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  1. #141
    I got Heroic shoulders which bumped me out of limbo land as far as reforging goes. I'm now firmly in Mastery>Haste land.

    Also finally got to 10 posts so I can post links
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...egaia/advanced
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/176167/

    Also I think this is the best for browsing fights
    http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/exodar/legaia/

    Quote Originally Posted by Jigsawe
    Look for where Ultraxion is afflicted prior to 3 ticks from the former Explosive Shot in combination with the refreshment of the next ES.
    No idea how to read that sentence. If you look at the raidbots link for 10H Ultraxion and skip the most recent from when I died, that would be helpful.
    Also any other suggestions to help would be much appreciated

    And finally thanks for all the help, your a perfect example of what makes the hunter community better than any other.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by webwierdo View Post
    I got Heroic shoulders which bumped me out of limbo land as far as reforging goes. I'm now firmly in Mastery>Haste land.

    Also finally got to 10 posts so I can post links
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...egaia/advanced
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/176167/

    Also I think this is the best for browsing fights
    http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/exodar/legaia/



    No idea how to read that sentence. If you look at the raidbots link for 10H Ultraxion and skip the most recent from when I died, that would be helpful.
    Also any other suggestions to help would be much appreciated

    And finally thanks for all the help, your a perfect example of what makes the hunter community better than any other.
    I'll break down the one you linked in a different way, which will hopefully be more clear.


    [21:56:32.258] Legaia casts Explosive Shot on Ultraxion This is an ES prior to LnL and is pretty irrelevant to what we're looking at (Going to italicize)
    [21:56:33.045] Ultraxion afflicted by Explosive Shot from Legaia
    [21:56:33.045] Legaia Explosive Shot Ultraxion 12751
    [21:56:34.051] Legaia Explosive Shot Ultraxion 12751
    [21:56:35.043] Legaia Explosive Shot Ultraxion *26652*

    [21:56:35.043] Legaia's Explosive Shot fades from Ultraxion

    [21:56:40.666] Legaia casts Explosive Shot on Ultraxion ------------ This is where you pressed the 1st ES
    [21:56:41.434] Ultraxion afflicted by Explosive Shot from Legaia ------------ This is where the first ES hit Ultrax (flight time delay)
    [21:56:41.434] Legaia Explosive Shot Ultraxion *26707* ------------ First tick of the first ES
    [21:56:41.654] Legaia casts Explosive Shot on Ultraxion ---------- This is where you pressed the 2nd ES
    [21:56:42.462] Legaia Explosive Shot Ultraxion 12779 --------- Second tick of the first ES
    [21:56:42.462] Ultraxion's Explosive Shot is refreshed by Legaia ----- This is where the 2nd ES landed and refreshed the last dot from the first ES.
    [21:56:42.462] Legaia Explosive Shot Ultraxion *26818* ------------ Third tick of the first ES.
    [21:56:43.453] Legaia Explosive Shot Ultraxion *26819* ----------- First tick of the second ES.
    [21:56:44.439] Legaia Explosive Shot Ultraxion *26818* -------------- Second tick of the second ES.
    [21:56:44.726] Legaia casts Explosive Shot on Ultraxion ---------- This is where you pressed the 3rd ES.
    [21:56:45.457] Legaia Explosive Shot Ultraxion *26818* ---------- Third tick of the third ES.
    [21:56:45.457] Legaia's Explosive Shot fades from Ultraxion ----------- Second ES fades
    [21:56:45.515] Ultraxion afflicted by Explosive Shot from Legaia ------------ Third ES hits Ultraxion
    [21:56:45.515] Legaia Explosive Shot Ultraxion *26658* ------------ Third ES 1st tick
    [21:56:46.520] Legaia Explosive Shot Ultraxion 12755 ------------ Third ES 2nd tick
    [21:56:47.507] Legaia Explosive Shot Ultraxion 12754 ----------- Third ES 3rd tick
    [21:56:47.507] Legaia's Explosive Shot fades from Ultraxion ---------- Third ES fades.

