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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themos View Post
    In a very shrewd manner, maybe but reality begs to differ. The only time that absorb matters is if you actually get hit before the absorb wears off. PWShield isn't indefinite health increase after all. Assuming a hit occurs, any HoTs on the target will have opportunity ticks. So strictly speaking, HoTs do contribute to Effective Health. And since Holy has a perma Renew.. it should always be considered. As well as any EoL on the tank.
    In 4.3 Perma renew and better Serenity + EoL will certainly go along way to fixing what Holy can bring, which is great. It's needed. However with an absorb shield, you have a certain "grace" period on which it will work when a tank gets hit, with a hot, it will keep on ticking, at even intervals, regardless of the hit. Hence the "EH" exposition. This effect works for both PW:Shield and Aegis as well, both affected by disc's mastery. Divine Aegis often makes up more of my healing than PW:Shield, even while tank healing as SoS Disc. It normally runs to somewhere between 18-25% of my healing done which is a fairly respectable number and shows that Aegis is very useful and quite powerful, too. (And then comes the question whether you should incorporate both PW:Shield and Aegis vs EoL, or not; showing that making comparisons can be tricky.)

    But defining a healer's capability around *only* the litmus test of being able to affect Effective Health is a fairly myopic way of approaching what defines a healer's ability to tank heal is not just adding to the effective health but the overall ability to keep up with incoming damage over all.
    When I picked whether to tank heal as Disc or Holy (while healing alongside a druid) I had the choice of picking Disc, or Holy. I have played both and feel I can handle both. However, when I looked at what the different specs can bring to the table, Disc was the stronger spec, especially when coupled with a strong AoE healer, for instance druid. That is not a "spec war" as I respec depending on the circumstances. Last week I was Holy for Ragnaros (normal, we are not yet there on heroic).

    I don't see a necessary "omg I hate spec X and it can't do Y"; but a discussion about what spec brings what to the table and a list of reasons for picking one over the other. Picking things apart, getting to read the impressions from people who actually run these specs in raids are useful, since it helps my reasoning for picking one over the other. In the end though, it has to be up to each player which one they can handle better and which spec they can get the most mileage out of.

    Also, you've failed to address my point that a Holy priest can use PW:Shield if the need for an absorb arises. The current content doesn't have a need for this, but if it ever situationally arises it's there. PWS isn't a 0 dmg absorb for Holy.
    I'm not sure why this is relevant to refute? Of course you can shield as Holy, if nothing else B&S is built around it. The reason PW:Shield is a staple of the Disc tree is how it works in synergy with the other talents, with the Disc mastery and with Rapture. I don't see the contradiction on holy being able to shield (and often it can be quite useful since B&S can have quite a few applications) with Disc's Shield being deeply integrated in the spec and healing pattern. It's how the entire package works, instead of one certain thing. It has actually been my main beef with the Holy changes for Cata: the lack of synergy within the tree. (Sidetrack to some degree, but I think still something to keep in mind.) The main absorption effect is normally not PW:Shield anyway, but Aegis, which also seems to have a very high up-time.

    Never did. It went something like this though:

    1) I said I'm holy and I tank heal
    2) You said Disc is better b/c of *Stuff*
    3) I said, it doesn't matter if Disc is better than Holy .. only that Holy *can* do it.. and Disc's *stuff* isn't all that.
    4) You said I didn't say Holy can't tank heal

    And then I stop and flail around with my arms raised b/c I don't want to get into a pointless spec comparison discussion. This isn't DPS, more healing isn't perpetually better. Once a certain level of healing is reached, it's 'good enough'. Any more than that is just epeen and circle jerking unless the discussion drifts toward dropping down to one less healer, and in that case the goal post of 'good enough' simply moves back by a specific amount.
    This is true, good enough will do fine in most encounters, but often people aren't interested in what is good enough, but how they can squeeze out the most from their character. This may be because of cutting edge content, but more often because if can help cover shoddy play, a less than ideal setup, lack in raidleadership, poor latency, an old and slow computer, etc. Or maybe as you say, there is interest in dropping a healer cos the DPS can't handle their job.

    I think for most players, what I described is the reality, not that you're (a general you) in a top 250 guild pushing for progression kills with ideal setups of really skilled players.


    I'd also argue that Disc's "stuff" as listed above and in other places, still makes it come out ahead. Closing the gap between the specs = good thing in my mind.

