up with incoming damage over all.

    In general, if the following criteria is met the tank stays alive:
    inc healing > inc damage

    You can look at overall average values as well as spikes in those values.

    Also, you've failed to address my point that a Holy priest can use PW:Shield if the need for an absorb arises. The current content doesn't have a need for this, but if it ever situationally arises it's there. PWS isn't a 0 dmg absorb for Holy.


    Again, I am not saying Holy "cannot tank heal", which in that case would mean I sometimes do what I claim cannot be done. I am not sure why you accuse me of holding this opinion, since I really don't.
    I never made such a claim toward you.


    My opinion is that Disc is the better choice.
    Yes, I'm aware. I'm not arguing Holy is better. I'm not arguing Holy is worse.
    What I am saying is that Holy can do it, and does it reliably well.


    As stated, I am not sure where I stated Holy *cannot* tank heal. I think you must have me mixed up with somebody else.
    Never did. It went something like this though:

    1) I said I'm holy and I tank heal
    2) You said Disc is better b/c of *Stuff*
    3) I said, it doesn't matter if Disc is better than Holy .. only that Holy *can* do it.. and Disc's *stuff* isn't all that.
    4) You said I didn't say Holy can't tank heal

    And then I stop and flail around with my arms raised b/c I don't want to get into a pointless spec comparison discussion. This isn't DPS, more healing isn't perpetually better. Once a certain level of healing is reached, it's 'good enough'. Any more than that is just epeen and circle jerking unless the discussion drifts toward dropping down to one less healer, and in that case the goal post of 'good enough' simply moves back by a specific amount.


    To me, Disc brings more to the table as a tank healer. The main reason (not the only reason) why to me is the EH cushion, which to me is a really useful tool. However, Spiritus posted a very helpful and explanatory post above (no 26) which includes a more comprehensive list.

    I also prefer to tank heal on a Disc priest to a paladin due to PW:Shield and Aegis, for instance. If you don't, that's fine. I am not telling you you can't.

    I know how Holy's mastery works, I do occasionally heal s Holy myself. However, I find tank healing with Disc is smoother, more efficient and more even, which suits me far better.
    I never went anywhere near the comparison of Holy vs Disc
    My arguments rest on Holy's ability to tank heal -- period. Stop turning this into an spec war.
    Last edited by Themos; 2011-10-19 at 07:45 PM.

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