    There should be another shot between when you press the 2nd and 3rd ES, either CS/AS/BA at the moment there is about a 3 second gap between the two, which is way too long. The third ES should follow the same behavior the second ES does, in that it will refresh the last tick of the 2nd ES if you do the rotation properly. Just make sure you fit something between the two, the delay should be between ~1-1.65 seconds between the two depending on what shot you fire.

  3. #143
    Spec Survival
    Item Level 402
    Expectations: at least 45k on ultraxion
    Armory Link: eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/chants-eternels/Wouke/advanced
    Worldoflogs Link: worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-xbwf8g2ff68l7gxm/sum/damageDone/?s=5433&e=5729

    Hello!
    I know that 40k on ultraxion HC10 is not that bad, but i would know what i'm doing wrong.
    Hope you can help me to break the 45k..

    Thanks !

  4. #144
    Ok so my guild broke up and we never logged so I made my own and logged this quick LFR. I know LFR Ultraxion isn't a good fight to judge dps but I just need help on my burst. Before I died I was doing about 42k, my problem is that I feel like I have not enough burst. I only burst to a little lower than 50k but my overall damage is decent. I need to be able to burst in order to hit 40k on 10 man heroic. Please don't focus on my enchanting etc. as I know I have things to improve, i'm mostly asking for help on rotation etc. Also I can't post links so I had to edit them. Any help is appreciated thanks

    Spec: SV
    Item Level: 398
    Expectations:Higher burst, at least 40k on 10M Ultraxion
    Armory Link: us.battle.net/wow/en/character/illidan/Eatshot/simple
    Worldoflogs Link: worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-dnphpjgwn39w8ph2/sum/damageDone/?s=43&e=256
    Last edited by Michaeltt; 2012-03-08 at 07:50 AM.

  5. #145
    Spec: SV
    Item Level: 393
    Expectations:More dps in general based on my current gear
    Armory Link: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Moxygen/simple
    Worldoflogs Link: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0zjar1qanl7oft75/

    My RL says my DPS is fine, but i still feel as if I have a lot to improve, I think i might clip the ES or even delaying it.. Any tips would be most welcome!

  6. #146
    Giving some of these a try to boost my post count a little. I am new to MMO-Champ. Not new to huntering.

    Wouke:

    Easy stuff first: The pet that you were using, Dracko, doesn't have any talent points. Also, one of your rings is missing its enchant. Gear, talents and reforging looks fine otherwise.

    I see you're pre-potting. Make sure you're pre-casting Call of the Wild, as well.

    It looks like you clip ES ticks fairly regularly on Lock and Load procs. Make sure not to queue your next ES in advance before the GCD is over.

    Your BA uptime could be better. There is one 32-second delay and one 30-second delay between your Black Arrow casts on Ultraxion.

    Although, just putting in pet talents will boost your dps by a good 4k. Maybe more.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-11 at 05:31 PM ----------

    Michaeltt:

    Your burst is low because you're not lining everything up correctly. On Ultraxion you are pre-potting (good!), but you don't use Rapid Fire until after your prepot and the first Kiril proc has worn off. Your second potion is only lined up with part of a Kiril proc, nothing else. Similar story on Madness. You do manage to line up Rapid Fire and Call of the Wild there, which is good, but you only use them twice (should be three times on a fight of that length) and both times manage to totally miss the Kiril proc, and only manage to partially overlap them with your potion. Also, are you pre-petting? My start-of-fight sequence is always

    Equip Kiril 1min before fight starts
    -10s: cast MD on tank
    -5s: cast Dismiss Pet
    -3.5s: Call of the Wild (just before Dismiss Pet finishes casting)
    -2s: pre-pot and summon new pet
    Fight starts
    wait for Kiril proc (doesn't take more than a few seconds)
    Switch to Spire, cast Rapid Fire
    Admire the pretty numbers