    If the changes to Holy can bring it so it's only slightly less optimal as tank healer than Disc, I think it has come a long way and that it's worth re-evaluating the spec as again, since on some encounters, incoming tank damage is not the main issue to deal with and Holy's versatility as a raid healer can be useful. This is definitely true on ten man at least. It all depends on what you mean to achieve and in what way. In function and optimisation, regardless of the buff to Holy, Disc is still my standard choice for tank healing. However, it makes me happy Holy is getting the buffs, since it opens up possibilities to utilise Holy in a different way and as tank healer as well, with high efficiency.

    But you know, if it turns out that in 4.3, Holy's new efficiency and larger possible throughput trumps Disc's absorbs for that content, I will be speccing Holy as well. Exploring new possibilities is exciting, not a conflict.
    Last edited by Laseen; 2011-10-21 at 07:36 AM.

  2. #42
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    An absorb on a tank is never a waste. Hots and crit% sure often are, just had to add this.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    An absorb on a tank is never a waste. Hots and crit% sure often are, just had to add this.
    Absorbs are often superfluous though, not required. Infact, it could push your other heals into "waste" (not to mention, absorbs can actually be BAD for your Death Knight tank's timing on Death Strikes).

    The only time this makes a difference is if a target would have died the instant they're hit. We don't have encounters like that in current content, or even this expansion.

    Absorb capability can easily be quite superfluous, because for how superior they are you'd think everyone would run Strength of Souls and shield on cooldown. Even when gearing heavy spirit to counter the mana loss that would be, it just doesn't happen. Why doesn't it happen? Because that's just not how encounters work. Plus, Discipline can never actually shield "on demand" because you're either competing against Weakened Soul, or you're losing out on Rapture procs.

    The advantages to picking Discipline at this point in time as a Tank Healer are a) Power Infusion, b) Pain Suppression, and c) better sustainability with Greater Heal. This third one is the actual key. Shaman have this through better returns on Resurgence, and output boosting through Tidal Waves. Paladins have better sustainability through Word of Glory [size=1](or Light of Dawn beacon transfers), and output boosting procs from Infusion of Light. Holy Priests lack this, because our output booster is Flash Heal. Sure, it's efficient, surprisingly so in fact. It's just not sustainable.

    For the gap to truly be narrowed, Serendipity needs to increase its mana reduction for Greater Heal to 15/30% (staying the same for Prayer) and Serenity gives a single charge of Serendipity.

    This, and this alone, would be the steps forward that Holy needs to take to become a viable tank healer. Optimal? Not necessarily. But definitely leaps and bounds above sub-par, and cement it in as viable.
    Last edited by Kelesti; 2011-10-21 at 08:46 AM.
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  4. #44
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    So shields are not that good cause it makes other healers overheal? Hm... Where did I hear this before... Right! On the druid forums^^

    "Shields are often not required"? I believe absorbs saves tanks more often than we know! Preventing>healing afterwards is always better imo.

    About shielding only for Rapture; I for sure can almost spam shields in Disc, even on raid from time to time, however I do have 3k Spirit for my Holy specc. If you are tankhealing with all the talents there is, there is no big loss to put shield every opportunity when it comes to Rapture, you can "heal off" WS with 2x shields in between, about just in time for the next Rapture CD.

    PI, PS, sustainability, yes, better, for sure, than GS. Add to that you can even put PWB on the tank, and as I said, preventing>healing. I am pretty sure we will see absorbs even more useful in the last raid tier of this expansion since generally the amount of CD's brought to all increased (also the tank tiers).

    I agree a manacost reduction is in place for direct heals in Serenity to keep up, and be able to use Serendipity and get 2x heals off before Serenity crit buff falls off. I doubt lowering the CD will make us on pair with other healers, but it sure is a step in the right direction.

  5. #45
    *An example to illustrate the concept, not to be taken as mathematical proof

    If the tank is dying so slowly so that EH is nearly irrelevant, then absorbs are still a critical advantage b/c it allows for the use of more efficient spells. For example, if damage is coming in at 10% every 2sec, and your HW:Se + Heal spell + Renew + Echo can heal up and average of 10% in 2sec, then theoretically, you should be able to cast heal indefinitely as holy. However, IOT to keep that going, you need to keep casting Heal, because the HoT ticks alone will be under 10% and you'll fall behind, eventually needing to cast something other than Heal to get back up to 100%.