  7. #147
    well basically I try not to overlap RF with Chronohunter, as I feel that is a waste of haste. I guess I could improve on timing in order to overlap more, now that I have engineering the glove bonus seems to really help when I stack with Kiril and pot

  8. #148
    Nome:

    Your reforging could be a little better. I plugged you into wowreforge and could get you to exactly 841 hit and 71 more mastery than you currently have, while preserving your crit. (pretty minor, but every bit helps)

    Just looking at your Ultraxion log for now, and your uptimes could be better. 72.3% on Black Arrow sounds on the low side for a single-target dummy fight. Also, on a 5min29s fight, you could probably squeeze a second Rapid Fire in. Same thing on Madness: 11m48s is plenty of time for a third Rapid Fire.

    You're obviously not casting ES enough. I'm looking at my H Ultra kill from last week, and my fight was 20 seconds shorter than yours, yet I have 5 more ES casts than you. We had the same number of LnL procs, so that can't be the source of the difference. Unfortunately the log browser seems to be bugging out for me right now, so I can't comment on your ES usage other than that.

    Also, same thing as with Michaeltt about lining up your CDs. There's a perfect moment on Ultra where you have Heroism up, and Fury of the Beast, Arrow of Time (wait, why were you using Arrow of Time when you have the Matrix Restabilizer?), and Flintlocke's Woodchucker all proc'ed at once. A potion would have been perfect here. But you had already used yours 1 minute earlier, where there weren't any other buffs up.

    One last thing is that you don't seem to be using a cancelaura macro for Deterrence when you use it to soak the Hour of Twilight and the ele bolt hit on Madness. Deterrence lasts 5 seconds unless you cancel it. That's a lot of seconds where you can't do anything other than Kill Command. Make a macro to cancel it, and use it as soon as the big boss ability is done so you can get back to dpsing right away.

  9. #149
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    Nome and Muscadet you both delaying ES it seems my Ultraxion fight on heroic lasted 5 mins 22 whichs means 7 seconds less then you nome.
    And I have done 82 Explosive shots (my last one ticked only twice since boss died) while u nome did 61 thats very low and you muscadet did 68 which is not better.
    Which means you both are delaying your Explosive shots.
    here are my logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=5516&e=5838

    Read post number 11 here:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ion-(Survival)
    It might help you guys.

    if you have any questions you can contact me ingame!
    Good luck

    9thorder.com | 8/8 HC 25-man | 154 World | Join us!

  10. #150
    Sucrovic:

    You're forgetting about LnL procs. I did 69 Explosive Shots, which is 13 fewer than you. However, I had 6 fewer LnL procs, and my fight was shorter, so that sounds pretty much about right. I assume the RNG gods just favored you on that fight, as my Black Arrow uptime was actually 2% better than yours. Sorry, I can't post links yet, or I would link my log. You are correct though that Nome definitely is delaying their ES and that is negatively affecting their dps. Though not as much as you think.

    Michaeltt:

    The top parsing hunters seemed to be pretty split between stacking every personal CD along with bloodlust at the start of the fight on Ultraxion, and staggering the haste buffs to avoid going under 1s cast time for cobra shot. Personally, I just do the former, since when all my buffs are stacked like that I have so much focus regen that I don't even have to cast cobra shots. But I am honestly not sure which method is technically better. Regardless of what you choose to do, the fact remains that Rapid Fire is best when lined up with an agi or attack power buff.
    Last edited by Muscadet; 2012-03-12 at 02:41 AM.

  11. #151
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    Stacking up every CD along with bloodlust at the beginning is the smartest thing you can do.
    The reason behind is very simple, during the fight you will get fading of light, twice or maybe once between each Twilight,
    therefore its better wasting everything at the beginning of the fight while you have free Tunnel time.
    You are right about him not lining up his buffs together but his main luck of dps is simply delaying Explosive shot.

    P.S the periodic damage done by black arrow was 7.2% out of all your damage but since you done lower ES its shows higher percentage then me.
    I actually had 1 tick more then you.
    Furthermore I didn't log this fight If I would I believe my dps was above 50k I am pretty sure about it.
    Last edited by Sucrovic; 2012-03-12 at 03:29 AM.

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  12. #152
    I was talking about the uptime on the Black Arrow debuff. Of course you should have had more total ticks than me, your fight was longer. But my uptime was 2% higher. This was only worth commenting on because of the massive discrepancy between our LnL procs. I am demonstrating that that was not due to a difference in rotation, just a difference in RNG.

    And my reply was to Michaeltt, who, as far as I can see, didn't delay ES. He asked about his lack of burst. That was due to not lining up his CDs.

    Please stop correcting me without reading what I wrote.
    Last edited by Muscadet; 2012-03-12 at 06:17 AM.

  13. #153
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    I am not correcting nor trying to prove you dumb, the only reason for lack in dps is delaying explosive shots thats all.
    If you are not lining up the CD's you will do abit lower dps but it won't be that bad as delaying explosive shots

    Now about LnL there is no place for rng if you do the rotation correctly LnL will proc via the same ammount every time I even track with need to know you might have 1 more 1 less not 3.
    You seem to get pissed so I won't replay to any of your comment anymore sorry.

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  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Muscadet View Post
    Nome:

    Your reforging could be a little better. I plugged you into wowreforge and could get you to exactly 841 hit and 71 more mastery than you currently have, while preserving your crit. (pretty minor, but every bit helps)

    Just looking at your Ultraxion log for now, and your uptimes could be better. 72.3% on Black Arrow sounds on the low side for a single-target dummy fight. Also, on a 5min29s fight, you could probably squeeze a second Rapid Fire in. Same thing on Madness: 11m48s is plenty of time for a third Rapid Fire.

    You're obviously not casting ES enough. I'm looking at my H Ultra kill from last week, and my fight was 20 seconds shorter than yours, yet I have 5 more ES casts than you. We had the same number of LnL procs, so that can't be the source of the difference. Unfortunately the log browser seems to be bugging out for me right now, so I can't comment on your ES usage other than that.

    Also, same thing as with Michaeltt about lining up your CDs. There's a perfect moment on Ultra where you have Heroism up, and Fury of the Beast, Arrow of Time (wait, why were you using Arrow of Time when you have the Matrix Restabilizer?), and Flintlocke's Woodchucker all proc'ed at once. A potion would have been perfect here. But you had already used yours 1 minute earlier, where there weren't any other buffs up.

    One last thing is that you don't seem to be using a cancelaura macro for Deterrence when you use it to soak the Hour of Twilight and the ele bolt hit on Madness. Deterrence lasts 5 seconds unless you cancel it. That's a lot of seconds where you can't do anything other than Kill Command. Make a macro to cancel it, and use it as soon as the big boss ability is done so you can get back to dpsing right away.
    Hm, maybe i should spelnd some more time at the dummies then, to work on the rotation a bit. I know I delay it sometimes, but now at least i have something more to work on! thanks for the replies!

    EDIT: Do you know how many ES you can squeeze out during a 5 min run versus a HC dummy? If you know i would love to know. After some attempts at the counting (my gf looked at me as if i where crazy) i got up to 233 max and 207 at the lowest
    Last edited by Nome; 2012-03-12 at 03:22 PM.

  15. #155
    I get pissed because you're spreading misinformation. Look, you just did it again in your most recent post. Lock and Load has a 20% chance to proc from every Black Arrow tick. How is that not subject to RNG? If you get a LnL proc on your first BA tick, obviously that's luckier RNG than not get one until your sixth tick, and your dps will consequently be higher. In both cases you're still performing the exact same rotation.

    Want more numbers? In the log you linked, go to "Damage by spell" and add up the Black Arrow ticks and crits. You had a total of 127 ticks of BA on Ultrax. In my log, I had a total of 126 ticks. Now go to "Buffs cast" and look at the debuffs column. Your uptime on Black Arrow was 78.9%. My uptime on Black Arrow was 81.1%. Now look under the buffs column. You had 19 LnL procs. I had 13.