    Now take Discipline, who, in the same scenario can resolve 10% damage on average every 2sec. The Disc priest will cast PW:S every 12sec and Heal. If the damage is so light that EH is nearly inconsequential, then that PW:S will last for quite some time, completely removing the need to cast anything else until it's popped. If the damage is so light that PW:S will not even pop in 15sec, then you're talkin' about far less than 10% damage every 2sec, which is a slow, slow death by raid standards. So while that PW:S is up, Disc is casting heal, because why not, and building up DA, PW:S pops, and now there's DA. For every crit, a DA is placed, meaning that the "big waste" of a crit on a full target is actually worth at least 80% of a normal Heal in future prevention. That means, that for every crit, you almost get a free Heal even if the Heal is 100% overheal. That benefit increases with MST, HST, & CRT.

    ========

    While the efficiency of Disc GH is an obvious bonus over Holy, The mere fact that Disc can be efficient in overhealing and that efficiency scales with mastery, crit, & haste, makes it "better" in practice than holy for tank healing.

    Again, in practice, because in a gig where chaincasting is nearly always required, why not pick the spec that can even provide benefits on extreme overheal, considering the fact that it's gonna happen anyways?

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTrueM4gg0t View Post
    Rapture is much higer mp5 zhan holys +mp5
    At full 378 and a few 391's gear, i sit at about 140k mana,
    Givin about 10k mana back on one return.
    Used every 15sec would be 3'333mp5.

    As holy i have about 5k mp5 infight, 1k is base, ie 4k reg from spirit.
    The talent accounts for 30% / 80% = 1500mp5.

    To get such alow regen as disc from rapture, i would have to pop a bubble every over 30sec.
    And this is not accounting for other regen bonusses that disc has over holy due to their higher max mana.
    You forgot to cut the cost of the shield from your rapture returns, that return is not free. With those numbers disc would be sure to get nerfs quickly.

    With 140k mana with inner will a shield cost about 5250 mana and without 6300, rapture on cd (12sec).
    innerwill : a potential 1895 mp5
    innerfire : a potential 1458 mp5

    So if we follow your numbers, regen potentials are not so different (but I rembered disc rapute > HC, + benefits more from others regen mechs and cd's -tide) and then disc sustainability remains somewhere else.

  7. #47
    I use a 33 - 8 - 0 spec ( AA/A, SoS, Att). It's a pretty hybrid spec tho i use that mainly for tank healing.

    I can simply spam all day long. Really can't go out of mana. Sitting around 142k mana pool, over 10k SP raid buffed. Holy Fires pump a decent hps, it's very fast and makes my mana so much better. I pulled something like 16k sustained (around 70% mana no CD used) HPS for the whole HShannox before going all out when boss was like at 7% just for the sake of the recount. Mana return from Archangel starts to be considerable even at just 142k mana pool, and with the upcoming tier mana will be even grater.Considering i use AA in CD even on low damage phases, since at that point i just Heal+HF+Peneance spam and watch my mana going back to full in no time. With 39% bonus i have like 35k + crits from just a normal "Heal"(around 28% crit raid buffed).

    Even porting 4.3 changes to the current release of the game i really can't see Holy keeping up with such a pace in a whole fight. Sure, it will burst a godly amount of healing but i fail to see it's viability in a fight where the tank is under constant bombing.

    Glad to see Holy beeing buffed that much, raid healing always enjoyed much more the quick reactions holy gave to me.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by rafik View Post
    You forgot to cut the cost of the shield from your rapture returns, that return is not free. With those numbers disc would be sure to get nerfs quickly.
    oh come on rafik... sure its not free, but that mana you spend to trigger the manareturn, actually does something! it shields for a buttload!
    I dont count the manacost from PWS, because PWS is a spell you would be using anyways. its not the most efficient spell in terms of hpm, but still one of the best ones.

    or I can say it another way:
    HolyConc gain: 1500 mp5
    Rapture gain potential (according to rafik): 1458 mp5 + about 36k healing every 12sec , ie 3k hps at the cost of 1GCD every 12sec.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    This third one is the actual key. Shaman have this through better returns on Resurgence, and output boosting through Tidal Waves. Paladins have better sustainability through Word of Glory [size=1](or Light of Dawn beacon transfers), and output boosting procs from Infusion of Light. Holy Priests lack this, because our output booster is Flash Heal. Sure, it's efficient, surprisingly so in fact. It's just not sustainable.