    Now explain to me how you got 6 more procs with only 1 extra tick of BA, if it wasn't due to RNG.

    the only reason for lack in dps is delaying explosive shots thats all"
    is incredibly simplistic and also untrue. Those of us who care about min-maxing will also care about lining up our CDs for maximum effectiveness. Look at the top hunter logs on H Ultraxion. With proper CD lineup, they're breaking 80k dps at the start of the fight. Someone who times their CDs poorly and only peaks at 60k could not hope to compete. "Use explosive shot on CD and you're good" is solid advice for new hunters, but not for more experienced ones like many of the hunters that post in this thread.

    Nome: There's no real answer to your question. ES has a 6 second CD, so you should have 50 of them in 5 minutes. With LnL procs, obviously that goes up much higher, since each LnL gives you 2 free extra ESs and also resets its CD. Generally you can expect at least 1 LnL proc every Black Arrow. BA is a 24s CD, so you can fit 12 of them into a 5-minute window. In theory that means you can expect 12 LnL procs, for a total of something like 74 explosive shots (222 ticks), but sometimes you can get extra lucky or extra unlucky with LnL procs.

    A much better way to figure out if you're delaying ES is by using the Log Browser function of WoL. Pull up all your Explosive Shot casts and LnL procs and check the delay between them. When LnL is not up, it should be as close to 6 seconds as possible. You can import it into a spreadsheet and have it calculate the delay automatically if you want. When LnL is up, then you're checking for:

    - the 1st ES being casted very soon after you gain the LnL aura (within 1 second is ideal)
    - a ~1.1s break (to prevent clipping of ticks)
    - the 2nd ES cast
    - a 2-second break, if you were using Arcane Shot as a filler; slightly longer if you were using Cobra Shot
    - the 3rd ES cast

  16. #156
    I thought that ES wont clip on the second cast so it's ES and then ES instantly after GCD then AS ES; replace AS with CS if you need focus. Also I was wondering during heavy haste phases what is your rotation? I try to get off as many arcane shots as possible but I still can't seem to break 60k, should I be casting more cobra shots or something? Also my crit is a little low, 35% do you think that might be the reason?

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Michaeltt View Post
    I thought that ES wont clip on the second cast so it's ES and then ES instantly after GCD then AS ES; replace AS with CS if you need focus. Also I was wondering during heavy haste phases what is your rotation? I try to get off as many arcane shots as possible but I still can't seem to break 60k, should I be casting more cobra shots or something? Also my crit is a little low, 35% do you think that might be the reason?
    For most people, the LnL rotation consists of back-to-back ES' at the start without a delay, some however, will lose a tick by firing back-to-back and thus need a 0.01s delay between the first two ES'. Your assumption about high haste situations is correct in that it relies on the same premise as any other phase - don't cap on focus and don't delay ES (which means increasing the number of AS' between ES).

    Not quite sure what Muscadet is saying in regards to LnL, but if you need the delay it would look like:
    ES (0.01 s delay) -> ES -> CS/AS -> ES (no delay)

    @Muscadet, if you're looking at the Log Browser the final tick of each ES is incorporated when the next ES is refreshed, so it may appear like someone's losing a tick when they aren't in actuality, which is where I'm guessing you're getting your incorrect information on delaying ES'.
    Last edited by Jigsawe; 2012-03-13 at 03:58 AM.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Jigsawe View Post
    For most people, the LnL rotation consists of back-to-back ES' at the start without a delay, some however, will lose a tick by firing back-to-back and thus need a 0.01s delay between the first two ES'. Your assumption about high haste situations is correct in that it relies on the same premise as any other phase - don't cap on focus and don't delay ES (which means increasing the number of AS' between ES).