    For the gap to truly be narrowed, Serendipity needs to increase its mana reduction for Greater Heal to 15/30% (staying the same for Prayer) and Serenity gives a single charge of Serendipity.

    This, and this alone, would be the steps forward that Holy needs to take to become a viable tank healer. Optimal? Not necessarily. But definitely leaps and bounds above sub-par, and cement it in as viable.

    I don't agree Kelesti, I think Holy's mana wrt single target is perfectly fine. If anything the spec could use some more mana effeciency on the AoE healing front. While tank healing, mana has only been an issue on Baeloric, but even then barely and it's been manageable. Especially if you consider that I'm not sporting spirit cloth in several slots, this argument is quite false this tier.

    I think a key talents for holy's tank healing mana efficiency that many overlook is Serendipity and SoL. While the procs on SoL aren't useful per say, but the opportunity mana returns are. And they very much do add up in a fight. It only takes 2 SoL procs to equal a mana pot, and I get at least double that per fight. Couple that with the mana savings on Gheal from Serendipity from SoL proc FHeals, regular FHeals, and Binding Heals, and it works! I don't struggle for mana when I tank heal. I only need one fiend/hymn combo. I dont rely on mana pots or conc pots and Im not begging resto druids and ferals for innervates.


    Good examples:
    2 healed Heroic Shannox this week and was on the MT, the fight lasted ~5 mins. No issues, if anything I was a bored. I finished the fight with about 3/4 mana pool.
    3 healed Bethtilac, with me upstairs (along with the tank and 2 DPS). I went into p2 with a full mana bar
    Alyzrazor has always been a joke to heal


    Tank healing was definitely not sustainable in a raid setting last tier as Holy, but it most certainly is this tier.

    edit -- to further drive the point home:
    20% of my healing came from Renew on Shannox
    10% from EoL

    ^30% mana free healing
    Last edited by Themos; 2011-10-22 at 02:28 PM.

  10. #50
    As a Holy Priest, get used to raid healing. Not too many guilds are going to ask a Holy Priest to tank heal unless you are short on other healers. In a 5-man we do just fine, but in a raid, we shine as a raid healer. Its really our (current) intended role. Fair or not, we are pigeon holed into the raid healer slot - a slot that in 4.3 we are going to dominate (finally.)

  11. #51
    A flat 15% nerf to literally everything in Firelands means you can currently tank heal as anything Themos.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Afflictid View Post
    A flat 15% nerf to literally everything in Firelands means you can currently tank heal as anything Themos.
    *shrug*

    I've MT healed Shannox as holy pre-nerf, had no issues at all.
    The only difference between then and now, is even with one less healer it's boring and unchallenging.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTrueM4gg0t View Post
    oh come on rafik... sure its not free, but that mana you spend to trigger the manareturn, actually does something! it shields for a buttload!
    I dont count the manacost from PWS, because PWS is a spell you would be using anyways. its not the most efficient spell in terms of hpm, but still one of the best ones.

    or I can say it another way:
    HolyConc gain: 1500 mp5
    Rapture gain potential (according to rafik): 1458 mp5 + about 36k healing every 12sec , ie 3k hps at the cost of 1GCD every 12sec.
    But you either a) Have to be running Strength of Soul to get it to every 12 seconds. Running Strength of Soul means you could be shielding much more than Rapture's timer (as its output is still significant) but you go another 8+ seconds without it, or you limit yourself to untouched Weakened Soul, and already drop your regen. This isn't even going into Avoidance-streaks.

    Yes, Rapture looks to be bigger numbers on paper, but in the real world, they're a lot closer than people give credit for.
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  14. #54
    Disc has much more max mana than Holy, so they also benefit from increased replenishment.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Afflictid View Post
    Disc has much more max mana than Holy, so they also benefit from increased replenishment.
    And Holy benefits more from Mana Tide, as well as Concentration Potions or Hymn of Hope not interfering with your main regen mechanic.