    Not quite sure what Muscadet is saying in regards to LnL, but if you need the delay it would look like:
    ES (0.01 s delay) -> ES -> CS/AS -> ES (no delay)

    @Muscadet, if you're looking at the Log Browser the final tick of each ES is incorporated when the next ES is refreshed, so it may appear like someone's losing a tick when they aren't in actuality, which is where I'm guessing you're getting your incorrect information on delaying ES'.
    Also, I don't have vishanka or vial yet.. bad RNG on loot and I was wondering do their procs add recognizable dps during burst? i'm using the trash gun right now.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Michaeltt View Post
    Also, I don't have vishanka or vial yet.. bad RNG on loot and I was wondering do their procs add recognizable dps during burst? i'm using the trash gun right now.
    Vial is a significant portion of dps ranging around 500k or so and scales with procs and whatnot, so yes it is quite nice during burst as well as sustained damage periods of the fight. Vishanka does add damage as well, neither will boost you by an insane amount but they will both help with burst if that's what you're worried about.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muscadet View Post
    I get pissed because you're spreading misinformation. Look, you just did it again in your most recent post. Lock and Load has a 20% chance to proc from every Black Arrow tick. How is that not subject to RNG? If you get a LnL proc on your first BA tick, obviously that's luckier RNG than not get one until your sixth tick, and your dps will consequently be higher. In both cases you're still performing the exact same rotation.

    Want more numbers? In the log you linked, go to "Damage by spell" and add up the Black Arrow ticks and crits. You had a total of 127 ticks of BA on Ultrax. In my log, I had a total of 126 ticks. Now go to "Buffs cast" and look at the debuffs column. Your uptime on Black Arrow was 78.9%. My uptime on Black Arrow was 81.1%. Now look under the buffs column. You had 19 LnL procs. I had 13.

    Now explain to me how you got 6 more procs with only 1 extra tick of BA, if it wasn't due to RNG.


    is incredibly simplistic and also untrue. Those of us who care about min-maxing will also care about lining up our CDs for maximum effectiveness. Look at the top hunter logs on H Ultraxion. With proper CD lineup, they're breaking 80k dps at the start of the fight. Someone who times their CDs poorly and only peaks at 60k could not hope to compete. "Use explosive shot on CD and you're good" is solid advice for new hunters, but not for more experienced ones like many of the hunters that post in this thread.

    Nome: There's no real answer to your question. ES has a 6 second CD, so you should have 50 of them in 5 minutes. With LnL procs, obviously that goes up much higher, since each LnL gives you 2 free extra ESs and also resets its CD. Generally you can expect at least 1 LnL proc every Black Arrow. BA is a 24s CD, so you can fit 12 of them into a 5-minute window. In theory that means you can expect 12 LnL procs, for a total of something like 74 explosive shots (222 ticks), but sometimes you can get extra lucky or extra unlucky with LnL procs.

    A much better way to figure out if you're delaying ES is by using the Log Browser function of WoL. Pull up all your Explosive Shot casts and LnL procs and check the delay between them. When LnL is not up, it should be as close to 6 seconds as possible. You can import it into a spreadsheet and have it calculate the delay automatically if you want. When LnL is up, then you're checking for:

    - the 1st ES being casted very soon after you gain the LnL aura (within 1 second is ideal)
    - a ~1.1s break (to prevent clipping of ticks)
    - the 2nd ES cast
    - a 2-second break, if you were using Arcane Shot as a filler; slightly longer if you were using Cobra Shot
    - the 3rd ES cast
    Statisticly you shouldn't have RNG since it 20% from all black arrow ticks okay so the overall should be the same for both of us.
    I might be favor by 1 proc or less proc
    Like I said my logs are not accurate since I didn't log them my self and if I did I would have more ticks on black arrow and more dps probably.
    I asked you then same question but you just seems to bang me over, english is not my mother tongue.
    So I am sorry if you got the wrong impression.

    About min / max dps with lining up the CD I am not saying I don't do it and don't care about it.
    I simply intended to explain that the first thing you should think of is the rotation since this is what really matters after you master it you can line your CD's
    and get slightly more dps.

    I hope no harm is done between us this wasn't the intention.

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