    The point wasn't that they be equal. The point was that they be relatively close. And they are.
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  16. #56
    Ehm...why concentration potions and HoH should interfere with regen mechanic of disc? I feel like i missed something important.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    But you either a) Have to be running Strength of Soul to get it to every 12 seconds. Running Strength of Soul means you could be shielding much more than Rapture's timer (as its output is still significant) but you go another 8+ seconds without it, or you limit yourself to untouched Weakened Soul, and already drop your regen. This isn't even going into Avoidance-streaks.

    Yes, Rapture looks to be bigger numbers on paper, but in the real world, they're a lot closer than people give credit for.
    Yes I run SoS specc, and no, you never get a rapture back every 12sec, thats not feasable.
    What I do is reduce weakend soul as much as possible (heal/GH, depending on dmg incoming) and use PWS whenever its necessairy (ie tank low) or else just for raptures.
    but I had a look at some logs (only got really old ones, doing normals pre nerf) and there rapture gave me everything from 1300 - 2800 mp5. obviously depends on the encounter.
    rapture +15% more int(for all other manapool based managains, and additional reg through spirit) is just better than HC. HC being passive is cool though.
    but theoretically you can use conc pot, hymn, SF and everything without losing hardly any rapture time...
    Oh and dont forget inner focus. thats over 500mp5 aswell.
    Disc just has more managain than holy, thats a fact. (when played properly obviously)

  18. #58
    It doesn't. Bubble for rapture, go into a conc pot, come back up with another rapture ready in 2-4 seconds. Also include that HoH AND Shadowfiend return more mana as disc because of your increased mana pool as well.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Purpleisbetter View Post
    Ehm...why concentration potions and HoH should interfere with regen mechanic of disc? I feel like i missed something important.
    Because when you start to cast Hymn of Hope, or Concentration potions, do you take into account your Rapture timer? Ideally you want to be 5 seconds after Rapture to get your full Hymn off, so you can not only not have lost time of Rapture, but also take into account the +mana from Hymn of Hope.

    Concentration Potions, when you can take the time to actually use them, do you look for the first opportunity to use them? Or do you make sure that Rapture's cooldown goes off first?

    Holy has no such awkard hindrances, Holy Concentration just goes.

    And TheTrueM4gg0t, two things. One, I agree that Inner Focus is huge on the sustainability front. Which is why I advocate Serendipity off of Serenity, to level the playing field a bit.

    Two, I quoted your response to the talents for a Paladin thread. Hope you don't mind.
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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Because when you start to cast Hymn of Hope, or Concentration potions, do you take into account your Rapture timer? Ideally you want to be 5 seconds after Rapture to get your full Hymn off, so you can not only not have lost time of Rapture, but also take into account the +mana from Hymn of Hope.

    Concentration Potions, when you can take the time to actually use them, do you look for the first opportunity to use them? Or do you make sure that Rapture's cooldown goes off first?

    Holy has no such awkard hindrances, Holy Concentration just goes.

    And TheTrueM4gg0t, two things. One, I agree that Inner Focus is huge on the sustainability front. Which is why I advocate Serendipity off of Serenity, to level the playing field a bit.

    Two, I quoted your response to the talents for a Paladin thread. Hope you don't mind.
    Going on a slight tangent here...

    As far as I can tell the HoH increased mana mechanic is totally bugged right now. When the HoH effect ends you lose a % of your current mana as well as your max mana. Doesn't this mean anything gained based on your max mana % has no extra gain?


    eg... you have 100k mana, HoH gives you 200% max mana. you're at 50% mana
    rapture gives 10% mana.

    normal rapture gives you 10k mana takes you to 60k/100k mana.

    HoH procs, you're at 200k mana. rapture procs, you gain 20k mana (80k/200k), HoH ends you're at 60k/100k

    This is what I see happening in game anyway. It doesn't seem to work the same way as int procs.

    The only real advantage I see to HoH is when you're capping your mana whilst spending it.

    eg... (this will be long)

    you have 100k/100k mana, replen is ticking giving you 1k mana (over'heal').
    HoH procs, you have 200k/200k mana, replen is giving 2k per tick.
    you cast a spell for 2k
    replen gives you 2k you're still at 200k/200k
    repeat till HoH ends
    you cast a spell for 2k, you're at 98k/100k
    replen ticks for 1k, you're at 99k/100k
    you cast for 2k, 97k/100
    replen 98k/100k

    so in that situation you are gaining mana... but
    i mean, my maths is terrible and i don't even understand this post now.
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